3 Areas of Staging

I now want to make use of that 'sub-helix' to bring my trains down to the staging areas (3 areas) below (8" inches below) my main deck level. I could see the staging access track (the sub-helix track) entering the center of the back wall of the shed, and splitting off 3 ways, to the right, to the left, and down the center penisula. The tracks going to the right and left sides of the room would likely be some sort of ladder arrangment to build to 6-8 staging tracks each. 

Should they be an ordinary ladder or a modified one? Could they constructed using be Peco small radius (code 100) turnouts which I believe are #5's?

Rather than a 'simple ladder' configuration, should they best be a compound one like Armstrong and yourself have utilized??

I need to do a 'mock-up'.

Rather than the paper templates I chose to just quickly layout some actual turnouts to get a general idea of the access to staging I am considering. I chose my living room carpet to layout the turnouts as my shed has a bunch of junk in there at the moment.
 

Here the 3-way turnout is coming from the TV/stereo cabinette into the 'shed's interior' (represented by the carpet) That 3-way is located in the external helix structure, and sends the trains into the staging level in 3 directions, 1) down the center, and 2) to either side of the shed. The 6" wide laminate floor strip panel represents the thickness of the shed's back wall.
 

There are 2 different size Peco (Code100) turnouts represented here,..... small size (bottom row), and medium size (top row) ones.
 

I believe in this area the small radius Peco's are just fine??
 

The track radiuses at the entering end is a 24" radius. the exit track shown that is leading to the staging track down along the wall (edge of carpet)  is 22". The others (not shown) would likely be 24" radius.

24" Radius Trackage, paper templates

So I decided I did not want to spend $9 each for those Fast Track curves, nor wait for their delivery,...so I made some paper templates of 24" radius trackage,

Here is how things line up utilizing the 'small radius, code100' Peco turnouts. At first I had just 5 tracks for that side
 

Then I got the tracks a little closer together going down that rug edge (inner wall of shed)...
 

Then I got 6 tracks for that staging area. All of the curves are a full 24" radius, EXCEPT for the inner most one at 22"  radius. Likely this one could be made 24" as well if the straight section preceding it was changed, but have one track at 22" shouldn't be a problem for short car trains and engines.
 

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Staging

Key issue is vertical clearance over the staging.  With all those switches, at some point something will go wrong.  Have enough clearance to reach in and lift something out or rerail something.  A minimum of 8" vertical to allow you to lift a car over cars in another track.  

Second issue is track center clearance.  Don't make it minimum in curves.  If you have 2" track spacing on 22-24" radius curves and try to bring the tri-level auto rack by the hi cube auto parts train or have the EWD passenger train with full size cars meet the WWD passenger train with full size cars , you may end up with a side swipe.  At that point, you will need the the clearance parameters listed above.

As far as staging below the main level, not a problem other than its more time the train spends in a hidden track and more time that an operator may spend peering into the void to make sure the train is moving and is OK.

Contemplation

I've had this track laying out in my room for several days (fortuntely wife is overseas at the moment), and I have played with several different turnout arrangements on that inner most track. I've just about come to the conclusion I should just eliminate that track, and be happy with 5 staging tracks per each side.

Besides there is another reason to eliminate it,...more complicated to explain at the moment.

dave1905 Key issue is

I had read quite a number of postings that seem to all indicate that 8" is about minimum you want to provide. And I intend to have a 'real clean' underside to my main deck just above it.
 

I do have some pretty close track spacing where those tracks exit the turnouts, and in the curves as well. In order to avoid side swiping I propose to NOT have any of the staged trans occupy any portion of those curves. All trains will be staged on straight track portions.

Key issue is vertical

Yes, and this very problem happened to me where I had a Shinohara 3-way code 100 turn out jam and the points refused to move to theother side.  Clearance was around 7 inches in this location and 7 1/2inches over the body of the staging yard.  I ended up having to cut an oval shaped hole in the benchwork above to help me get to the turnout, remove it and fix the issue.

My 7 1/2 inches over the main yard was must enough to reach over the top of trains to access trains at the back.

Anything more is better in terms of clearance.

Were those Peco medium turnouts - they looked on the sharp side.  Personally I wouldn't go with anything less than Peco large for long equipment.

3 Way Turnout & Peco Turnout Sizes

I am presently planning on using a Peco 3-way turnout, and that turnout will be in the 'helix box' . It will also have a separate small door to the exterior to access it.
 

I have another idea for accessing and working on the staging area tracks that I will introduce soon,...a removable feature for the staging roadbed.

They are actually the code100, Small radius turnouts I chose to use there.

....Good reviews from another forum

Peco code100, Small Radius Turnouts

I would be interested in hearing other views on this idea of using the Peco 'smalls' in this staging access?

exploded view
 

Hidden

Just make sure that whatever you put in will accomodate ANY equipment you concieve that your will run and that it will be bullet proof for what you want to do, because even with 8" clearance its a royal PIA to work on hidden, under the table staging (which is why I didn't have any on my last two layouts.)  If you even suspect that the curves will be too tight for your equipment or its anywhere near the minimum for any equipment, go larger.

Using Med Radius Turnouts

I just did a quick little redo with MEDIUM radius Peco turnouts. Looks pretty smooth,...

I think I like it even better with these larger radius turnouts. There is now about 2+3/8 inch centers between those curves, ....and a larger clearance down the side (wall) that will be nice for the new steel angle brackets I have in mind for supporting the upper deck just overhead.

Looks much better with the

Looks much better with the larger radius turnouts.It looks a lot better and smoother visual flow

Phil

Construct the Staging Track Level first, or the Main Deck level?

Chicken & Egg Problem (the old,... which came first question)

So now I have a dilemma that probably a lot of folks have experienced,...build the staging tracks first then the deck above them, ...or vice versa??

Naturally you have to believe that building the staging tracks first is the most logical way to proceed, as they might be near impossible to build after a close fitting cover is added over them. But then how do you access the bottom of the main deck to do wiring, and whole host of things to the unfinished (and likely incompletely planned) main deck layout only 8 inches or so over the staging tracks?

And I am particularly concerned about this matter as I am contemplating 3 good size staging areas, and I have yet to decide on a final track plan for the layout.

These are a few of my thoughts at the moment. Both my staging level roadbed and my main deck roadbed will basically consist of shelfs of plywood cantilevered off the wall studding by metal brackets,...perhaps much like those angle-iron brackets suggested by TrainzLuvr

This type of mounting will allow for the most unobstructed access to the staging tracks, and the underside of the main deck. But it will still be near impossible to build the staging tracks and do the other future work to the underside of the main deck with only 8-9 inches of space between these 'shelfs' of plywood, particularly if the shelfs have depth.
 

I intend to build my staging level roadbed first, but in such a manner that it can be detached from its metal wall brackets to gain access to the underside of the main deck. This staging level 'deck' will need to be 'self-contained' in a matter of speaking, so it can be withdrawn from its resting place in large sections, and without a lot of 'connections' (electrical or mechanical) to be fastened and unfastened in the process. In other word the staging level track board(s) need to be detachable from their metal support brackets and moved aside while work is done on the underside of the main train deck above.

Centerline Spacing on those Curves

By varying the short straight track sections prior to those multple curves we can get greater spacing between their centerlines, and greater spacing down the 'fairway' (the straight track sections....ha..ha)

S curve in Staging Access tracks

I've had one party speak to the fact that I have one particular S-curve in my staging tracks. I chose to lay a couple of examples along side the Mediium size Peco turnouts I have definitely decided to use.

On one side is a long crossover by Shinnohari.  On the other side is two Peco examples,...the longer Medium radius turnouts, and then at the outer side the Small radius pair.

 

'Removable' Staging Level Track 'Boards'

I intend to build my staging level roadbed first, but in such a manner that it can be detached from its metal wall brackets to gain access to the underside of the main deck. This staging level 'deck' will need to be 'self-contained' in a matter of speaking, so it can be withdraw from its resting place in large sections, and without a lot of 'connections' (electrical or mechanical) to be fastened and unfastened in the process. In other word the staging level track board(s) need to be detachable from their metal support brackets and moved aside while work is done on the underside of the main train deck above.

So lets start by just considering one side of the staging. We build that one entire side, consisting of those curve tracks coming from the 3-way feeding turnout, and the 5 straight tracks down along the side, onto a very long flat piece of plywood roadbed. The track, its wiring, the turnout control machinery are all attached to the TOP side of this 'staging level board'. Nothing is attached to the bottom side of this board, as that might interfere with the plastic storage bins that can be stacked up below the staging level roadbed.

(see photos below)
 

This staging level board is supported by shelf type 90 degree metal brackets attached to the 2x4 studded wall of the shed,...very much like the upper decks will be mounted.

The only electrical connections that need to be made with this staging level are the buss wires for the DCC power, and the possible power for the turnouts. A 2-pin connector is all that's required for the DCC buss wires. An 8-pin connector is all that's required for the 4 turnout controls (2 wires per each turnout). This is what I was referring to as a staging level deck that is 'self contained',...just the track board with 2 simple sets of unplug-able electrical connectors to the main layout.

This very long staging level board might well be cut into 2 pieces,....the curved head portion, and the long straight track portion. That would make it easier to withdraw these 'staging boards' during major construction on the main deck shelf,...just unscrew them from their bracket wall support brackets and place them outdoors.
(the straight section staging board might not even need DCC buss wires as it will just be RR car storage,..no locos?)

Longer Staging Trackage

With regards to longer tracks in staging, I would note that disregarding the 'curved trackage' at the beginning of staging, the straight tracks are about 12 feet down along the wall,....that is 15 feet (inside dimension of shed length) minus 3 feet (curved track portion), ...about 12 foot long.

12 foot long trains is not all that bad. And if I sought to run even longer trains, perhaps I could have some extra freight cars sitting on staging tracks under the center peninsula that could be added to the end of a train as it pulled out of its staging from the side wall tracks.

Brackets

Brian,

Are you using the white brackets in the photos? If so, may I make a suggestion? I use them to support both my lower and upper levels. For my upper lever I am using a 16" bracket as the bench work is 18" deep and I put the 10" support on the wall. What that does is gives me more clearance on the metal bar that goes diagonally across on the support. Since you only have 8" of clearance, this may give you more space at the back for a track. 

Neal

Brackets

@Neal,

Those white brackets WERE under serious consideration orginally, but the diagonal support arm creates a number of problems with my newer staging track configuration. So likely I will have some new brackets fashioned up out of heavy gauge angle-iron,...something akin to those suggested by TrainzLuvr.

Those new brackets will likely have two cantilered arms sticking out from their flat portion that mounts against the wall. Those two arms will support the staging level track boards and the main level deck. Since there will be no diagonal member any longer, the bracket itself will have to be a little heavier gauge metal, and it will need some additional floor-based supports at the outer edges for the main deck level (even while these additional floor supports may only be required when placing heavy weights on that main deck level,...such as climbing or lying on that deck while working on the upper level).

I have some samples of that heavier gauge bracket metal that I salvaged from the vertical legs of a garage/warehouse storage shelf. i'll take photo later today.

BTW, there is a 'Farm Supply Store' nearby me that has some pretty heavy duty plain old 90 degree brackets with no diagonal support features.

Did you try

Brian,

Did you try to invert them meaning instead of having the longer support on the wall have the sorter support? You pick up the extra space for staging (which I did) and they will hold a lot of weight. 

Just asking...

Neal

Other Replies

What are the dimensions of the Tortoise machines below a plywood main deck? I took a quick look and could not determine it.

I am not particularly enamored with the Tortoise machines even though I seem to have somehow collected up a great many of them. On much of the main deck I hope to just use ground throws of some sort, particulaly as I have those sprung Pecos.

And to tell the truth I still rather like the old capacitive discharge units that I was able to thrown a gang (4 to 5) Atlas twin coil machines with at one time. I also have a number of twin coil machines that were sold by Peco at one time.

In a matter of speaking I will be doing just that. But I wanted to layout that whole staging level before I built the main level over it,...to get the 'comman-to-both-levels wall brackets' correct, and a few other matters. One of the reasons I presented it in this manner is it might be impossible to place all the staging level trackage, turnouts, switch machines onto a  permanently affixed staging board AFTER a permanent main deck had been installed,....the reason for a 'removable staging track board(s)'
 

Interesting Observations by Maxman

Not really.  You are forgetting that there needs to be a support structure under that ring.  So you will either need to raise things up to allow the three-high stack of milk crates to slip under, or eliminate the third crate to allow the track level to remain as you show it.

I'm not convinced.  You haven't said how high off the floor the top of the ring will be.  Once you add the support structure, that distance will be less.  I'm assuming that there will be legs to hold the helix up which you will have to crawl around.

If you crawl under on your hands/knees, you will have to scrunch yourself into a small ball to stand up in the middle of the opening.  And if you slide in on your bottom, you will have to turn yourself into the ball position unless you can stand vertically from your backside.  I don't know anyone who can do that.

And we are not getting any younger.

Storage Under Staging Tracks

3 Plastic Milk Type Cartons
Here I must correct myself, I have found a difference in the height of a number of these type cartons. for instance ...
 

 

and it turns out the 3 'milk cartons' are just a little too high. I am sure there are some that would work, but I'd rather be sure and utilize those 3 'file storage containers' pictured in the middel of that photo.

Even better would be the use of those red coke-cola type containers which I already have a lot of my RR stuff stored in.  I can fit a 7 high stack of those under the staging deck with room to spare. They also fit between the wall studding of 24 inches much better.

Here is a mock up of a staging board over those stroage bins,.. (and that board is just resting on the top of the file storage bins at probably 1/2 inch lower than I propose for the staging level board.
 

In reference to your concern about the brackets that would hold up the staging track boards interfering with storage bins, I offer 2 solutions;
a) Both of these plastic bins I have chosen fit 'between' the stud/bracket spacing,
b) The style bracket needed for this staging track deck is a simple 90 degree bracket with extremely low 'projection' down under the deck's bottom surface,...ie...
 

Person Accessing the Staging Helix

 What if I decided to try to add two loops to the bottom of my planned outdoor helix to take the trains down to the staging level?
 

Would it really be so difficult to access if I were to have to get inside the 'hollow helix structure', to fix a derailment of whatever?...and yes I know I will have to at times.
 

I had a 48" circular metal ring that I placed up on the top of three stacked milk cartons. Why milk cartons,...because it brought the staging track level up to approx the level I was thinking of, So the staging access tracks in the helix structure would be at this level.

Even with this 48" circle I had PLENTY of room to get up inside the helix. Now imagine if my circle is closer to a 60" one (30R helix) I plan on. I am now convinced that I will NOT have to play limbo to get at the interior of this lower helix level.

Hello from the helix