What compromises I might be making

I should elaborate a bit on how I envision the layout.

1. Through passenger and freight (few) trains on the PRR main lines
2. Passenger trains stopping in Johnstown and maybe picking up a car or two because in my weird world there will be a couple passenger trains arriving via the B&O branch from the south (think: detour via Johnstown because the route of the Capital Limited is blocked between Rockwood and Pittsburgh).  So I need a small coach yard
3. The PRR will have a freight yard but the B&O branch might be limited to a siding and an interchange track with the PRR. They may have to share a turntable if I don't have room for a wye.
4. Bethlehem Steel will have a small yard for its operations. It may have operations in a couple places on the layout connected by a single track.  
5. If I have enough town (the PRR passenger station will be a central focus of the layout) then I might try to run a traction line or two (Johnstown was probably the smallest US city to run PCC cars).  

Whew.  

It looks to me

That both of those plans are meant to be islands with walkways on the outside. My space is very similar to yours and I’m having a hard time seeing all that fitting. I could easily be missing something but it looks like long reaches and way too much track.

I’m generally attracted to minimal plans so buildings and terrain has space to develop so take my comments with a grain of salt.

The first plan is a donut, the second an island

The first plan is a 7 x 6 (as the picture is aligned) donut with a duckunder.  At the right side the tracks go behind the view block/back drop and lead to hidden staging.  So from inside the donut there is no reach over 30" and most is 12."  

The second plan is a 4 x 8 island.  I was thinking of expanding it into a donut (not sure if the yard/turntable would be able to stay there).  What I like about it is a double track main and a switching lead (which I could turn into a branch line junction as well.  

I'll work up a sketch of what I have in mind. 

I don't want a "spaghetti bowl" of track and want to have space for buildings and scenery also, but I do want to run some trains and have some switching.  

Mark 

4 X 8

There was an interesting article a few years back in MR magazine about making a photo copy of 4 X 8 plans, and cutting them with scissors to stretch them out to become an around the walls doughnut type layout. It might give you some additional ideas for your potential layout plan.

Thanks, I'll look for that issue of MR

To turn an island into a donut.  

The first donut I posted was from a "Small layout ideas" or some such thing from MR that was taking a 4 x 8 sheet and making a few cuts in it so that it became a different configuration.  I liked this one the best (and it was the only donut).

Mark

Old Fart calling Old Galoot

Probably the biggest consideration - how svelte and flexible are you, and how long will you stay that way? And once your empire is built, how many bodies will be moving around to operate and watch it? i belong to a club with narrow aisles and necessary duckunders, and my body complains at too much bending. Squeezing past the other guys is no fun, either.

I think that you're looking at benchwork around the walls, which is good for your space provided you can get into that central area. If the benchwork is high enough, you could use a rolling chair to get into the donut hole. Or the benchwork could be even higher, like your eye level, to allow for stoop under instead of a deep bend.

You posted a picture from John Armstrong's scripture. Have you paid attention to his concept of a "square" in that same book? For your passenger trains, assuming HO, a square is 34 inches along a side, so your space is 3 X 5.2 squares, or 3 X 6.4 for the 17  ft length. A smaller square means more possibilities but a smaller radius, which can make your trains look uncomfortable in the curves. If you use shorty cars instead of full length, then the smaller radii will be more tolerable. If you're doing N scale then the number of squares is bigger. 

You haven't mentioned grades or more than one level. I will only mention that your B&O branch could be downgrade and disappear under the PRR mainline.

Happy doodling,

DrJolS

Drop in bridges

Definitely look into a drop in bridge section or some other removable swing gate, lift up, or drop down section for access to the inside of the layout, because duck unders or roll unders completely suck. I use the commercially available drop in bridge section from Kam Konnect, that lines up on dowel pins and securely  locks into place, and works great for easy access to the layout. 

Old Galoot's plan was also

Old Galoot's plan was also discussed on MR. His donut plan is from the August 2008 issue of MR. The bench work all cut from one 4'x8' sheet of plywood.

Mike.

How high are the ceilings in

How high are the ceilings in your basement? You could always have the layout height be absurdly tall, like 72" and build a platform for a raised floor that you step up to. In fact this could have added benefits as working under the layout is a breeze.

Hello Old Galoot.  I have

Hello Old Galoot.  I have almost an identical situation with room size vs what I want to accomplish.  Being a bit frustrated with searching for a track plan I like, I ended up looking at European designs, mostly German and English.  Since the average European model railroader appears to contend with smaller spaces availble to model in, I figured it might be worth a shot.  One layout type I ran into is OO scale garden shed layouts.  You might try a google search for Model Railway Track Plans by C.J. Freezer.  Look for tracks plans Trent, Edenvale, and Overton. Another book by mr Freezer is The Model Railroad Manual.  There is a nice single track garden shed layout there. Actually my favorite. 

Edit: I think I have it now.  Here is the Trent layout. 

And the layout I like from

And the layout I like from The Model Railroad Manaul.

Thanks for the feedback!

I'm working in HO gauge (resisting the idea to switch to N and have plenty of space). 

Yes, the donut plan I posted a pic was in a Model Railroader mag "Workshop Tips: Compact Track Plans and Layouts."  I don't subscribe anymore but occasionally buy one at a newsstand or hobby shop.  Anyway, if you subscribe you can see it here:   http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/track-plan-database/2008/06/indiana-and-aurora-rr

I'm figuring I can do a duckunder because I seem to be able to still do a lot of contorsions on this old house we bought and my job is to be making improvements to it.  I was planning on going with benchwork at least in the 40 inch range.  I don't have high enough ceilings in the basement to do what YoHo suggested (it's a good suggestion).  

I'm not figuring that many people will be operating this layout or even visiting.  

But a drop in bridge might be a good way to go (thanks, Moe Line).  

And thanks for the suggestion of looking to European plans. I did a bit of doodling this morning, using the John Armstrong 4 x 8 plan as a template for going from two main line tracks to two plus a local with yard. 

I need to spend more time over in the "one-town layout" blog and see how folks have done that, although I'm not sure that is exactly where I will end up. 

Dr. JolS, I am not yet fixed on a minimum radius but am looking around 30. My passenger cars are streamlined shortys (I think; it's been so long since they were out of the boxes that I'll have to check).  So I'm looking at "squares" around 34".  Armstrong doesn't talk much about donut plans except to point out the duckunder drawback and then he gets around fairly quickly to his favorite, the walk-in.  But I want continuous running and don't want loops and a lot of hidden or two-level tracks, so a walk-in seems to waste space to me.  

I have toyed with the idea of grading this to some extent, and the B&O branch could have some steeper grades being a non-main line.  Maybe a scenic flying junction from the B&O branch to PRR eastbound?  

I can't seem to break out of the actual geography of the town and re-arrange things to take advantage of all of the layout.  I'm jammed up on the "east" and "south" sides of the layout and probably need to move the PRR yard to the "west side" (non-prototypical as the PRR yard was east of Johnstown in Conemaugh and was the western end of the helpers up to Gallitzin.  Since I'm not modeling the helpers I should probably mash it up farther. 

If I get so far afield I can even call the whole city "Marmotsburg" and be done with it.  

Thanks again,

Mark

Part-time donut?

Here's a thought-

How about having the layout with a drop-out bridge section, but usually running it as a point-to-point? You can get much better operations out of that, and can put the bridge in on the occasions when you just want to 'railfan' your layout?

I knew a guy who did that and he stopped using the bridge entirely, going with a point-to-point and only running 'donut ops' when people came by to just watch trains running.

My own layout could have been a loop but I decided on a point to point that looks like an inverted question mark instead.

I've not gotten tired of trains going round and round, and I feel a greater purpose for what the trains are doing as opposed to what in effect looks like an amusement park line with freight cars...

Chair

Chair with castors. Sit on the chair. Push youself under the duckunder into the open area. Swivel around. Stand up. You're home.

Another Plan you maybe interested in?

Hi Mark, Here is a plan from Iain Rice, that may also fit your space and wish list.

http://mrr.trains.com/-/media/Files/PDF/trackplans/2017/How%20to%20Build%20a%20Small%20Model%20Railroad/HOscaleViennaCarthage.pdf

Since your looking at modeling the 1960's thought 1970's, you could eliminate the turntables from the plan. If your local hobby shop carries track planning books, you may also want to look at Iain Rice's Compact Layout design book for more layout ideas?

https://www.amazon.com/Compact-Layout-Design-Planning/dp/0890249962

Leaning toward the "one-town" layout

Today, at least.  With the donut, I'd still have continuous running capabilities, and hidden staging at one end of the layout.  But I wouldn't have the need to operate "point-to-point" as the whole layout would represent such a small area that I wouldn't have two stations or towns at which to drop cars.  

I could eliminate turntables but I'm not sure I have room for a wye.  I haven't yet done much scale sketching yet.  Next step is to read more about the one-town layout concept and see how that configures with the type of RRing I'm interested in/want to model.  I do want to be able to turn locos, for my branch line if nothing else.  I can probably get a wye in although the radii will be tight (as is in the prototype B&O branch line that terminates in Johnstown; the Somerset and Cambria branch).  

Last night's reading was Bruce Chubb's How To Operate Your Model RR.  i got some good info there and will keep digging.   I'll take a closer look at the Iain Rice plan.  I'm saving all these pdfs that you all have been kind enough to include.  

I was over at the "One-Town Layout" blog and thought I was making good progress through the comments until I saw there were 63 pages worth.  Yikes.

Mark

thanks fb61

The more I looked at the Trent layout by CJ Freezer the more I liked it.  I found the book you referenced used online for $5 (shipped from the UK), so while I will be putting pencil to paper in the meantime I'll take a hard look at what Freezer has to say and perhaps I can get thawed out and come up with a serious track plan soon.  

Donuts are tasty

I'm new to the hobby after I retired five years ago. My space is 10 x 12. After trying to design lift ups, downs, sideways, Vulcan cloaking, 54" height duck under donut it was. I'm 6' 4" and the chair thing is perfect. I always wanted to be in the center of my layout. 360 degrees of view maximizes my ability to create an alternate reality. Plus inside views minimize the too tight 24" radius effect necessary for the I want it all in too small a space. Tracking and not hitting something else are my only requirements.  Do yourself a favor. Get some track planning software and use it. Duplicate a plan you like but make sure it will fit your space. Customize it anyway you want. Print out plans full size. That's what I'm doing with Anyrail. There's others. I can't tell you how many digital layouts I've "chain sawed." Cost is only my time. Have fun.

TOMA candidate?

Thanks for the latest comments

My time the last few weeks was taken up with home improvement stuff.  I had not thought of Vulcan cloaking, but I'll take Jeff's word that it won't work.  I'm not sure I could work out the electronics anyway.  I've not had good success with free track planning software, but I'll give the free Anyrail a shot and see how that might go.  

I'm also thinking of starting construction of a module (actually, one side of the layout that would be about 2 feet x 8 feet, so kind of like two modules) that would have one of the signature sights of the layout.   But since that involves a kitbashed passenger station, maybe not... maybe instead do the other side of the layout where I would have some steel mill operations going on, and interchange trackswith the Class 1 RRs that serve the mill.  But Fuzzy's thinking is kind of where I am going.  I could just have some temporary loops connecting my double track main (think a temporary dogbone) and see where things go.  If I did the steel mill side, I could have a lot of switching fun.  So maybe build a switching layout that  has a mainline running through it with un-scenicked return loops.  

It will also give me a chance to decide and try ideas for roadbed, etc.  

Thanks,

Mark