Interesting

You say:

But this is a problem:  The speed of the prime mover is not connected to the speed of the train, so there is no match, there can't be.  You did however, point out a problem of using a system without a display.  All of my NCE throttles have displays, so it never occurred to me.  I wonder if you could set the momentum high enough that you'd see the change of speed when turning off Drive Hold, and adjust the throttle position before a large change in speed occurred?  Then, of course, you'd have to use the brake, just like a real train!

Bart Hollis

Good reason to use a pot throttle and not an encoder throttle

@ Joe and Bart

I appreciated your input guys. I have a feeling there's a lot to learn from each other about the possibilities inherent in the Full Throttle features.

Joe - I lower the top speed of my locos as well. Young kids don't like it when they watch the trains, because they usually want to see trains flying around the layout. But as you pointed it, it lends itself to better throttle control.

Bart - You're right about the prime mover not being connected to the speed of the train. But that's in real life. On our models, unless you are using one of the special Full Throttle features that disconnects the sound from the speed, the sound of the decoder is related to the speed the train is going. That of course is the problem the Full Throttle functions seek to address.

Perhaps my choice of wording though in my description wasn't quite accurate. What I was trying to describe was after drifting a while, when I release the coast button, the prime mover notches up, simulating the engineer adding power to keep the train going at a constant speed. But as the decoder notches up, it will only go up as far as the speed the train is traveling at. So for instance the decoder wouldn't go to notch 8 if the train is only traveling at the speed the decoder would normally have the train going in notch two. Thus the sound seeks out the speed, rather than the speed seeking out the sound, and I avoid that problem of having the train unexpectedly slow down or speed up. 

Your idea of using the brake however intrigues me. I've been trying to think of ways that will allow me to use the brake more. Occasionally I like to set the speed of the train a little higher than I would like on downgrade portions. That way as the train makes its way down the grade I have to apply the brake to slow things down. When I turn the brake off the train starts to speed up again, as if gravity is starting to take over, necessitating another application of the brake to avoid a run away train. Applying the brake like this is a fairly new application I've been experimenting with though. So I've got to play around with it a little more before I'll add it to my Full Throttle repertoire of operating procedures.  

Paul

Unless they have changed the braking system, once you apply the brakes, they stay until not needed.  After an application, they need to stay released for quite some time to allow the entire train to recharge.  They are never, ever applied and released and applied and released as I understood your post to mean.

Now, that's on a real railroad.  Obviously, on your railroad, you can run it as you wish.  Model trains do not run out of air.  And that's a good thing!

Bart Hollis

@ Bart

Good point Bart. Thanks for that info.

I knew the air brakes needed to be pumped up to be released, but I didn't think about the time needed to recharge them on the run. So I guess the brakes are used rather sparingly when running down the main.

I was just trying to think of more options for making use of the brake sound of the decoder.

Drive Hold and ESTOP

We're having a lot of fun with Drive Hold, but it is really easy to forget that it is on and overshoot where you want to stop. We also run with momentum in our diesel fleet. However, many operators aren't accustomed to that. 

On the NCE CAB04PR throttles we programmed the OPTION button for emergency stop, and tell operators that nobody will judge them when they make use of that button. As they become accustomed to momentum, use of the button becomes infrequent. It was also found prudent to disable 3-ESTOP layout shutdown in the command station settings.

Unfortunately it does not seem possible to do this with the CAB06.

Bob

@ Bob

I had to laugh when I read your comment about having the drive hold on and overshooting your stopping point. Been there, done that many times! Since I've changed how I make use of the decoder functions though I've all but eliminated that problem from my operations. 

As for my "option" button, I decided to program it as a shift key. I still have an emergency stop however. I just need to press OPTION - FWD and the train stops immediately. I'm glad to say I don't have to use that combo much any more, so I must be learning something! 

I Use a Drive Hold light.

I programmed the rear light to come on full bright with Drive Hold to help me practice with the Full Throttle features. I'm getting into the habit of checking the light before I touch the throttle. Since I rarely use Drive Hold in back-up moves or switching, it's an acceptable training tool for now.

Paul, your comment regarding the use of idle and notch-8 functions is a really good alternative. I used them early on, but you have reminded me to try them instead of Drive Hold more often. My layout has long steep grades, so the Full Throttle features are very important to me.

I'm spoiled now. Non full-throttle engines seem ho-hum.

The biggest issue I foresee is whether or not visiting operators can adapt to Full Throttle LokSound. Seems some guys refuse to pay attention to simple things like CTC signals, so train handling could be a disaster.

Full Throttle with visitors

I've wondered about this as well.  Because FT allows me to reduce the momentum on my locomotives for quicker, more realistic light power starts - with Drive Hold replacing it where appropriate - I'm concerned that visiting operators may choose to ignore it and instead operate less realistically, starting every train as though they're running light power.

Hey Chris!

What a neat idea!  Seems like a great tool for learning.  I do wonder however, if you'll get too used to having that light and learn to rely on it.  I'll have to try it.  Maybe put a beacon on the cab roof and use that!  Finally!  A use for a roof beacon! 

Bart Hollis

Personal Experience

Like Chris, the Full Throttle features have totally spoiled me. Right now I only have 1 loco with the Loksound decoder. Guess which one gets virtually all the run time? The others have been relegated to sitting on the ready track, waiting for their Loksound transformation.

As to the questions regarding visiting operators, I've got some experience in that regard that I'll share. Visiting operators can be broken down into a few different groups. 1) Those who know nothing about trains be it model or real life.  2) Those who know something about how real trains work, but aren't familiar with the Full Throttle decoders. 3) Those who know about real trains, and have some experience with the Full Throttle capabilities.

Let me touch on those in reverse order:

Group #3 doesn't need to be taught about how trains really work or how the Full Throttle features work. They just need to know which functions you have assigned to which buttons on your DCC system. That involves a little memorizing, but generally sorts itself out fairly quickly with a little practice.

Group #2 knows how a real train should run, but needs to be taught all the capabilities a Full Throttle decoder offers. Even if they have some experience with other decoders, the Full Throttle decoder is a totally different beast. What I usually like to do with such individuals is run a train around my mainline loop with them watching, explaining what I'm doing with the throttle as we go. After that's done, I then let them run the train around the mainline loop giving them directions on what buttons to push and why. That gives them the basics. But I wouldn't trust them to run on their own yet. I joke that they've gotten their learner's permit, but still need someone sitting in the passengers seat with them for a while. It will take a while for them to catch on, but eventually they will get it. This is where I was at when I got my first FT decoder. After running for a few days though, I felt pretty comfortable, and was able to experiment with the decoders capabilities, which led to this post.

Group #1 knows nothing about how a real train works, or how to operate a model. My daughter is in this category. So when we ran trains together the other day I had to do a lot of teaching about how a train would operate in real life and why. That was a lot for her to absorb all at once, much less grasp the nuances of the decoder. So I ran the train around the mainline loop and explained what the train was doing, but didn't say anything about the decoder. Once that was done I let her run the train. Again, I didn't explain anything about the decoder operation, I just told her what buttons to push, and again explained what the train was doing and why. That was enough for her. She certainly couldn't run a train by herself yet, but the smile on her face at the end of our "operating session" showed she enjoyed the experience any way. Next time we get together I'll probably have to go back over everything we talked about the first time, since she won't remember, but that's ok. She'll learn. Once that's done I'd just have her run the FT decoder as if it was a non-FT decoder. Only after she learned how to run a "normal" DCC equipped engine would she then progress to make use of the FT features. Might take a while for her to learn, but if she really wants to, it can be done.

Take it for what it's worth, but I hope this gives a little clarity and provides a way for you to help visiting operators on your layout. 

Luckily, FT features are not required to be used

As long as operators don't select the FT functions on the throttle, they can run trains as they would with any DCC decoder. My gut feeling is most operators are very impatient from what I've seen. We'll see.

Currently, I'm not using a ton of momentum, so the only thing a lazy operator will need to do is wait a short delay after cracking open the throttle.

I'm using no momentum on switch and local freight engines. It's less realistic, but idle and notch-8 functions help a lot. Since Paul's comments reminded me of them, I've started working on methods for switching using FT that seem efficient without hindering the work.

One side note: I have found a use for Drive Hold on a switcher when pulling a track in my larger yard. Since the cut is pulled over the car inventory reader, which uses NFC to read car data, it helps to maintain a steady speed for best reading. Much like a flood loader operation at a mine.

@ Chris - FT for the Yard

I'm glad you posted your latest comments. You're absolutely right about new operators being able to use the Loksound decoder as they would with any other DCC decoder. Sometimes when I feel lazy and just want to watch trains run around without a lot of fuss and muss, I do just that.

I like your idea about using the drive hold for the inventory reader. If I ever decide to put a scale track on my layout I'll make use of that suggestion for weighing the hopper cars loaded with coal. 

I might suggest you try using more momentum though. I've got the momentum on my decoders set almost as high as they can go, and I'm finding it really makes switching in the yard fun. Here's why.

When I'm pulling a string of cars, I usually crank the throttle up to notch 4. The engine or train starts to move gradually gaining speed. But before the train reaches the speed it would run in on notch 4, I throttle back, say to notch 2.

The effect is kind of cool. It's like getting the advantage of drive hold without having to actually put it on. You hear the prime mover sound come up, the train starts, then the prime mover sound decreases as the train makes it's way along the yard track. If I have a long way to go down the yard track, I'll sometimes hit the coast button (you could also hit drive hold here if you wanted) and glide at idle, or I'll just let the train lumber along in notch 2. 

Slowing down to couple is a lot of fun too with the momentum set this way. Especially so if you have the brake squeal set to begin early when decelerating and end just before you come to a complete stop. Which leads to another little thing I learned the other day. 

I was switching in the yard, and every time I went to reverse direction or slow down to couple the brake squeal came on. At first that was cool, but after about five minutes it became really annoying. My first thought was to change the brake squeal CVs but I learned if I notch the throttle down more gradually I could stop the train in about the same distance, but avoid the brake squeal from coming on all the time.

To do that took a little more planning and calculating how far the train would drift before coming to a stop or banging into the car I was trying to couple to. But what fun it was. It was like a game trying to run smoothly to avoid the brake squeal. I'm not a real life engineer, but I've got to imagine this is like an experienced engineer gliding to a stop and avoiding wear and tear on the brake shoes, versus an unexperienced engineer who constantly has to overuse the brake. 

Any way, we find yet more ways to use the FT features on this amazing decoder. Thanks Loksound! You've made my day, and make me feel like a real engineer now!