Shayman51

I'd really like to get started in the hobby, with a focus on the western logging industry of the 20's or 30's.  I'm having a horrible time (as a newbie) finding an affordable source for Shays in particular or other logging locos in general.  I've been dreaming of doing this for three decades, and now that I have the time, it looks as though it may have "inflated" beyond my reach.  Could anyone give me some direction/advise on sourcing these locos?  If I can find them at all they're like $1200 or unpowered.

If would be modeling in HO (HOn3?) if I can even get started.  Thanks in advance for any help you can give me!

Keep On Smokin'!

~Bryan

Reply 0
SD40-Fan

shays

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/HO-Scale-Shay-Locomotives-s/1926.htm Here's a few shays on modeltrainstuff.com. Welcome to the world's greatest hobby!
Reply 0
JC Shall

Close Enough

Well, actually those are Heislers (another type of geared loco).  However these will make a great start to acquiring some logging locos.

Reply 0
Nelsonb111563

HO shays

There seems to be quite a smattering of them on e-bay.  Prices all over the spectrum.

Nelson Beaudry,  Principle/CEO

Kennebec, Penobscot and Northern RR Co.

Reply 0
SD40-Fan

heads up-

I should have mentioned that those from the link are dcc ready -meaning a digital decoder (an 8 pin for these) will need to be accuired separately.
Reply 0
Juxen

HO Climax

You might be able to find a Bachmann Spectrum Climax for under $200 on eBay. Not a shay, but still a good logging engine.

Reply 0
Shayman51

Wow, that was a fast reply!

Wow, that was a fast reply!  Thanks for the link.  Not Shay's, but Heislers are cool too.

Keep On Smokin'!

~Bryan

Reply 0
Ngwpwer

Don't give up

Have just been learning the differences in side rod loco's. The web is a great source most times, right search parameters is the clue for me. Don't have a model railroad club within 2 hour drive, so I rely e-bay and on books,  just to get a feel for the different models out here in the world. Then deciding the era as well as the geographical area is a start. I have a book coming by Richard Appel - Class B Shay Modeler's Handbook. Hope to narrow down my search and still watching the prices go & come. 

Good Luck RJ

Reply 0
Shayman51

Thanks all

Thanks to everyone for the fast replies.  I'm gonna look around ebay some more, and keep hoping someone has the "key to Narnia" where all the HO Shays are locked up )

Keep On Smokin'!

~Bryan

Reply 0
Shayman51

Considering...

Anyone know anything about "United" brand brass?  I just found this Shay on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/United-2-Truck-SHAY-Class-B-Geared-Locomotive-HO-Scale-/152023879157?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

Keep On Smokin'!

~Bryan

Reply 0
Geared Steam

Yes, United Brass Shays

are excellent in detail and running in my experience, also, those Heislers linked earlier are great as they are much more reliable that the Bachmann Shay offerings, as they have a tendency to break the gears on the line shafts, not to hard to repair, just understand that in most cases, with Bachmann you will need to repair them over time. I do have the repair steps on my blog linked below.  The new Bachmann 2 Truck Climax has metal gears, beware of the first generation and also the second 3 truck Climax, I have had issues.

BTW, I do own at least one of every model I mentioned above, and these are my experiences from the last 10 years with these products.  

 

-Dean

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein

http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/

[two_truckin_sig_zps05ee1ff6%2B%25281%2529]

Reply 0
187

Heislers are great

Heislers are a great way to start. Make sure whatever you buy are HOn3  if that is what you want and not get misled into a great loco that is only HO. Blayne

Reply 0
Shayman51

Thanks Geared Steam, I truly

Thanks Geared Steam, I truly appreciate your input.  This blog is awesome!

Keep On Smokin'!

~Bryan

Reply 0
Shayman51

Good Question...

Thanks Blayne, that's really a good question.  I really haven't decided on narrow or not.  I have been leaning HO rather than HOn3 because I thought there might be more options as far as locos and rolling stock.  But is that really true?  Hmmm...

EDIT: Actually I have decided on HO, but not sure if that is/was the right decision.  Gripes!  More decisions to make about decisions.

Keep On Smokin'!

~Bryan

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

The long and winding road...

Dear ??? (ShayMan),

Having been there, I can confirm there is no "key to Narnia",
only a long, narrow, and winding road to the loco shed,
for those who genuinely "want it badly enough",
and are willing to put in the Time and Patience to make it happen...

To explain:

- No matter which of the options listed below matches your particular cup-of-boiler-treatment, understand from the outset that Geared Locos are by-definition far more complex than an equivalent Diesel, or even rod-loco mech. Ergo, if you are not "comfy with tweaking/tuning mechanisms" and treating them with respect, then Shays are not the Model-Loco for you...

- Keystone whitemetal kits fo 18-20t HO Class As are still occasionally available on eBay. The power-up kits from NWSL are rare, but can still occasionally be found. Shopping direct on the NWSL site can provide many of the required parts (motors, shafts, uni-joints, tower gearbox), but the truck sections are AFAIK no-longer-available. Replacing with components from Hollywood Foundry may be possible.

Expect to pay between US$$ and US$$$ 
(depending on whether the seller bundles a NWSL power-up kit or not,
if YES, make sure it's the Appropriate Gauge for your desired mission!)

- Stepping up, we have the 40 - 70t MDC/Roundhouse Shay.
Available in a number of different variants
(HOn3 Class B, HO Class B, HO Class C)

and formats
(Kit with open-frame motor, Kit with Sagami can, RTR HO Class B with Sagami can)

the MDC shay has been the "Rite of Passage" model for many Shay and logging fans.

Unfortunately the vast majority of modellers see "MDC/Roundhouse" on the box, 
think "oh, a shake-the-box kit",
treat the mech with the same disrespect usually reserved for 30-sec MDC/Athearn Boxcar kits,
reap their own reward (runs horribly and noisy, if at all),
get disillusioned and walk away from the hobby...

Thankfully, for those who "really want it" and have the time/patience/respect to build it properly,
(see initial comments above),

the kits _can_ be built up into smooth-running cheap geared-locos, using only the original parts,
(although not always assembled exactly per the instructions,
the instructions should absolutely be heeded, esp the "Note!" callout details,
but the modeller should equally apply a fully-functional set of "how do the mechanics of this work?" common-sense and clean/file/check-for-fit/eliminate-binds/don't-force-parts/etc as required... ),

and can result in smooth slow-running, reliable and satisfying locos.
(I have operated on a number of exhibition layouts with MDC Shays as their main motive power and star performers. Patience and attention-to-detail in assembly was and is key).

For those who want "upgrade parts" (whether they are actually needed or not),
NWSL offer a number of upgrade kits for the tower gearbox,
the centreline driveshafts and uni-joints, and motor options.

Strongly reccomend picking up a copy of Jeff Johnston's "MDC Shay Handbook", it's a step-by-step guide to getting your MDC shay running like a swiss watch.

The good news is that due to the "bad reputation" of these kits,
they can frequently be had for low US$$. "New in Box" units occasionally attract "silly prices",
but the almost-agricultural engineering of these kits mean that even "basketcase, parts only" locos can very-likely be rebuilt "caterpillar --> butterfly" style with suitable levels of patience
(the same patience which was NOT applied by the original owner, thus leading to "basketcase" status!!!),
and understanding of what and how the mech design is actually intended to work.

- If we step up again to the larger Class C 80ton Shays, the Bachmann RTR offerings enter the picture. The initial release batch was a smooth runner and quite reliable. Unfortunately some time after the first batch/initial-release, something went horribly wrong, and reports of split sideshaft-bevel-gears spread like a rash. (Unlike the MDC shays, the B'mann units actually use the sideshaft as the primary mech drive transfer. failure at any point along the sideshaft brings a B'mann shay to it's knees).

Any time B'mann offer spare Shay trucks on their website, they are some of the fastest items to sell-out,
(along with their opposite number item on the On30 Shay, the Gas-Mech axle gears, and the HO Climax gears).

and while NWSL did offer replacement metal bevel gears for some time, most-recent reports suggest that they are no-longer available...

Depending on "how split" the bevel gears are, the die-hard Shay fans have found various ways to repair and reinforce them. Again, it's all about "how much you want it"...

Due to this hit-n-miss state of the gears, B'mann Shays can be found on eBay for a wide variety of price-points, from the "I don't know what I've got, but I think it's broken" US$$
thru the realistic "Caveat Emptor, but it worked when I test ran it" US$$$
to the ridiculous "I guarantee this one's gears are OK (at least they were when I packed and sent it)" US$$$$

- Of course, there is always the brass offerings. Shays have been offered from tiny Class As up to the monster Western Maryland Class D 4-truckers in brass for decades, and vary wildly in pricing and reliability.

For Class Bs and Cs, I would reccomend a United Shay. United got their motors and geartrain sorted in the 80s, and a newer example with NS wheels can be a nice reliable runner, IF you keep the lubrication up to the critical components. It's a game of balance however, as too-much lube (or the wrong type for the part-of-the-mech in question) is almost as bad as not-enough.

United Shays also benefiit (as do Any and All multi-axle locos!) from added pickups on ALL wheels. Most brass geared locos only pickup from "one side per truck", or only 2-wheels-per-truck. Adding pickups so a Class B becomes a "4-wheel-per-side" or "all-wheel pickup" is the singularly most-effective improvement a modeller can make.

Again, these can come up as "I don't know what I've got" Estate Sale items, 
thru to "It's worth millions and that's what I want for it",
and everything in between. Be at the right place at the right time, and you may snag a nice clean smooth-running example with no damage for low US$$$.

There are a few reputable Brass dealers and Auction houses who have a sane-gauge on what such locos are actually worth, and quite a number of not-soo-much dealers who do not. Again, Caveat Emptor.

 

I know it's probably not what you wanted to hear,
but hopefully the above will help guide you in finding "the Shay of your Dreams"...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

"...curving uphill on 6% grade towards the Canungra tunnel, 
with SN697 on point,
and a string of Climax Type 1 cars hauling hoop pine on behind,
somewhere deep in the Aussie Bush..."

Reply 0
Michael Watson

Don't forget train shows

Trains shows are usually a great place to find locomotives at a decent price...and you can always haggle on the price ! I tend to buy stuff that I would normally not look at otherwise, but I get weak in the knees at shows, and have also gotten some incredible deals at the same time.

Michael

Reply 0
Shayman51

Not what I want to hear?

Haha Prof Klyzlr, I want to hear it ALL.  Actually, you didn't scare me at all and I look forward to applying the information you have supplied.  Thanks so much for taking the time to lay it all out!

Keep On Smokin'!

~Bryan

Reply 0
Shayman51

Shows

Thanks Michael, I hadn't even thought of that.  I'll do a search and see what I can find coming up in my area.

Keep On Smokin'!

~Bryan

Reply 0
Shayman51

Jeff Johnston's "MDC Shay Handbook"

Wow, looked for this on the web and found it (all 96 pages) from $50 to $283.  This is gonna be an expensive hobby I fear.

Keep On Smokin'!

~Bryan

Reply 0
187

I think options on power are greater in HOn3

I think options are greater in HOn3 but I could be wrong. What do others think? Blayne

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Yes,...um...I mean No...

Dear Blayne,

Quote:

I think options are greater in HOn3 but I could be wrong.

If you are thinking "Colorado 3' gauge" and take the efforts of Blackstone Models into account, 
(IE Shays, esp Pac NW Shays, are not the focus of your search),

then yes, I guess I'd agree too...

...but that's not what the OP is looking for, 
and Blackstone do not have any plans to release any form of Shay AFAIK...

The above listing pretty much covers what's available in HO/HOn3 Shays. It's:
- old Keystone/NWSL
- old MDC/Roundhouse
- B'mann (watch the gears, HO only)
- or Brass....

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
IrishRover

My second geared loco

My second geared loco was an MDC Roundhouse Class A Climax and a Bachmann 44 tonner mechanism.  I'm building another one of these, but with some changes.  Not a masterpiece, but looks good and runs well.

I trimmed off the wood bunker with its molded on wood, and made a new one out of styrene with Archer rivets.  A length of brass tubing made the stack, and a whistle and bell from my parts assortment completed it.

%20views.JPG 

Sorry the pics aren't very good.  She still needs her bell and headlight.

Reply 0
stevie

logging locos'

I have a roundhouse 3 truck shay. Not completed as I was going to re motor it. Also have a very old PFM benson shay, painted and growls. It has the open frame motor and it is so noisy it never gets run. Also planned to regear and remotor that one. And I have a painted and slightly weathered PFM Sierra 2-6-6-2. It is also a growler. All of these would need remotoring/regearing? The bummer with brass is the bottom fell out of the market. These models are not worth any more than I bought them for 20 years ago. The models available today are high quality and reasonable cost so all the old brass models don't have the same appeal. When you look on ebay, look for the "sold" price. Some people have inflated ideas of what their stuff is worth.

Reply 0
ctxmf74

Logging loco

I don't know if they still make them but many years ago I had an HO gauge Rivarosi heisler that was a very smooth running loco. About the same time I also had a Round house shay that had the amusing habit of winding it's side rod up in the fuzzy white "snow" under the Christmas tree and levering it's self off the tracks and onto it's side.....DaveB

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Regear / Remotor?

Dear ??? (Stevie)

Best way to work out if each loco is a regear, a remotor, or both, is to seperate the motor and gearboxes and test independently. In the case of analog DC, even 3-pole motors can usually be subtly tuned enough to make them reasonably smooth runners, albeit typically current-hungry. (On a previous logging layout, we typically double-headed MDC 3-truckers on the lead of a 24-car MDC 3-in-1 loaded skel car train. The paired Open-Frame motors could draw over an amp on slow start and the analog throttles felt it, but the operation was smooth and the noise was better than the average MDC shay under such conditions).

Brass Gearboxes are another matter. Unless they are a reasonably new box with appropriate material> material gear mating and sequencing, brass-on-brass gearboxes are typically noisy and "growly". Any sign of "whine" may also indicate significant lack of lube from the typically high-rpm shay geartrain. 

In terms of the Sierra, NWSL do paired "HiLo" towers specifically for Mallets, and may well have a "Sierra kit" reccomendation available. 
http://www.nwsl.com/uploads/chap4a_web_09-15.pdf(see page 4-19 under "United")

Everything else being equal:
- A remotor will not reduce noise as much as a regear
​- For rod locos, if you're going to tear it apart enough to regear it, you may as well remotor at the same time.
- Regearing a Shay is often not easy, esp those Shays which actually use the sideshaft as the drivetrain
(central tower gearboxes for Keystone/MDC style "centre driveline + cosmetic sideshaft" are available from NWSL, integrated "steam engine gearboxes" are not,
although if you're OK with pulling and remounting worms you may be able to rebuild a "integrated" Shay gearbox yourself...)
- The NWSL catalog is your bible for any and all regear missions
(even if you are not intending to use NWSL parts, the collected wisdom within the pages is worth studying).

http://www.nwsl.com/NWSL_Online_Catalog.html

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS if you are not keen on regear/remotor/rebuild yourself, there are a number of such "Mech Techs" who advertise here thru MRH. For Shays particularly, "Floyd the Shay Fixer" is an obvious option...  
http://www.shayfixer.com/

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