DKRickman

I don't know why, but I just assumed that everybody knew how to solvent weld plastics like styrene.  I guess it's something I've known for so long that I forgot I had to learn it somewhere.  So, in the spirit of teaching and sharing what I've learned, I'l pass on this tip and a little explanation of why it works.  Hopefully you'll never again feel the need to reach for ACC or Super Glue when you want to bond two pieces of styrene.

My "glue" of choice for styrene is not glue at all.  It's a solvent, called MEK (which stands for Methyl Ethyl Ketone), and is sold in hardware stores in pints, quarts, and even gallons.  In 20 years, I've used less than 2 quarts, with a fair portion of that being lost to evaporation.  Many excellent modelers also recommend lacquer thinner.  I have found MEK to be a little more aggressive at dissolving styrene than lacquer thinner, and also to evaporate faster.  Usually, those are both useful properties, but there are a few cases where I prefer lacquer thinner for the gentler action or greater working time.  Acetone will dissolve styrene and acrylic (like Plexiglas), making it useful for some situations as well.

There are also a number of hobby glues, cements, and plastic welders on the market.  Many of them are based on MEK, some use other solvents.  Some contain a mix of solvents, making them suitable for a wider variety of plastics.  Some contain fillers, making them better at filling gaps between parts.  I have used a few of the commercial products, but I have never felt the need to keep a supply on hand, because MEK, lacquer thinner, and acetone have generally met my needs just fine.

The way these solvents work is by dissolving a layer of plastic on either side of the joint.  That dissolved plastic then fuses into a single piece when the solvent evaporates. Two pieces of styrene literally become one, with no seam, no weak point, and no dried glue to make a mess.  The technique is called solvent welding, which describes the situation quite well.  The joint is as strong as the base material.  However, because there is no glue to fill the gaps, you do need the joint to be reasonably tight before making the weld.  Fortunately, the solvents are quite thin, and will wick themselves into the joint nicely.  My usual technique is to hold the two pieces together, then apply MEK to the outside of the joint, using a long handled artist's paint brush (which I keep with the MEK and never use for painting) to apply it wherever I want it.  I will sometimes apply a little pressure to the parts after applying the solvent, which forces a little styrene to squeeze out.  That fills and minor gaps in the joint, and can later be sanded off for a perfectly smooth and seamless joint.

Another advantage of solvent welding is that, with care, it is possible to use it on painted models without damaging the paint.  I remember one particularly challenging build, a Proto 2000 Mather stock car, where I was able to glue the styrene grab irons to the painted body of the car, without any sign of the glue around the joint.  In that case, the MEK dissolved the paint and styrene, forming a mix which was strong enough to hold the grab irons securely.

Hopefully this will help you save some money, and build neater, stronger models.  I can't really think of a down side!

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
Michael Tondee

Should go without saying....

....but MEK is nasty stuff as far as your lungs are concerned. Be cautious. I keep a can stored in a safe place and just occasionally refill my little bench bottle.

Any experience with  "MEK substitute" as it relates to modeling? I notice MEK is getting harder to find and that's what they have in it's place.

Michael

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
DKRickman

Risk Assessment

I use MEK straight from the can, but it has a fairly small lid which minimizes evaporation, and I make a point to keep the lid on at all times, unless Im actively reaching into the can with the brush.  I cap it between uses, always.  It reduces waste as well as prevents me from breathing too many vapors. In my opinion, it's far less dangerous than breathing many of the other things people do (like cigarettes!), no worse than inhaling the fumes while using an oil based paint in the shop, and worth the risk for the benefit.

Of course, everyone is entitled to make that risk assessment for themselves.  I will say though, for wat it's worth, that any other plastic welding solvent, whether intended for hobby use of paint stripping, is going to be about equally dangerous, and should be used with caution and common sense.

I have not tried the MEK substitute. I believe there was a discussion of it here some time ago, but I cannot recall now the result.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
David Pennington Long Haired David

MEK Substitute

MEK is quite hard to find in the UK (at least for modellers) so I use a substitute.

I buy it from Hannants under the name EMA Plastic Weld. The substance is Dichloromethane (Methylene Chloride).

It evaporates as quickly as MEK and does the same job. It costs £3.25 for 57ml. As mentioned- decant it into a smaller bottle. A) it evaporates less andb) when you knock the bottle over, you don't lose the whole lot.

 

 

David
Hi from the UK
Main man on the Sunset North Eastern and now the Great Western
My Blog: http://www.gmrblog.co.uk

Reply 0
Volker

David,I am a bit surprised.

David,

I am a bit surprised. As far as I read paint strippers containing more than 0.1% Dichloromethane (Methylene Chloride) are banned in the EU since about 2010 from private use and since 2011 only allowed in specialized industries: http://www.paintsquare.com/news/?fuseaction=view&id=7328

So it isn't harmless.

As Ken said everyone has to make its own risk assessment. I did mine more than 50 years ago when I started building plastic aircraft, ship, and truck kits. At that time we didn't even know MEK. We used what was available from the kit manufacturers. I stayed with these and those from Faller, Kibri, Uhu, Pattex to name a few and never felt the need to use MEK or a substitute.

Regards, Volker

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"As Ken said everyone has to

Quote:

"As Ken said everyone has to make its own risk assessment. I did mine more than 50 years ago when I started building plastic aircraft, ship, and truck kits. At that time we didn't even know MEK. We used what was available from the kit manufacturers. I stayed with these and those from Faller, Kibri, Uhu, Pattex to name a few and never felt the need to use MEK or a substitute."

  Yeah, I like Modelmaster in the black container with thin metal spout and Plastruct liquid. They are both small bottles and easy to control the exposure to the fumes. I breathed too much resins, paints,and solvents in my younger days building surfboards and boats so I try to use as little as possible now.......DaveB 

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Michael Tondee

I did not mean to be a wet blanket....

...by pointing out that care should be used with MEK.  It's true that everyone needs to make their own risk assessment and personally I use care with all solvents.  It's just in my mind that MEK can be particularly more nasty than some others. Might just be my perception.

One of my favorite smells in the world is the smell of a hot soldering iron touching solder. Probably not the best thing for me but I've grown up around it all my life and almost can't resist taking a little whiff at the start of a project.

Michael

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
narrowgauge

MEK and safety

Having read this thread, I have to wonder how many of us 'old folks' have survived all the horrible stuff modern chemistry has thrown at us. As a young person (aka teenager) my dad ran a repair shop out of the basement garage. I remember being elbow deep in carbon tetra chloride washing parts (haven't found anything equal to it). To the best of my knowledge it has been banned in the US for 30+ years. Then I started painting cars, now it's lacquer thinner, followed by Imron, follwed by .....    Many of these items are either banned or have severely restricted availability/use.  And yes I know the logic on the carbon tet is that it's effects are cumulative, it never dissipates from the body.

In my case, there were ALWAYS used ijn well ventilated spaces to maximize fresh air for me. My favorite hobby paint (and still is when I can find it) is Floquil (the old lacqure based stuff). Always had a paint booth and good air flow. Using MEK, Acetone, Lacquer thinner or any other solvent requires proper handling, no matter how larger or small a quantity being used. The reason most of these substances are being banned is not as much the substance as the irrational, and improper use thereof. EVERY ONE of these substances carries the same safety warning:  USE IN WELL VENTILATED LOCATION.

Need I say more.....

Reply 0
peter-f

Note: MEK is Quite Toxic.

MEK Causes liver damage (cumulative) and lung irritation (immediate).  What you  may not notice is your long-term health risk.  Use friendlier stuff.  Hobby solvents have elements of MEK in them, and are not as explosive, or toxic.  And they work, too.   STILL: do observe all cautions!

One of my favorite smells is old Testors cement that was so easily abused. Now it's altered to include mustard oil so you don't inhale it. 

Don't know how many times my parents knew I was modeling when they caught a whiff of it./

But the original post is accurate... in UNmodified styrene, ABS, or acrylic, the use of solvents is far more permanent than CA, as the mated parts fuse together. 

Similar common errors occur with Gorilla Glue (polyurethane glue) when used like white glue (wood glue). I'll need to find time before I can elaborate fot you.

 

- regards

Peter

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Bernd

Speaking of Toxic.

How many of you go to work each day following another car and inhale the fumes from said car or live in a smog filled city breathing that wonderful city air. How about each time you fill up your car with gas, your lawnmower or any other engine using gas? Always amazes me at what people think it more dangerous.

Bernd

OK, so now we've hi-jacked Ken's thread.

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
Marc

MEK..........BAAAAAAD

Everybody is free to use any product but if I have a suggestion don't use MEK it's more than a hazardous product.

There is proposal here in Europe to simply banish it from private use and let his use  only for industrials applications; toluène was banished for the same reasons.

We have many glue for styrene; many you describe aren't aviable here in Europe.

I use from years liquid cement from Humbrol whith excellent results.

On the run whith my Maclau River RR in Nscale

Reply 0
Kevin Rowbotham

Inundated with safety

This thread started out with an interesting post on solvent welding styrene.

Unfortunately it has digressed to being about the hazards of using MEK, which we could all learn by reading the label on the can and the MSDS sheet.

I'm sure all the dire warnings were posted in the last thread where it was mentioned.

I've got a gallon of the stuff and have no intention to stop using it.  Naturally I don't use it from the gallon can.  I keep a small A-West bottle with a needle applicator about half full of MEK.  Using this I can apply as much as I need just where I need it.

I've been using a mix of contact cement and MEK to glue tie strips to turnouts.  An idea I got from Central Valley.  It seems to be working well, better than MEK alone.

As long as GMO food is still being approved and were growing canola that's intended to be sprayed with Glyphosate...cause that's healthy...I won't get too bent about which solvents I use in my hobby.

~Kevin

Appreciating Modeling In All Scales but majoring in HO!

Not everybody likes me, luckily not everybody matters.

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

MEK joints : Dimensional stability

Dear Ken,

Leaving the safety aspects alone for a sec,
(I checked and MEK is generally available locally via hardware stores as plastic-plumbing-pipe adhesive,
no "security checks" or other "purchasing restrictions" apparently in force down here...),

two minor issues I've encountered with MEK styrene<> styrene joints are:

Issue 1 - while the MEK is still "wet", the surfaces can be quite slippery. This can lead to pieces slipping out-of-alignment, esp if there is any significant manual force being applied. Equally, as the "flashing-off" point from "wet" to "dry" occurs relatively quickly, the panic caused by "it's slipped, quick get it back into alignment" can be exacerbated if/when the joint suddenly "grabs".

Solution on both counts:
- Setup the joint and alignment between the 2 pieces _first_,
(use clamps, holds, whatever jig-type supports necessary),
with minimum pressure between the 2 pieces,
- apply the MEK
- and then Leave It Alone until the MEK flashes-off and is dry

Issue 2 - given that MEK actually dissolves a portion of the styrene components/surface and amalgamates them together, the actual mating surfaces get "squishy". Result is that one may not necessarily end up with the predicted dimensional assembly. 

EG gluing 2 piece of 0.080" styrene together may not give a reliable 0.160" assembly,
depending on the ammount of MEK and pressure applied to the joint.

Again, not a biggie, as long as you know how to work with the tools-at-hand...

 

I have also seen (although not tried myself) some modellers use styrene dissolved in a small pool of MEK as a "large gap" gap-filling putty...
(makes sense, it's "gooey" like putty,
but will end up amagamating to a styrene assembly as "just more styrene")

As always, stay safe with your modelling,..

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
NevadaBlue

I'll keep using it...

Just think how many people want to protect us from ourselves. 

Anyway, thanks for the tips. Now I'll have to look for a can of MEK since my little bottle is almost gone. 

---

Ken

Reply 0
shadowbeast

Tried MEK once

Never going back. I always use Tamiya thin. It doesn't jam up like the Revell needle bottles do.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

No gel ball ban in WA!

http://chng.it/pcKk9qKcVN

Reply 0
IC7000

Tamiya Extra Thin

Works very well and comes with a nice small brush attached to the lid.

Matthew

Reply 0
Ray Dunakin

I used to use Plasti-Weld,

I used to use Plasti-Weld, but then I switched to MEK which works better and was cheaper since I could get it in large quantities from the hardware store. If I had known it was going to be banned I would have stocked up on it. So far I still have enough left that I haven't been forced to try the substitute. 

Visit http://www.raydunakin.com to see pics of the rugged and rocky In-ko-pah Railroad!

Reply 0
Volker

Original post for newcomers?

I understood the original post intended for those who don't already know how to weld styrene and some other plastics.

My feeling was that for those new to it a warning about MEK should have been included. The experienced styrene modelers should know how to handle MEK correctly.

As said before I never saw a need to use it. And you can't buy it just around the corner in a hardware store or home improvement store here in Germany.
Regards, Volker

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"I understood the original

Quote:

"I understood the original post intended for those who don't already know how to weld styrene and some other plastics.

My feeling was that for those new to it a warning about MEK should have been included. The experienced styrene modelers should know how to handle MEK correctly."

   and ideally the newbies will learn how to use less toxic solvents or at least figure out construction methods that use less of them.......DaveB 

Reply 0
peter-f

Volker - thanks

As to you shooting down my hazard warning... Volker said what Intended to convey  - thanks to him  for that.

Please KNOW YOUR TOOLS as well as their Hazards (At least convey those hazards before you recommend them to UNINFORMED novices!).

I DID not and DO NOT wish to "tell" others what to use (or not use).  I have a small leftover bottle of Testors liquid (c. 1970) containing toluene, which I use when I need to.  Which is rarely.

I, for one, am NOT in favor of babying everyone for their safety ALONE.  But some are not aware of the chemicals they 'play' with, and I advise them to use products that are suitable, effective,  and "least-hazardous."  As such, MEK is overkill.  Especially if the gallon can is deemed a secure lifetime supply.  Once you have that much, you tend to over-use it.

I feel the "household strength" products available in Europe go way too far in securing everyone's safety.  They become impotent in their intended use.  Try degreasing with Windex as a substitute for ammonia. 

Oh, anyone defending MEK mention ventilation, or small containers, yet?

I've vented at those who didn't want to see my advice, and to the rest, I apologize!

- regards

Peter

Reply 0
Kevin Rowbotham

Common Sense...

I hear the word solvent, I assume the product has fumes.  I assume it requires ventilation.  I don't need to be told to use common sense when working with solvents.  Nor do I need to be told to use common sense with adhesives, paints, or alcohol.

Tamiya Thin contains Acetone.  Both Acetone and MEK are Keytones.  Both have similar hazardous properties but MEK is indeed more toxic than Acetone.  Acetone is only RELATIVELY safer than MEK if it used with common sense.

The warnings are on the containers.  MSDS sheets are readily available.  Do several MRH safety police officers really need to post the same warnings without adding anything of real value to the original discussion?

Quote:

Oh, anyone defending MEK mention ventilation, or small containers, yet?

Yes, I did mention the small A-west bottle I use, but in your hurry to vent, you must have overlooked that.  It's a solvent, ventilation is obvious and is specified on the label.  If end users don't read labels then posting safety precautions repeatedly, likely won't help that person who does not read labels anyway.

I do have a lifetime supply of MEK.  I also have a lifetime supply of bullets.  I don't shoot more off as a result of having lots.  Your logic, is illogical.

~Kevin

Appreciating Modeling In All Scales but majoring in HO!

Not everybody likes me, luckily not everybody matters.

Reply 0
RandallG

If I may interrupt the safety

If I may interrupt the safety nannies for a moment.. Some of you guys should go play on a safety site so the rest can talk about modeling. And more specifically gluing of styrene. The safety issue only needs to be mentioned once. Not hijacked into the threats on safety. Lighten up. As Kevin says, it's common sense. I'm pretty sure that EVERY modeler knows not to inhale stuff like solvent or Glue !

It was mentioned that you should apply glue to the outside corner of the joint. Why the outside and not the inside corner? Or does it matter?

Randy

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"It was mentioned that you

Quote:

"It was mentioned that you should apply glue to the outside corner of the joint. Why the outside and not the inside corner? Or does it matter?"

  Generally I use the inside corner as it makes a nice vee to squirt the glue into. Outside corners are sharp and harder to apply to plus they are often painted if it's something like a decorated kit .....DaveB 

Reply 0
Pelsea

The down side

I think the moral here is that when we post about lessor known techniques that are potentially dangerous, we should always mention any hazards and essential precautions. Remember that these posts will live forever on the net, and may get copied without the follow-ups that include apologies or cautions. For instance, when Bernd described his Frankenwelder, he was careful to warn readers that he did not recommend anyone copy his device  because of the danger of severe shock or fire. When you leave the cautions off  two things can happen:

  • Some innocent (13 year old maybe) could be hurt.
  • The thread will be hijacked by safety enthusiasts and by those who argue with them.

A word to the wise is sufficient, and costs nothing.

pqe

Reply 0
railbuilderdhd

I use MEK and I know all

I use MEK and I know all about it. I use a needle from my mother at was used to inject insulin and this way there is only a little contact or exposure to the chemical at all.  I really like this way of applying the MEK because I have so much control.  I have no plans to stop using it but it is funny how I have a second thought about it if my son would want to use it as he is just a child.  As he gets older maybe but as a child I wouldn't want to have him exposed to it.  One reason is he may not be carful enough to protect himself like I do.  He may also get more damage as he has so much more development ahead of him.

Now, I also heard they are going to stop the sale of MEK so I purchased a few cans from the local hardware store.  I don't think I'll ever run out in my or my son's life.

Dave

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