Scarpia

I picked up this little guy in a local auction - I had no idea what it was, and I simply bid blindly on an assorted box.

Turns out he covered my costs pretty well. You can see the original thread here.

The model was identified by another Forum member (shout out to Joe Brugger) as a Ken Kidder brass import, and it turns out he's right on the money.

Now that I have the model, the question is how to update it.  I know I have other things to work on, but this has captured my attention, at least for the moment! 


HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

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Scarpia

Cleaning

I took the model apart, and now wonder, what is the best way to clean and prep brass? 

Suggestions are welcome


HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

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Scarpia

Repowering(?)

The model wasn't running well when I first got it, and after disassembly, I found there was no pickup wire for one lead from the engine. I'm presuming that this instead rubbed against the brass body, which carried the power to the engine as the other lead is soldered to electrically isolated wipers on one side.

I'm not against running this model DC, and note that it's so small that this  motor is itself very visable from the cab (again, nothing I'm against), but I would like to make it run well.

Should I try to remoter it, or just re-wire the other pickup? as it sits above, with DC wires attached to the motor leads, it doesn't really move until 40% throttle, and than it screams, so it's not the most delicate motor around.


HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

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Scarpia

Repowering with NWSL?

I found this on their website

and some quick measurements indicate that the 12270-9 (single shaft) should fit, as the existing motor isn't that small. Has anyone had any experience with these small motors?


HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

Reply 0
Joe Brugger

You might try hooking up the

You might try hooking up the motor to a power source, oiling the bearings lightly, and letting it run for a half hour on 6 volts or so. The starting voltage might drop.  The vertical drive will make remotoring difficult.

It looks very similar to a Far East Distributors 0-4-0 that I found. FED was a NWSL budget brand at one time.

Kidder imported all sorts of small Japanese brass, including trollies and freight and passenger cars.

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Scarpia

Identical

Joe, that looks identical, almost - it's lacking the round number on the side, which the Kidder's seem to have - or was that a user applied detail? Either way I'm sure they're from the same factory from Japan.

I'll try your motor method tomorrow I was thinking that NWSL motor as it should fit vertically where the current one does, and might work if I can get the gear to mount to it's shaft.


HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

Reply 0
Benny

Nice little locomotive, I've

Nice little locomotive, I've had a couple go through my hands - I sell things off when things get tight, and this sort of stuff was some of what went!!

Anyhow, for cleaning and painting brass, I'd suggest taking a hike through this site; its about as good as you can get in this hobby, i do believe!!

http://schutzer.net/Home.htm

Now as for remotoring, your biggest challenge is rememerbing that the locomotive itself is live.  This has impications everywhere from how you remotor it to how you wire it to how you set it up for DCC - and even how you mount the couplers [two live frames = short!]

 

Good luck!!

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Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

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Benny

The last "lubricant" that you

The last "lubricant" that you want to use on any joint or bearing is WD-40.  It works great at first becasue it essentially removes the outer layer of oxygen from the metals, and replaces it with the WD-40 liquid.  WD-40 evaporates quite quickly, and when it does the surfaces treated come back in contact with oxygen and become extremely corrosive, to the point that simply humidity form the Air will lock up the joint altogether.  I had a terrible time removing bolts with the stuff once, and ended up having to get the hacksaw more than once.

The ideal product to use is a light machine oil, such as Labelle - in this case you could use the verson that is not plastic compatible.  The best person I know to consult concerning anything in the motor restoration hobby would be Victor over at Atlas, he hides in the N scale forums for the most part.  Use the wrong materials and you're just going to have to throw out the motor all together.

I do have some experience with this motor that is in your locomotive.  first, the little plate that holds it to the frame is only soldered in; it is Not fun if that joint comes apart.  Second, you might notice that the motor is held together by bolts.  If you loosen up the ends, the motor axle bearings can move around in a million diections on both ends. Guess where I'm going with this!  That's right, this motor gets really ugly really quick if you start tearing it down. 

The hardest part will be removing the worm from the axle, if you choose to remotor - and I would suggest that before getting too far along!!  The difficulty then is placing the motor in a vertical orientation.  It's not a common situation to deal with these days, but if you could get a motor and put that worm on the shaft, you'd be a long ways ahead where you are now.

As for wiring, can motors typically have insulated bodies, so as long as you built a good upport bracket you;d be in business.  Simply tie one lead to the frame mount and drill another frame mount anywhere inside where it will be hidden.

Having fun yet?

 

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Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
BlueHillsCPR

Lubricants

Quote:

The last "lubricant" that you want to use on any joint or bearing is WD-40.

I agree.  I really do not consider WD40 to be a lubricant.  It is a solvent, water displacer, and penetrating fluid, IMO.

I would be more inclined to give a motor a thorough dowsing with a non-flammable contact cleaner and follow it up with a light machine oil myself.

Still I don't doubt the WD40 would clean the gunk out of a motor and make it run better, for a while.  I'm just not convinced it is the best thing to use in this case and it needs to be followed with a decent lubricant, I think.

Reply 0
BlueHillsCPR

Yup, the solution is in the details...

Quote:

After a thorough wash-run with the WD40 (motors out of the models) I also gave them a complete wash of 91% rubbing alcohol to remove any residue left over by the WD40 and then, after complete drying, re lubricated them with a suitable light oil for use with small model motors. Super light oil for the bearings, light oil for the gears, etc.

That sounds like it would do the trick Michael.  In that case, I wouldn't have any issues with the use of WD40.

As for the WD40 as a penetrating fluid, I agree it's not the best and liquid wrench is probably better...I should try it out.  I typically resort to heat fairly quickly because I have an Oxy/Acetylene torch in the shop so it's easy to heat it up or cut it off if need be.

Don't ever let the back and forth on any subject ever stop you from making suggestions!

It's about the exchange of ideas and information and everyone is entitled to have their say.

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Scarpia

call me snob

Call me a snob, but I only use Labelle oils on my locos for lubricants.

I ran the motor for a half hour today after cleaning it with alcohol and relubing the bearing points on the motor. It does run better, and I have put in new wire from the pickup to the engine. I now need to decide where to wire the other one.


HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

Reply 0
Benny

Maybe I should have added

Maybe I should have added more info including the others steps I used. After a thorough wash-run with the WD40 (motors out of the models) I also gave them a complete wash of 91% rubbing alcohol to remove any residue left over by the WD40 and then, after complete drying, relubricated them with a suitable light oil for use with small model motors. Super light oil for the bearings, light oil for the gears, etc. Worked for me...

Now that's a Horse of a different color!!!  I suppose in this case you could use the WD-40 trick - I simply know way too many people who used WD-40 and then nothing more, as if that will yield a long lasting solution!! 

I agree, penetrating fluid is better, I prefer a bit of motor oil myself.

Scarp, I agree with your selection, it's what is on my top shelf.  Haven't used much, and certainly not right now.  I'm 1500 miles away from my storage unit!!!

In the case of wiring, you only have one contact because the second contact is through the locomotive.  There isn;t a wire - it's grounded through the body.  It's like all the old open frame locomotives, they're all grounded to the locomotive frame on one side, and the little wire out the back goes into the tender to pickup power from the opposite rail.  It's the biggest challenge in working with these things because the frame is always "Hot."  There used to be an issue in which if you did not grind off the coupler pockets and use the Kadee coupler pockets on old athearn locomotives, you would get a short as soon as two Athearns touched couplers if the two were pullling power opposite to each other [Unit one with the frame grounded to the left rail, unit two with the frame grounded to the right rail].  It's still an issue here and there when you get to metal locomotives.

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Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

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Joe Brugger

Out of curiosity

I put my FED 0-4-0T on the test track (2 lengths of code 100 with an MRC 1300 power pack) and it ran quite well at low speeds with no tune-up or lube.  Not sure how it would perform over a dead #8 frog, though. From the look of the wheels, it doesn't seem to have been run much, if at all.

Yes, the number plate on the side was a feature of the Kidder imports.

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Scarpia

one of the odd things

one of the odd things about this is the frame doesn't seem to be live.

If I clip a lead to the frame, nada. Touch the motor contact, and the motor spins. I've tried different spots on the model, all with the same result.

I'm going to add wire from the lead to the frame as a test.


HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

Reply 0
Foster Brennen brennen28

My 0-6-0T

Thanks for the post. I now have an idea who made my 0-6-0T that I have had for years. It needs a good cleaning but it runs well for being stored for all these years. I was thinking of trying to convert it to DCC.

Foster Brennen

North Texas Freemo

Foster Brennen 

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Joe Brugger

Might just be oxidation

Might just be oxidation preventing a current path. But if you can jumper it without more disassembly, so much the better. Friend of mine who was a master at making brass engines work used to mount the motors using GE Silicone (this was in the 60 and 70s) and then wire them up, instead of using a 'live' chassis.

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Benny

Outside Frame HOn-3 Verison

I snapped up a little HOn3 version this week, It'll be nice for the narrow gauge some day!!!

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Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

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