I can't seem to figure out

I can't seem to figure out how to add text to the above....so......

It's in DC. It's a configuration so that the train can go around the circuit one way then find its way back around the other way so there will need to be some type of insulators etc. I have no idea how that would work. Thoughts?

Thanks!

Allen

You don't like simple, do you?

You've got 3 major areas where you have return loops/wyes - these are the most complex type of track arrangements to wire.

This is going to be a nightmare to wire and run in DC - are you *sure* you don't want to go to DCC?

Isn't it really just a figure

Isn't it really just a figure "8" with a circle around it?

Allen      I'm far from being

Allen

I'm far from being an expert on wiring, but even to this electrically challenged eye, you have at least three reverse loops which, as Joe said, can be a nightmare to wire in DC. Even using power routing turnouts they're still a bear. Even a rudimentary DCC system would make your life much easier both with wiring and operating the track plan.

Gerry S.

Use three-rail track

It would be easy if you used three-rail track.  Won't have to worry about those troublesome reverse tracks.

If two-rail, make the diagonal track connecting two sides of the oval into a reversible section, as well as the two downward legs of the wye continuing along the right-hand-bottom loop until just before connecting to the oval on the right side.  Train lengths will be limited to the minimum of those two sections unless you only use plastic wheels on all but the locomotives.  Besides electrically isolating those sections, the remainder is dependent upon the type of turnouts used.  On the type of turnouts I use, one needs gap between turnouts that face each other.  If one uses DC, additional powered sections are needed if more than one train is operated at one time.  However, this looks like a one-train layout so you may not to have to worry about that.  Nevertheless, I'm no electrical expert, but maybe someone else can give you additional/better guidance.

Wiring suggestions.

The reverse loops and wye have quite an incestuous relationship (they're very close to each other). Even in DCC with autoreversers this would be a bit tricky.  Let me try to give you some ideas of how to do this without DCC (and autoreversers).

Regard the outer loop and the yard tracks as being the "main" track.  Tracks X and Y are isolated from the outer loop. Track X is isolated by having both rails gapped at A and B. Track Y is isolated by having both rails gapped at C, D, and E.

The turnouts at A and B control the polarity of track X. If A is aligned for track X then X is powered through turnout A.  If B is aligned for track X then X is powered by turnout B. Turnous A and B must NOT be set for track X at the same time to avoid a short circuit.

Track Y is trickier. if C is set then track Y is powered from turn out C. If D or E are aligned for track Y, then the turnout in the middle ot track Y (that I forgot to label) must point to D or E. And track Y is powered by the turnouts at D or E.  Only ONE of C, D, or E maybe set at a time to avoid short circuits.

When I say "powred by turnout" I mean using the auxiliary contacts on the switch machines.

It's late, I'm sleepy and need to hit the sack so I'll leave the actual configuration of the switch machine contacts up to you.  Just make sure that the mechanism use to throw A will clear B (and vice-versa). You need a more complex version of this for the turnouts accessing track Y's turnouts (all 4 of 'em).

Perhaps solenoid switch machines and a diode matrix control system would make sense if hard wiring them. Diode matrices can be used with Tortoises but only with the addition of extra logic. Trac-Tronics used to sell such components but I don't know if they still do.

Hope this is of at least some help! If not perhaps you might consider simplifying the track plan.

Regards,

Charlie

I would not use track Y but

I would not use track Y but the one track of the wye at D. There's a reversing track.

I would use with DC a simple switch for the reverse track.If you work prototypically you have to stop at the turnouts to throw them. This way you can throw the switch for the reversing track too.

Wolfgang

Holy COW! Thanks Charlie and

Holy COW! Thanks Charlie and all....I think you've convinced me to go DCC.(although I don't know much about it) I hadn't given it much though before. The track is pretty much already layed...at least the road bed and some terrain. Gotta run....have to find a second job.

Allen

The price of one high-end locomotive

...will buy you a decent DCC starter set, such as NCE's Power Cab or the Digitrax Zephyr.  Do you already have a large fleet of locomotives?  If not, then this is the perfect time to get started in DCC.  I accumulated a sizeable fleet of analog locos before I converted, and that was what held me back a few years - worrying about all the time and money I would have to spend installing decoders in all of them.

You can get either of these below MSRP if you buy them from Litchfield Station or Tonys Trains - both of them are MRH sponsors.

I was convinced too...

I came back to the hobby thinking I would build another layout and use my existing DC power packs to run it.  The wiring of the blocks and reversing sections was not an issue to me.

Particularly after seeing Joe's DVD on DCC wiring I began to understand the advantages of DCC.  While DCC has it's learning curve, once you figure it out it is much more simple than wiring a layout for DC and it allows you to do so much more.

Start reading what you can find online about DCC.  Tony,s and Litchfield station have a lot of free resources on their web pages.  You can find them and other good suppliers in the Advertisers links on the main page.

Check out the MRH Theater.  Joe's Clinic, DCC The good, the bad, and the ugly, has good information too.

There are some good books on DCC.  You may find some at your local library.

Here is another of Joe's DVD's that might be helpful.

DCC Clinic Live

Whether you go dc or dcc I would still eliminate the wye.

If you eliminate having the option of running an oval or following the full mainline, you remove the wye.  Now you have a bent oval with 2 return loops.  I think having the wye and two return loops in that small a space provides too many ways to turn a train around in too small an area.  Just my opinion.

Change of plans

I decided to simplify things and ditch the reverse loops. It was too busy and confusing really. But let me know what you think and add any comments/suggestions for modifying it.

Hi The secret to DC wiring of

Hi

The secret to DC wiring of reversing sections is that the power supply is made at the point where the loco is and that all trailing turnouts have cuts beyond the frogs.  A train travels into the reversing loop with the turnout facing, this gives a choice of right or left but either way the train can enter the reversing section without problem.  Once into the loop the power should be switched so that it is supplied to the loop so that when the turnout is switched train power stays the same.  This does mean that as the train exits the loop and the power can be switched back to outside the direction has been reversed but as it happenned little by little the train never noticed.

This layout is one of those puzzles - "How many reversing sections can you count".  I make it 3 + 1 Y but it seems that I should be able to find more in it somehow.  The only further ones are caused by the doubling of the track at the top and the very large one starting at the turnout to the left of the siding fan and running diagonally up, round top right, down to bottom right and back through the Y, which is so long that you can reverse a train that's 2/3 the circumference of the outer track.  Unfortunately it is only possible to enter this loop from the loop in the top left which can't take a train longer than about 1/4 of the circumference.

There is a method of doing it totally seemlessly and with the train running totally automatically with several trains on the layout simultaneously.  This is called SuperBlock.  The layout is divided into a number of sections which are connected to the neighbouring sections by communication wires which give the status in the adjoining sections.  A train can only enter a section if it is vacant, as the train enters the section checks whether the next section is also vacant and if not the train will start to slow to a crawl finally stopping at a designated point.  Obviously the slow and stop points can have appropriate signals.  When the section ahead becomes vacant the train will automatically accelerate back to speed.

Each section can have it's own specific speed limit so that when a train enters the section the train accelerates or decelerates to the designated speed.

The system becomes more complicated with two way running, as here, as if two trains are approaching each other with a vacant section between both would see the vacant section until one entered and this might not give enough room for the second to decelerate without entering the section as well.  So as two trains are approaching a vacant section the nearest can be allowed to enter but the further must be told to stop in the previous section.

The communication wires follow the same routes as given by the turnouts using additional accessory switches.  This means that the trains automatically run in accordance with the turnouts and any additional switches used to stop the trains.  As these are probably at points that signals would be used in this is sometimes called signal centric in that the system is effectively controlled by the signal box alone.  Obviously additional control can be provided for shunting but this only needs to be a variable potentiometer as the power amplification is handled by the system.

This layout would require about 11 sections, the controller kits cost about £9 each.  It's not really a very suitable layout and you'd be hard pushed to run more than two trains simultaneously while normally 9 sections would allow 3-4 and it would be impossible to run a second train while shunting the yard for instance because there's no headshunt, in fact the left hand end is a critical area used by all routes.

Criticising the layout - I think there are too many reverse loops, there should be a headshunt for the sidings so trains can continue to run during shunting and there should be another siding or spur away from the main yard.

Archie

It isn't that complex

Although there are three places where train direction can be reversed, they can easily be wired with only two electrical reversing sections.  One is at the top, in the light blue area.  The second is in the darker blue and includes the upper right turnout in the wye and the track from there to the upper left turnout in the wye.  There is no need to remove the wye, it is an interesting feature and adds almost nothing to the complexity of wiring. 

Regardless of the type of turnout used, there are a minimum of ten gaps required for this layout.  The first four gaps are two at each end of the first reversing section in the light blue area.  The reversing section in the darker blue area requires a minimum of six gaps, two at each end of the diagonal running from lower left to upper right and two in the left hand diverging track of the upper left turnout in the wye.  In each of the five locations, the gaps are in each rail and opposite from one another.

Assuming all metal wheels and conductive side frames, the maximum train length will be determined by the distance between the gaps in the shortest of the two reversing sections beint traversed.  The reversing section in the darker blue area will determine the longest train.  

If you wire the layout for DCC, both reversing sections could be controlled by a single automatic reverse device.  This statement pre-supposes operational limitation such that there would only be a train in one reversing area at any given time.  If you desire to run two trains such that both reversing sections could be occupied at the same time, then two auto-reversers will be necessary.

The wiring could be made to sound much more complex.

Your plan

I'm far from an expert but I'm interested in seeing where your planning takes you.

The first thing I see is that you have no way to work your yard without blocking the mainline.  Adding a yard lead would be something I would want to do.  Also an arrival departure track for the yard would make it more functional, IMO.

Can you walk all the way around the layout?

What are your goals for this layout?  Are you building it with any desire for prototypical operation or just to run trains?

Is this an HO layout?

What does your railroad room/space look like?  What size is the area?

If you show the layout in your space I think it's easier for others to make suggestions.  I found that looking at others ways of using my space got me to think outside the box a little more.

Can you post a drawing of your area so we can see what you have in mind?

Your plan Submitted by

Don't know if you saw the revision on the first page of the post but I ditched the reverse loops. It is an HO guage, used for just runnin' trains. The area is gridded by the foot. The North and West side of the layout will be up against a wall with no access. It's 3.5 feet in depth so I can reach any disasters (I've got long arms). That is a great suggestion about blocking the yard. I'll add a lead. Thanks!

Allen

What program did you use to

What program did you use to design your layout?

What I notice on your design is that you have a yard

with no industries.  What do you do with it besides running a train around in circles?  What do you plan to use the yard for?  The one spur that kind of goes off of the yard might be an industry, but it is so close to the yard that I can't see the point of the rest of the layout.

I agree with Wolfgang.

It isn't necessary to treat the whole of what Charlie refers to as "track Y" as a reversing section. It is sufficient to just treat the short section between the turnouts numbered 851 and 280 (next to the "D") as such.

I'm a bit disappointed with some of the earlier answers to this request for help. "DCC" isn't the answer to every problem in model railroading, and if you can't spot the reversing sections to begin with you'll never know where to place the auto-reversers.

Ron

I use anyrail. It's not too

I use anyrail. It's not too bad.

DCC

Is DCC really simple to wire? I have the same basic problem this guy has. I have the layout setup and wired exactly the way Atlas says in their book but it still will not run!

Thanks

DCC simple

Dcc can be very simple to wire and if your layout is a simple track arrangement without a lot of reverse loops, (places where the track loops back on itself allowing a train to travel back over track it traveled previously but in the opposite direction) it should be simple to wire.

Since it is giving you trouble something must have gone wrong.

If you post a copy of your track plan and illustrate how you have wired things someone here can likely help you out.

Yep, post a track plan

If you can post a track plan, we can help you find the problem. You're probably missing some gaps in the rails. Just running the wires properly won't help if you didn't gap the track right!

Thanks Joe. I've modified it

Thanks Joe. I've modified it to take out both reverse loops. A bit busy/complicated. I am still going to run DCC. I haven't begun wiring yet, that's why I asked for help before I screwed things up. Here is where I'm at: