One question - have WE changed?

One question we could ask: have WE changed? Have we become jaded to the magic - is it still there, but because it's not new and unexplored like it once was, familiarity is now breeding contempt? If so, how do we break ourselves of this - or can we?

Magic

For me the magic is in creating my own little world. So it's not entirely prototypical and some people have a fit? Get over it! I enjoy what I'm doing both on my US and my new German themed layout. I think people have forgotten to have fun and imagination. Everything is just a tap on your screen away, you can check on everything in an instant, there is no room for fantasy anymore. Maybe that's why I don't have one of these 'smart' devices? Maybe that's why I still use books as a reference (remember books anyone?).

And yes, I'm still a MR subscriber even if the content is not what it used to be. Maybe it's the other way around? Maybe I have changed, hopefully improved my skills over the years and so what MR is providing is finally below my skill level? Isn't that something to celebrate? Still, once in a while I find something that interests me and that's why I'm still subscribing.

So again, enjoy the hobby and leave the worrying part to Joe !

Putting the "fun" back in?

This is just my take...

The "fun" for me in Model Railroading - and what I think significant differentiates MR'ing from most modeling hobbies - is the dynamic social interaction that comes when operating the layout together to solve problems.  (I think the closest another modeling hobby comes to this might be war gaming.)

What's my favorite hobby magazine and why?  Probably the OP-SIG's Dispatcher's Office...nearly every photo has people in it having fun.

What is my favorite hobby book of recent vintage?  Tony Koester's book on multi level layout design...many photos of the man/machine interface.  Operators interacting with the layout...people in the photos.

For me it is this combination of people interacting with well designed and executed layouts while playing the "railroading game" that makes the hobby unique and embraces all its many parts.  

I am not sure any magazine, save possibly the DO, communicates this well.  Operations videos come the closest. The recent Allagash book installment did a pretty good job as well.

My $0.03 (Canadian)

md

I hear ya, Mark

Mark:

For me personally, you are speaking my language. Operations is the reason I do all the rest of the hobby - it's that compelling and satisfying.

But here's the rub - it's also well known in the hobby industry that only two model railroading topics do extremely poorly if you do books or articles on them - operations and maintenance.

On the other hand, the two most popular topics are scenery and DCC/electrical - because those two topics transcend scale, prototype, and era. Everyone wants to know how to do better scenery and better DCC/electrical things with the trains.

Mark, I am guessing you're talking prototype ops, and not just run the trains roundy-roundy, right?

Interesting

Reading Mark Dance's response in the other thread (or maybe at some point it will be moved into this one), got me thinking a bit.  In the last few years, my son got into RC truck racing.  I joined in with him to have a father-son activity (he isn't really interested in the trains anymore).  I quite enjoy my time at the track and look forward to race days.  These last four months I've spent more time doing RC than I have doing trains.  I've been trying to figure out why that is.  I've chalked it up mostly to just "something different" to do, thus a little variety, not unlike Michael Rose starting a second layout to go back and forth on when you get stuck on one.

And as the other Michael commented, I, too, have pondered just selling all my train stuff and walking away.  But I know I would regret that in fairly short order.  It's just one of those "down" times where you need a break.

However, Mark's comments got me thinking a lot.  Maybe one of the reasons I enjoy RC so much is that camaraderie and the time spent with my son.  It's fun to get out and race guys and chat and do a little trash talking.  I'm a pretty solid introvert, so I'm most comfortable alone or in a small group, rather than with a large group of people, so being around people more seems to go against my ingrained nature.  But maybe I need to do it more.  Thinking back, it's already been two years since I got to participate in my first operating session at rfbranch's place.  Still has been my only one.  Rich was kind enough to invite me into his home, a total stranger, and I had a blast operating with the small group he had.  Maybe Mark is on to something...

But that then begs the question, how can MRH support that?  We have the MRH users map, started by Bill Brillinger, to connect with others, but what else could MRH do to support that in-person interaction, rather than just interacting here on the forum.  Lots to be learned and the forum certainly has it's place, but what could we do to foster more interaction and get more people like me out and connecting with others in the real world?  An operations group list?  I don't know the answer, but perhaps others might chime in.  I really think Mark has something here.  In my travels, I've visited different things on my own (family stays home), and almost everytime, I think "it would sure be nice if my wife and kids were here to share this with me."  Maybe that just is how we get most of the magic out of the hobby.  Just sharing it with others.

replying to Joe's reply ... Immersive Modeling?

Actually Joe roundy-round ops fits as well as switching ops or TT&TO ops into my argument. Different points on the continuum.  It is the interaction of people together and people with an electromechanical environment they designed and built.  The layout is a framework or platform they designed to play their games on and share with others.

Different from video games: there is something physical you craft and interact with

Different from war games: generally the MR platform is more complex (RC tank battles excepted) and the game is collaborative rather than competitive

Different from RC cars in terms of an MR layout being more complex and oftne being grounded or translated from historical research 

Different from ship/tank/plane/car building because you "play with them" with other MRs in an often complicated manner to solve problems

etc. etc.

So the challenge might be to find a "new" way to describe this that isn't "ops or maintenance" because those are just parts of it )  The essence is people interacting with the modeling and with the layout. Immersive Modeling maybe?

In my heart I wonder if we couldn't attract more younger modelers if we emphasized the game play and interactive nature of the hobby along side the  stunning craftsmanship and photography?

So, who are these people?

I'm not really sure who you're referring to when you talk about this "growing sense,"  that the hobby has lost it's magic.  I've met some who have tired of the hobby and dropped out.  I know others who have been in the hobby for decades and they are just as enthusiastic as the day they started; maybe more so.  I do know this; it is not the place of hobby publishers to decide some kind of strategy for the hobby.  That's the place of the hobbyist on his or her railroad first; then the manufacturers who want to make money by selling the product the hobbyist wants; and finally the publishing industry when it recognizes what people really want to read about. 

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Ray

The growing sense

The who I am referring to is a number of industry insiders who have been modelers for years and who are known as thought leaders in the hobby (you would know their names instantly if I named them) as well as many conversations I've had at shows with various modelers contemplating the hobby's future.

As for the hobby strategy, I'm thinking of how the hobby moved to more realism in scenery and weathering through the 50s and 60s as the hobby press promoted that more - and how the concept of running the layout like a real railroad with staging and the beyond-the-basement philosophy in the 70s and 80s.

These things have changed the entire hobby direction for the better, and the hobby publications seemed to have something of a mission to take the hobby to new territory in these areas during the decades I mentioned above. The hobby publications seemed to be all-abuzz during those years with these new exciting insights.

Since the 90s, there's been no real sense of advancement and fresh insights coming to the hobby, and no prominent thought leaders, and little in the way of new directions being suggested by the hobby press. It just seems to be status quo and little that's all that new and exciting. There seems to be no sense of mission by the publications. Just fill the pages ... often with the sameo-sameo every month.

since the 1990's?

"Since the 90s, there's been no real sense of advancement and fresh insights coming to the hobby, and no prominent thought leaders, and little in the way of new directions being suggested by the hobby press. It just seems to be status quo and little that's all that new and exciting. There seems to be no sense of mission by the publications. Just fill the pages ... often with the sameo-sameo every month."

    I highly disagree . The first issue of Model Railroad Planning came out in 1995 IIRC? There's been plenty of innovation since then. Better models, better sound, better layout design, more realistic scenery, etc. Think about the contributions of guys like Lance Mindheim, Bernie Kempenski, Rob Spangler, and Mark Dance, resources like Freight car weathering sites, prototype photo sites, and  this MRH forum.  It's easier and faster to find info these days and the average  quality of the work is much better than it was in the 90's. The "magic" is a matter of mind, we might get too used to seeing it but a sunset is still beautiful if we stop and look. The hobby will go where the hobbyists take it and a magazine should follow not lead. Instead of worrying about where the hobby might go we should be enjoying where it is now..DaveB

No "awe" factor for me much anymore...

I'm the one who stated in the other thread that the hobby seemed to have lost "magic" for me. Somehow that post didn't get moved here but anyway, I'm having a hard time trying to quantify and put into words what exactly it is that I'm missing.  There just isn't an "awe" factor for me anymore.  Nothing I see really " blows me away" anymore.  I still see examples of good modeling and fine craftsmanship in todays hobby but it still just basically bores me.

Let's face it, the modern day prototype or even the prototype of the last forty or so years is pretty mundane. Because of some of my past commentary, people are going to take this as an indictment of prototype modelers and maybe it is in a way but we have become so adept at modeling what we see in a realistic manner that we are conveying that same  boring mundane atmosphere in our layouts. Maybe that's the goal for some of you but it's not for me.  I want awe and wonder.....  Maybe it's me and I'm just too jaded these days.  Like I say, I find it very hard to quantify what exactly is missing for me.

Michael

Sure there's been improvements

Sure there's been lots of incremental improvements, but there's no one thing (save DCC in 1993) that's altered the entire pursuit of the hobby like realistic scenery and weathering did in the 50s and 60s, or like the beyond-the-basement concepts did in the 70s and 80s. During those years the hobby seemed to be vibrantly abuzz with with how to implement the new insights. But there's just been nothing much since to galvanize modelers and get them all excited to be exploring any new hobby frontiers.

Is there something we ought to be thinking about that's a big step the hobby needs to take next that will inspire and set the hobby abuzz for another couple decades? That's the question. It's all been incremental improvements since the early 90s, with nothing all that revolutionary since that time.

I'm having a hard time trying

Michael, this seems to be a general problem these days. Look at the evolution of audio: we have reached a level of quality with the CD and the offspring streaming that makes no sense to improve for the general public. Now awe anymore. The same is true with video: we have reached a resolution and color depth that beats our sense of sight. No room for improvement, no awe. Look at computing devices: we have more computing power in a phone than a PC had in the 1990s. If you were improve it, nobody really notices.

That's why manufacturers are trying to 'improve' locomotives by adding sound because everything else is already at a level that cannot be improved anymore. 

I remember the awe I felt when I saw John Allen's G&D for the first time. These days a layout of the same quality is considered the minimum standard and doesn't even get a mention.

So is all the 'awe' going out of our lives? Is this going to be the 'dull' century?

The people factor

I think one key, which has been touched on already, is the people factor.

Stuff excites for a while but then it gets old, the newness wears off.

What I find continues to surprise and delight me as I grow older are my people relationships. I find the more I get out and do the hobby with others, the more energized I get about the hobby. The more I stay home and just fiddle with the stuff, with no people involved, the more it wears thin after a while. It's when I think about the stuff work I'm doing and how I will be able to share it, that's where the excitement comes for me.

That's why MRH is called Model Railroad Hobbyist. It's our firm belief that it's the people factor that never gets old, never gets boring.

One way to do that, I'm finding, is to share the hobby with those who have shown some interest in it. There's nothing like working with newbies to remind you of the excitement when everything was new for you in the hobby.

So one prescription for getting out of hobby doldrums is figure out how to share the hobby with others. Go help out the scouts like Jim Eager has done - or what about other community volunteer ventures, or helping a modular club get going and display at the local shopping mall? Or how about working with Prison Fellowship to get some model railroading going among some otherwise bored prisoners?

Point is, if you're bored, then figure out how to get the people factor back into the hobby for you and it won't be so boring after that, I bet.

RE Finding the Magic

I came up against this a few years back. Part of it came to light for me when I started my own index of articles in the MRing press that I considered important enough to keep track of. I started my own because there was a plan in an old MR of a Milwaukee RR passenger train and I wanted to know what it would take to build it. Accessing MR's index proved to be a total waste of time. So I created a basic format in Excel and went at it. And discovered 2 things that were just a bit disheartening. (1) was that the newer a MR was the more the same it was as it's predecessors, and (2) that in a lot of ways I was letting what other modelers had done and was showing up in the press guide me in what I was doing. In other wards as was discussed in another thread a while back I was simply copying a lot of what had been done by others because I liked it.

So I got out a good sized piece of notebook paper and made a list of what I liked about the hobby as a kid and what really got my juices flowing of what I saw in the press. Then I went through and gave them a rating between 0 and 5. To even make it on my layout it had to have a 3 or higher. It's feelings here that count. And I included magazine interest at the time. It was in order of preference Gazette, RMC, MR. I didn't know about MRH at he time. What I found interesting about that part of it was that the Gazette and RMC were pretty much tied and MR was hitting almost at a 2. And when I thought about it was because the Gazette and RMC sparked my imagination with almost every issue. The other thing that I looked at was, which layout stories did I have a tendency to come back to and look at over again?

So what made the cut in my modeling was scratch building first, structures and cars. No I haven't gotten to the passenger train yet. Kitbashing structures, scenery, operation up to a point. I would rather build than run. Steam era wins, and era is defined as 1900+. And there is a kicker in here I like early diesels. Maybe because there was, like autos more variety in their appearance. And another kicker to is I like adding some of the more modern details to structures. So how do you combine those wants with reality. Well if you are a prototypical modeler you don't or you build 2 different layouts. Or the concept I came up with was, an old logging line that when the city grew up around the logging mill, the company came up with a plan to be the tourist RR of a rail fans perfect dream. An operating RR still in business serving customers on the water front, in town, out to anther town that used to be a logging camp way around on the other side of the bay. Yes the mill still runs, but the logs are coming in from off line, The cars used inbetween local industries are old timers and passengers are riding a train from the late 1800's early 1900's. The tourists are ecstatic, business owners are satisfied, money is rolling in for just about everybody and the owner, (me) is happy.

Now to answer Joe's question about how he can make it more interesting. How did the author use his/her imagination to solve a problem. As I was reading through this tread one thing that occurred to me was that it would be really nice to have a section in the goodie heading where we could list our selves and what we are looking for. Round robin, operating group, or.... and whether we want to join an exsisting one or start one at or around our own layout.

Jack

There is magic on the railroad

To me, there is magic a-plenty, both on the railroad line and in the real world.  Even a modern diesel gets me smiling as it rounds the bend at the club--though the true magic is a fine steam locomotive and a passenger consist barreling through the mountain.  The creation of a convincing piece of the world, working with others or alone, is true magic.

I think the train i ran last week is a symbol of the magic--a little 0-6-0 with a gondola fitted with seats and passengers, a Bachmann open car with passengers, and a roundhouse coach working its way around the line, careful of the big smelly diesels as the little people aboard get a feel for the railroad--creating the real magic in miniature.

(Of course, for oddball consists, remember when someone complains about a high-cube boxcar with a steam locomotive, point them HERE: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=451050&nseq=8)  Where else can equipment over a century apart in construction hook up and just plain run?

< And if you REALLY want magic on the tracks, hunt up the Hogwart's Express or Thomas--they're actually both prototypical now, in the right place and time...>

What I find continues to

Joe, fully agree. I have met many really nice people through the hobby (Hi Rick) and some really good friendships have developed. If it wasn't for more than that the hobby would be worth a lot to me. Just today I called a fellow modeler in Germany that I have met online in a German model railroading forum. I liked the way he does things, I liked the way he expresses himself so I sent him a PM asking for his phone number. It took him a while to accept my invitation (Germans aren't the easiest people when it comes to relationships with total strangers) but this morning I found his phone number in an email, I called him and we spent about an hour on the phone. I think I made a friend.

So I had a good (model railroad) day and I hope to have many more. Everything doesn't have to be digitized!

Scouts and regaining awe

Teaching the Scouts and seeing them "find" Railroading brings back the "awe" for me.  The most recent classes, I set up a test track, and brought an engine so each Scout could see his car run.  The smiles were big and wide.  Word from the staff and signups would indicate that this class was amongst the,if not the most popular one at the Academy.  And one of the big smiles was mine!

The limitations of this particular environment are how many Scout I can handle in  given class (seems to be about 15).  If only I could figure out how to do more of them.

This concept gets back to the person who mentioned father and son RC racing.  The key is "father and son".  In my case, the Scouts are my substitute.   Maybe something about how to teach our children to join us in Model Railroading? 

The LD SIG and getting stoked about the hobby (again)

There was an LD SIG (Layout Design Special Interest Group) Journal commentary many years ago now that radically changed my pursuit of the hobby and it's served me well since.

The concept was simple - if you want to do something that's the most satisfying in the hobby, go back to what got you into the hobby in the first place. Revisit your roots, and if you do some self-analysis, you will find the key to what gets you the most excited about the hobby.

I didn't realize it right when I read it, but a few weeks later it hit me like a ton of bricks. I was doodling on my latest freelance layout design concept, the Northern Railway, and I was designing Tacoma Yard. I had the new SP in Oregon book by Tom Dill and Ed Austin - and the idea occurred to me to extend the SP north out of Portland, OR in my little freelance world, and have it come into Tacoma.

I suddenly got very excited at the thought of having the SP in my freelance layout.

Then it hit me - the LD SIG commentary had said go back to your roots - what got you into trains in the first place. For me it was growing up next to the SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon. I fondly remember the heavy lumber trains being pulled by long lashups of dirty gray and scarlet diesels around the winding curves of the southern Oregon hills.

Well, DUH. It was the Southern Pacific in southern Oregon that got me into trains in the first place, so model what got me into trains.

That insight has served me well. As for what I model, I'm as excited as I was when I was as a kid every time I go into the basement and see those Oregon hills and the SP trains in the scene.

Back to roots

I like the thought about going back to the roots.  My fascination with trains came from the old Edaville Railroad and other steam trains--and now I'm building some HOn30 trains--back to my roots indeed

Satisfied ?

What is this magic you speak of ?  Im sure it means different things to different people. What drives me is never being satisfied. Its always a new engine or a new car, making improvements, adding more detail,ect. I like the concept of recreating a moment in time ( as im a prototype modeler) and watching it come to life.  Then ops is a major factor.

          When I was a newbie on the NS an older engineer took me under his wing and told me that working for the railroad would ruin the hobby for me. well that is another can of worms we will save for another day,but the point is it gave me a better understanding on how the whole thing worked. It defiantly helped my operations. If we all just watch the train go around the Christmas Tree so to speak it would get old very quickly.

Roots

For me it was the Penn Central, growing up in Indianapolis in the 1970s. It seemed just about everybody was modeling the Golden years of railroading. As a kid in the 70s I never saw that. Even at that young age I wanted to model it as I saw it dirty, grimy, and struggling to survive.

My thoughts on the subject(s)

Joe F wrote:

Perhaps the problem is that the publishers should spend less effort on trying to determine where to take the hobby and more effort on reporting where the hobbyists are going with it?

When the "few" (the publishers) try to tell the "many" (the hobbyists) where to go (heh); they may discover that the collective are not interested in that direction and have wandered off to other areas.

You asked in an earlier thread for suggestions ... many were offered, no real need to open a new discussion for that here.

Joe also asked:

Well, of course you have; for the better (for the most part).  Your magazine is now monthly vice quarterly.  The amount of content (including advertising ... which is not a BAD thing, as sometime people seem to have difficulty determining my intent with such statements) has also increased.  When you were only putting out four issues a year, (and the magazine was "new"), you could be much more selective about content ... only the very best made it to the published edition.

In the early days I found nearly every article to be "interesting" and worth my time in reading.  Today that is simply not true.  It is rare for me to read even one or two MRH articles all the way through; but over the course of the year, the number of articles published in MRH that keeps me coming back for more, is still about the same, just spread out over 12 issues instead of four.  The increased content has resulted in many more "specialized" articles that have appeal to smaller groups ... it is the nature of the beast I suppose.

One area that could use some improvement (in my opinion) actually falls under the editor's hat.  There are some authors who I will read anything they write, start to finish; and then go back and read it again.  And there are others who I will stop reading almost as soon as I see their name as their particular writing style goes against my particular nature.

Not really sure how to describe this (and perhaps I should conduct a "scientific" study using Word to confirm/verify this); however, it does seem that those authors that I don't bother reading use words such as "I", "me", and "my" a lot.  The article becomes more about "them" (the author) and what "they" are doing and less about "what" is being done and "how" it is being done (the hobby).; i.e., I prefer articles written from an "This is what I did" point of view vice the "I did this" perspective.  That is all I will say about that.

Joe F wrote:

DaveB answered this one for me.  I agree with DaveB in that the hobby has made some significant changes since the 90's for all the reasons that he listed earlier.  DCC by itself has been a "game changer" in the hobby.

Where is the "magic" today?  I think a lot of it resides in folks like M C Fujiwara and Professor Klyzir who have taken the hobby out of their homes and to the public.  M C and his group of N-scale "FreeMoNers"; seem to be having a blast.  Every time he reports on their adventures (achievements?) I find myself wishing that I could be there.  Doesn't get much more magical than that.

Likewise the Professor is an amazing machine, churning out show-level layouts that consistently gain high marks from the public.  He is none too shy about sharing his experiences and ideas, just for the sake of helping another fellow modeler achieve their dream and avoid some of the pitfalls lurking about.

One of the reasons I like the forums here so much is that there are so many folks, from all walks of life, young and old, who have a common passion and are willing to freely share that passion with others.  That is the magic of model railroading.  Dave O

For me...

Magic / back to the basics