how are you going to throw

how are you going to throw the points?

Unsure just now

If using 4 Tortoise switch machines, it would be easy.  That's an expensive way to go.  It's possible to use two, with the right linkage.  Then, I probably don't need the frog juicers.  Just use the Tortoise switches.

Right now, I'm thinking of just going with some ground throws.  That's why I am wondering about the frog juicers.  Are the frogs all the same polarity when the turnouts are thrown?  Then 1 juicer should work.  Of course, I may be wrong, which is why I'm checking.

John C

c

It can be done with one tortise, a lot of model airplane linkage and 4pdt relay controlled by the tortise contacts.  Charlie Comstock posted a picture of mine a year or so ago.

Terry

Just found node 5357

Thanks, guys.  Just found the previous discussion on this issue. All the confusing answers seem to be there

John C

I think...

If you use ground throws, I think it would be best to use 4 ground throws with SPDT contacts. K.I.S.S. scrap the frog juicer.

If purely DCC on this layout....

Dear Shoofly,

If analog or "dual mode" control systems were in play, I'd completely agree with you.

However, if the layout is pure DCC-only, Frog Juicers are a very simple option to source and deploy,
being entirely self-protecting and not dependent on electro-mechanical interlocking or turnout<> turnout relationship..

Frog Juicers will also handle "wrong route running" of errant equipment automatically.
(IE you'll derail long before you short-out the layout or power-district to a standstill ). 

For a double crossover with 4 frogs, and no inherrent turnout<> turnout throw interlocking,
as would be the case with 4x discrete CI groundthrows,
4x mono Frog Juicers would be a go-to solution.
(check the TVD site, 4x mono Juicers appears cheaper than 2x dual Juicers
http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccpowerfrogjuicers.html )

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Re:frog juicer

Prof Klyzlr,

Perhaps I can be accused of being a Luddite at times, but it comes from years of layout building. I tend to prefer a simple mechanical/electrical switch vs complex electronic board. The simple mechanical solution is easier for me personally to debug and maintain should a problem occur. Complex electronic devices may initially be easy to install, but when they breakdown, can be quite a headache to debug and fix IMHO. Also factor in cost of 4 caboose SPDT contact throws at $6 each total $24.

The Shinohara is a little simpler to wire and isolate due to the two crossover frogs being plastic. If the double crossover was orientated so the two parallel tracks horizontal, I would recommend the two turnout frogs on the bottom track be connected to one output of a dual frog juicer. Connect the two turnout frogs on the top track to the other frog juicer output. A dual output frog juicer will run you about $32 according to Tam Valley. Not that much more expensive then the SPDT caboose throws. Keep in mind you will need to get regular caboose throws which will run an additional $16 + $32 = $48. Perhaps this solution will be a little more forgiving during an ops session then having to throw all 4 caboose throws with SPDT contacts in order to use the diverging route. We had to do this on a DCC layout in order for the train not to intermittently short the booster when running through either of the diverging routes. The frog rails are very close together and occasionally the tread of a metal wheel would bridge the two rails together causing a momentary short. Very annoying!

If you decide to make things more complex, and wire each of the 4 frogs to a different frog juicer output you will need the hex frog juicer which is $80. At that point you are not saving anything vs 4 tortoise switch machines at $20.

To make options even more annoying, a modeler could use the Proto:87Stores Mole for $13, which has a single SPDT contact and use 2 of those with some linkage options they offer through their store.

I like the frog juicer, don't get me wrong. It's really the only device that can readily be used on a spring switch.

Chris Palomarez

1 juicer --> multiple frogs : $$/effort saved is wasted...

Dear Chris,

Totally understand, and yes, if a single Juicer is wired to try and handle a pair of physically nearby frogs on opposing rails, then the rapid and potential-simultaneous attempted switching of the Juicer "both ways at the same time" will indeed cause a problem. This is not a fault of the Juicer, simply a poor deployment of the circuit. (Sure, save a few $$ and a few solder joints now = constant frustration and extra $$/time/effort needed later).

However, at US$14 per discrete mono Juicer, deploying a mono Juicer per-frog on such a track arrangement 
(IE each frog has it's own circuit, and is completely independently switched)
is not a significant imposition IMHO, and completely avoids any "cross-switching" issues.

I must admit, I'd forgotten about the sharp/acute-angle frogs in the crossover itself, running the total of actively-switched frogs to 6 for the track arrangement. (4x turnout frogs, + 2x acute-angle frogs. The flat/"obtuse" angle frogs join common "side" rails, and thus do not need switching).

Honesty compels me to admit that I most commonly use microswitches, as my personal layouts are required to seamlessly switch between analog and DCC operation at any given moment. However, I've been wiring up a lot of pure-DCC layouts from N thru O 2R over the last 18 months, with the majority using Juicers. There's been all manner of both accidental and intentional "abuse testing", and I've yet to see a Juicer fail

That reminds me, Tim Warris of FastTracks is using Juicers on his Bronx Terminal layout, and when it comes to complex trackwork and random crossover configs, Tim looks to have it covered...

http://www.bronx-terminal.com/?p=3220

As with many modelling issues, there's plenty of ways to peel a feline. However, in this situation,
where the turnout control methodology is not inherrently electrical,
and the turnouts are not inherrently interlocked mechanically,
Frog Juicers are a known proven working option...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

I have some ground throws.....

with the contacts that I'm not using elsewhere.  I'll start out with those and see what happens.  I'll have to be super vigilant with being sure the routes are set correctly.

John C

Just put that into your

Just put that into your special instructions for train movements through the double crossover. All 4 turnouts must be thrown.