ralpho37

Over the past couple of years I've developed an interest in scratch-bashing C&O steam locomotives. I've started a couple of locos, which have yet to be finished, but when I came across the "Delaware & Hudson Consol Scratch-Bashes" thread on MRH, it inspired me to go even bigger with my own projects. I couldn't resist tackling a project I have long had on my mind: a streamlined L-1 Hudson.

I plan to keep track of my progress on this thread so please feel free to contribute with any suggestions, comments, or constructive criticism you'd like!

With that, let's get started...

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ralpho37

Diving Right In...

I've used Rivarossi and Broadway Limited locos in the past as starting points for my projects. These are both good brands, but each have their drawbacks. The Rivarossis I have used were of old design and thus aren't the smoothest runners in the world. Each Rivarossi model I have used on a project has required extensive mechanical work, which is not my strong suit. Broadway Limited makes fantastic engines. However, I'm not brave enough to go nuts on such a pricey and beautiful model with a hobby knife.

IHC engines have always peaked my interest because they are inexpensive, feature modern motors and running gear, and are weak on detail - all features which make them ideal for superdetailing or scratch-bashing. Here are some photos of a brand new IHC Premier Series 4-6-4 I got off of eBay, the subject of this project...

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Fireman's side of unaltered 4-6-4.

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Front of unaltered 4-6-4.

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Top view of unaltered 4-6-4.

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Side view of the tender. The tender originally had Commonwealth-type trucks. C&O used Buckeye trucks on most of their tenders, so I simply replaced the old ones with a set of Buckeyes off of a Rivarossi model.

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ralpho37

Modification of Buckeye trucks

To get things going, the first thing I did was replace the trucks on the tender. I replaced the ones that came on the IHC model with a pair of Buckeye-type trucks off of a Rivarossi model. These have a much shorter wheelbase than the Commonwealths, so they spun a full 360 degrees when I screwed them in. To fix this, I improvised a "spin pin" out of a paper clip. Now the trucks catch on the sideframe of the tender, allowing the trucks to rotate freely, but only to a certain point.20010513.JPG 

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ralpho37

Prototype

In the late 1940's the C&O decided to join the streamlining craze by planning its own modern, all-coach train the Chessie. The railroad had already ordered three massive M-1 steam turbines to power the train, but needed secondary locomotives to power the connecting routes and to serve as backup to the often-sidelined M-1s.

Instead of ordering new power, C&O made the decision to rebuild 5 of its F-19 Pacifics in its Huntington Shops. These Pacifics were essentially stripped down to the boiler, mounted on an all-new cast steel frame, given a larger firebox, tender and cab, and retooled with new valves, a high-speed booster, 4-axle trailing truck, Franklin steam system and roller bearings. Four out of the five rebuilt 4-6-4s were wrapped in a stainless steel streamlined jacket and the boilers painted Vermillion orange. After a few years of service they were repainted in yellow, which is how they are seen in most color photos today. #490 lives today on display at the B&O Railroad Museum.

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F-19 4-6-2 Pacific #490 powering the George Washington. (Photo from borail.org)

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L-1 4-6-4 Hudson #490 on display at the B&O Railroad Museum. (Photo from piedmontsub.com)

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Douglas Meyer

Please keep up the posts.

Please keep up the posts.  This looks to be a really interesting idea.  Also I assume you are away of the C&O yahoo groups, there are a LOT of very knowledgeable folks on them that would be interested in what you are doing and who may be able to give you any help with info or what have you that you may need.

-Doug M

Modeling the C&O New River SD circa 1943

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DKRickman

So far so good

Just a note on the IHC steamers.  All of the ones I have worked on had pressed in crank pins and stamped steel side rods.  The first one I had (before I knew about lubricating the side rods) sawed its own crank pins off while on a Christmas display.  I have also had a crank pin or two fall out.  Not to suggest that they cannot be built into reliable models, but you will want to take a little care with them.

I too am looking forward to this thread.  That loco has always intrigued me, and I'd love to see a model of either one - streamlined or not.  Besides, I love seeing anything steam related!

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
George J

490

I used to live in Baltimore and visited the museum any chance I got. I was always fascinated by C&O 490!

Streamlining and stainless steel - what's not to love?

Your build look good so far. I have to agree with the Rivarossi mechanicals. I have several old design GG-1s (with the pizza cutter flanges). They were good in their time, but their time has passed.

George

"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers, ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."

Milwaukee Road : Cascade Summit- Modeling the Milwaukee Road in the 1970s from Cle Elum WA to Snoqualmie Summit at Hyak WA.

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ralpho37

Thanks for the comments

Douglas: Yes, I am a member of the C&O Groups on Yahoo. That's a good idea to post over there too! I noticed your signature line, do you have a layout of the New River Sub?

DKRickman:  Interestingly enough I was looking over the model yesterday and noticed that the siderods seemed loose. I think this is just how they are assembled because everything seemed to be in good working order. Thanks for the heads up though. I'll definitely keep an eye on it and I'll give it some lubrication before putting it to work.

Possum: I haven't ever been to the B&O Museum but would love to check it out sometime.

Thanks for the comments everyone! I'll probably be adding some photos this afternoon between football games!

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Fritz Milhaupt

Another intriguing steam build thread!

I'll just have to watch this thread as closely as I've been watching Ken's Mogul thread. This is an intriguing project. I've always had an affection for the L1s, even after I narrowed my focus to the C&O's ex-PM Northern Region.

What are your thoughts on the fluting?

If you haven't looked at it yet, you might consider the milled plastic Budd fluting from Union Station Products ( http://unionstationproducts.com/budd_fluting.html). The C&O had both Pullman Standard and Budd cars, but since the L1s were supposed to pull the Budd-equipped Chessie connectors, the fluting was probably matched to the Budd design.

The new C&O coaches and sleepers coming out from Walthers this month are very appropriate for the trains the L1s ended up pulling.

A number of years back, there was a brief effort to get someone to produce etched sides for the two types of Budd cars the C&O kept from the Chessie project, the combine (#1402) and the lunch counter-diner-observation cars (#1920-1922). These cars served all over the C&O until Amtrak day. Unfortunately, the guy who was leading that project passed away suddenly in 2006.

- Fritz Milhaupt
Web Guy and DCC Wrangler, Operations Road Show
http://www.railsonwheels.com/ors

 

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ralpho37

Planning

I didn't have scale drawings of the prototype in hand (in hindsight I could've bought some from the C&O Historical Society, of which I am a member), so I chose to make some of my own.

If scale drawings are not available "The Google Machine" can be used as a great reference. Some websites offer free scale drawings of steam locos. Brasstrains.com is another great reference. They offer a wide selection of brass steam engines in HO scale and provide photos from all angles of each model.

I just so happened to find an L-1 on brasstrains.com and used my eye and a metric ruler to draw up each piece of the streamlined jacket I would need. To create a drawing for the side 'skirting," using a side profile of the brass L-1 online I would "eyeball" where each change in contour occurred, measure that distance on my IHC model, and draw it on grid paper. Keep an eraser handy and be paitent...20011213.JPG 

These drawings also served as templates for cutting out the styrene!

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I think it's Precision Scale that makes a brass casting of the pilot I need, but I figured I would try and make my own out of styrene instead of forking out $30 for it. Plus I figured it might actually be easier to simply wrap the existing pilot with styrene instead of trying to attach a brass casting onto a plastic model. I'll let you know how that goes...

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ralpho37

Remove unwanted details

The boiler of the L-1 is mostly smooth. My IHC model features quite a few details that need to go...

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Using a pair of needle nosed pliers I removed the silver handrails from the sides of the boiler. I kept the handrails and short stanchions because they are actually a close match for those that the L-1 had.

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After the handrails were gone I used a sharp #11 hobby knife to remove some of the molded-on details. All of these molded-on details need to go except for the vertical seams on the boiler and the small valve (pop valve??) underneath the smokestack on the engineer's side. These details were actually tougher to remove than I anticipated, so for some of the larger details I used a Dremel tool with a cutting disk and lightly touched the part. After doing this, the detail would typically come right off with minimal effort.

Note that I haven't sanded anything yet, but please feel free to offer me some advice on how to really smooth everything down!

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ralpho37

Fritz:

I actually did a decent amount of research on finding the right material for the fluting. I settled on using Evergreen Styrene's Corrugated Metal Siding sheets. I'm not sure how happy I'll be with it because it hasn't arrived from Walthers yet. I wish I would've come across the Union Station products before placing the order because they look perfect! I'll let you know how the corrugated styrene looks though!

Do you have a layout of the PM Division? Sounds like an interesting area to model!

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Douglas Meyer

You could say I have a bit of

You could say I have a bit of a New River Sub Layout. It is not that far along, but.... the layout takes up pretty much the entire basement (34 by 70 outside dimensioins) It is a Mushroom design with a raised floor ranging from 16 to 22 inchs.  It also includes Cass (in the lower section under the raised upper)  as that is what my father likes (we are building this layout together). 

The layout runs (or will when finished) from Hawks Nest to Hinton. With the major elements being Hawks Nest, Kaymoor, Nuttle, (Cass) Sewell (a bit small) Cunard. South Side Junction, Thurmand. Quinnimont, Meadow Creek, and Hinton. 

There is/will be hidden staging on both ends.  

Right now I have a most of the track in at QN and I am working on the track heading into Prince and the tunnel.  

If your ever in Michigan ( around Detroit). And want to take a look at it let me know.

And if you are on the two main C&O forums then you should see me over there. (Right now I am talking about Color)

Well keep up the good work.

-Doug M

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DKRickman

Chisels

Quote:

Note that I haven't sanded anything yet, but please feel free to offer me some advice on how to really smooth everything down!

If you don't already have one, get some chisel blades.  They're much better than a #11 at removing details from smooth surfaces.  In fact, I have some woodworking chisels (narrower is better for small scale models) that I like even better than the Exacto blades.  They seem to stay sharper longer, and the long, comfortable handle and decent mass give excellent control.

Whatever chisels you use, get yourself some 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper and frequently resharpen them.  A sharp chisel will shave even the finest detail smoothly, but an even slightly dull one will mangle models in a hurry.  Also, hand-sharpening will tend to round the blade a little, which is a good thing.  The rounded corners will not dig into the surface as easily.  To sharpen a chisel blade, take a few swipes in a smooth steady motion, holding the bevel down, until the surface is evenly polished.  Then flip the blade, lay it flat, and clean up the back side.  Work on a hard flat surface, like a piece of glass, metal, or hard wood, and use a little water to help the paper last.  By sharpening my blades, I find that I rarely have to replace them any more, and my models have improved as well.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

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Fritz Milhaupt

Chisels and layouts

Definitely pay attention to what Ken says about chisels-- they're far better than hobby knife blades.

Quote:

Do you have a layout of the PM Division? Sounds like an interesting area to model!

It can be very interesting, especially during the fruit rushes and auto plant change-overs.

I have no home layout at present. About the time I was ready to start on one, two things happened. First, I discovered operations, which led to getting involved in the Operations Road Show project with my buddies. This has eaten up a lot of my hobby time since about 1998.

The second thing was that the Editor of the Pere Marquette Historical Society's newsletter just up and quit one day, and I ended up being the one to step in, since I had publishing experience and had been editing the modelers' column already. That pretty much consumed the rest of my hobby time.

However, a switching layout based on the Pere Marquette's "Furniture Spur" in Grand Rapids (Mich) is in the planning stages, once I get the basement reconfigured the way I want it. Hopefully in the next few months.

Any way, to get a few of the PM steam locomotives I'm going to want for the bigger, future layout, I'm going to need to do some pretty heavy kitbashing (nobody makes a suitable heavy ALCo 2-8-0, for example), which is why I'm watching what you and Ken are doing with such keen interest.

 

- Fritz Milhaupt
Web Guy and DCC Wrangler, Operations Road Show
http://www.railsonwheels.com/ors

 

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ralpho37

Replies:

Doug: Sounds like a very cool layout! My dad and I are starting a 45'x50' layout of the Kanawha Subdivision.

DKRickman: That's some good advice. I'll see if I can get my hands on some chisle blades. Is there a specific brand or blade number you recommend?

Fritz: I'll definitely keep the forum posted as I work. It will definitely be a learning experience for me too.

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Douglas Meyer

There is some sort of

There is some sort of chisel that is sold by Micro Mark (in two sizes) that is designed to remove molded on plastic. I have not used it myself but some folks I know have (Karen P. suggested it so perhaps you can ask on one of the C&O groups about it).  And the folks I know that have tried it seam to really like it. Say it works better then a chisel blade in an xacto.

Anyway something to look into.

Note I do not think they are cheep.

-Doug M

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DKRickman

Chisels again

If you have a grinder, you could do worse than to narrow (and re-sharpen) a woodworking chisel from the hardware store.  I use a 1/2" chisel (the smallest I could find at Lowes cheaply) and an Exacto chisel blade (#17, I think).  I also have some very narrow hand made woodworking chisels, but I haven't dared to being them into my model workbench yet.

The short answer is you can do a lot with whatever chisel you chose.  It's more about the skill and keeping a sharp edge than what specific tool you have.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

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Nelsonb111563

This tool will be your freind!

Ralpho37, Check out this tool.  Best i have found for removing details from plastic.  Rounded edges keep you from gouging the surrounding area.

http://www.micromark.com/4mm-plastic-modelers-chisel,7584.html

Nelson Beaudry,  Principle/CEO

Kennebec, Penobscot and Northern RR Co.

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DKRickman

More thoughts on chisels

Now that I have a little more time to sit and think and type..

First of all, I own and use different chisels for different jobs.  The Exacto chisel blade is ideal for situations where I need a very thin blade, as when slicing parts off a sprue, chopping bits of styrene to length, or working in between two pieces.  Its small size is also handy for finer work.  Though I have not done so, you can easily modify an Exacto blade with a Dremel tool, making a narrower blade for really tight spots.

On the other hand, shaving something like a lagging band or cast-on sand line off of a plastic boiler requires control, and that's easier with a more massive and physically larger tool.  For that, I pull out my 1/2" woodworking chisel.  I have not figured out if it's just the larger size (which fits my hand much better and gives me better control), or the quality of the steel, or the thicker, stiffer, heavier blade, but whatever the reason I find it does a much better job than the Exacto blade.

Whatever blade you are using, there are a few techniques, tricks, and rules which will help you do a good job and prevent your fingers from leaking, or worse.  Some I've mentioned elsewhere and am restating for completeness, others I've failed to mention.

  • Always maintain a sharp edge.  A dull blade will not cut smoothly, and requires enough force to put you and your models at risk.
  • Let the blade do the work.  Your job is mainly to guide the edge, not jam it full force into the model.  If you're pushing much harder than you'd push a pencil, you're pushing too hard.  Remember that you lose fine control as you use more force, so things are less likely to go wrong if you are gentle.
  • Take small cuts.  Removing a large detail or area may require multiple passes with the blade, shaving a little off at a time.  Smaller cuts require less effort, and are much easier to control.
  • Work into a corner if possible.  When a woodworker wants to cut a notch in a piece of wood, he first makes a plunge cut into the surface to make the edge, then shaves into that cut, and repeats the process as needed.  Working into a corner like that helps to stop the blade from heading off in a new direction as it emerges from the work, and also keeps the slicing cut from going too far.  If you must cut without a stop (such as when shaving off a grab iron), take extreme care not to use too much force, especially at the end of the cut.
  • Never put a body part or any other critical item in the path of the blade.  Think about what will happen if the blade slips - if there's flesh down wind, it will find it.  Fortunately, a sharp blade makes a cut that heals well, usually.
  • Slice rather than chop.  Hold the blade at a slight angle to the direction in which you want to cut, and move it in a sideways motion past the cut.  Rather than chopping plastic off, you're slicing it cleanly.  This gives you better control and makes a smoother cut.
  • Sharpen your blade with slightly rounded edges.  This will prevent the corners from digging into the surface around whatever you're working on.
  • A chisel held perpendicular to the surface makes an excellent scraper, and can remove very fine shavings to dress a surface.  After slicing off a detail, turn the blade perpendicular, with the back toward the direction you want to go, and lightly push or drag it across the surface until the last remnants of the detail have disappeared.
  • A chisel will go in the direction of the face closest to the surface.  Hold the back flat against a model to slice cleanly, parallel with the surface.  Put the bevel flat on the surface to do the same, but with the handle at a more convenient angle.  If you raise the handle beyond that, the blade will tend to dig into the surface.

I've mentioned sharpening, and I mostly covered it earlier.  While you can get quite fancy sharpening a blade, simple wet/dry sandpaper is more than sufficient.  For the dedicated, multiple grits can be glued to a piece of glass.  I normally use a loose sheet of 600 grit on my workbench, working near the edge in order to flatten the back.  It takes a little time to get used to sharpening a blade - the key to making the bevel is to work as though you were going to slice something off the surface of the paper, working the entire bevel at one time.  A circular motion is faster, but can round the entire edge if you're not careful.  After sharpening the bevel, there will be a thin lip at the edge.  That can easily be removed, and the back dressed, by laying the blade perfectly flat on the sandpaper and moving it in a circular motion.  When you're done, you should have a blade with two perfect planes intersecting at the edge, both reasonably polished, and the edges very slightly rounded.

You can also change the angle of the bevel, if you like.  A sharper angle will slice with less effort, but will dull more quickly.  Conversely, a wider angle will be more durable, but will require more force.  Personally, I have found that the factory angle is an excellent compromise and have never felt the need to change it.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
JimBrown

Ken, Excellent advise on

Ken,

Excellent advise on keeping chisel's sharp. I prefer to use an oil stone for that job. A bit expensive to get one, but it will last a long time.

Here's how to use an oil stone:

The above technique should also work with wet/dry sandpaper on a good solid surface (such as glass, as you suggested.) I'd still use oil, even with sandpaper. 3 in 1 should do it.

Here's a link to a decent oil stone:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33018&cat=1,43072

All the best,
...jim

 

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DKRickman

Oil vs. water

Quote:

The above technique should also work with wet/dry sandpaper on a good solid surface (such as glass, as you suggested.) I'd still use oil, even with sandpaper. 3 in 1 should do it.

Jim,

I have an oil stone and use it to sharpen everything from my kitchen knives to woodworking tools to hobby knives.  However, in the spirit of not letting the perfect get in the way of the good, I felt it worth suggesting water on sandpaper.  Also, I use water and a piece of sandpaper at my workbench quite often, and it works well.  It's a lot less messy that using oil.  In my experience, anything that can make maintenance easier, less messy, and generally more convenient is generally a good thing.  If you can get 90% of the benefit with 30% of the trouble, I say it's a worthwhile compromise.

But yes, you're right, an oil stone is the best way to do it!

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
ralpho37

Great advice!

Thanks I'll order me some new chisels and try it out.

I'll try and have an update on the L-1 soon. I'm just waiting on supplies coming in the mail.

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Douglas Meyer

I assume you have the issue

I assume you have the issue of the C&OHS Mag that covers this engine?

-Doug M

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ralpho37

Reply:

Doug: No I do not, sounds like a good, helpful issue though!

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