Tam Valley DRS Transmitter : Valid for use where (in the world)?

Dear Joe,

While I agree that the "bolt-on" ability to add "Wireless DCC" to an existing working Host DCC system via the Tam Valley DRS-1 transmitter is an excellent gateway-in to "Wireless DCC",

(and NB NWSL/S-Cab have a similar "DCC --> Wireless" adaptor available, search "RAPA")

IIRC there are serious worldwide licensing/legislation limitations on the usage of such a system,
RE the Lynx Wireless chipset basis and use of the 800Mhz "ISM" radio frequency.

Something to consider...

Happy Modelling,
Prof Klyzlr

Prof Klyzer

Joe has a tendency to write those articles at the last moment, so they escape the normal copyediting process. 

Feel free to proof them - it gets the problems fixed before they go into Running Extra. 

PS - I knew simplist didn't look right, but my computer didn't offer up any alternatives...

Agreed, not there yet for HO

Agreed, not there yet for HO and smaller scales but we are getting close now, especially to practical HO applications. With the rate that technological innovation moves now though, it's not going to be long. Eventually these systems will move from the outer fringes of the hobby and more into the main stream. How far in will be dictated largely by cost. If the price comes down, of course it will help. POB or not though, we really do need to get the control signal off the rails. It's just backwards butt engineering and always has been. Up until fairly recently we really had no alternative but now we do.

battery power

Joe, you overlook a simpler approach that is both affordable and efficient: the battery trailing car. Use a box car or baggage car with lots of room for a battery, over the air receiver, sound system, etc. Plug the trailing car into the locomotive or tender and its all ready to go. (disconnect any track power connections for multiple units on the same track.) Simply connect your battery car to your favorite locomotive and save a huge fortune in not having to equip every locomotive with dcc, sound and power.

To keep battery cars charged up, just plug them into recharge units on a shelf or track side and they are ready to go for the next session. In G scale, batteries last for 4 or more hours of operation. In the smaller scales, smaller batteries should last nearly as long.

In the end, lots of expense and effort are saved by avoiding complex wiring and squeezing circuits into tight places. 

Mike Evans

Battery Power for HO Modellers

Hi Joe,

I model a sixty-mile long short line that ran through my hometown in 1856. It brought the railroad and all its benefits to the five towns it connected and I model it in a twenty by fifteen foot room. This railroad also models the original timetable which I was fortunate enough to get my hands on.  To run the timetable I use eight locomotives.

I assume the above description reflects your definition of a small model railroad with a limited number of locomotives.

I use 2 and 3 cell Lipo batteries and Del Tang receivers and transmitters. Del Tang is now being sold by Micron. I decided to use that particular receiver because of its small size and the unfortunate delays experienced by Bluerail (I couldn't wait any longer for them to come to market.) 

I have had no issues with space when installing this deadrail system. On a couple of locomotives, where the tender was simply not roomy enough for the install, I switched to a larger tender. 

I have found that most of the locomotives run for about two and a half hours.

I know you mentioned in your article that it must be a pain to remove and charge the batteries prior to an operating session.  But I don't find it to be so. I have become very comfortable with removing the batteries and charging three at a time while I watch tv.   The Lipos once charged, will hold their charge almost indefinitely. 

To this point, I haven't needed to have a spare charged battery on hand to deal with a locomotive that has run out of power. I suppose that's because some of the time, various locomotives are sitting somewhere waiting for something to happen. 

But I can tell you one thing for sure. I definitely don't miss the wiring and the track cleaning and I like the realism of each particular locomotive running under it's own steam (power). I can now install a deadrail system in a new locomotive with one evening's work (couple of hours)......and the Del Tang products in my experience have been flawless.

So for me with my small railroad, the completely deadrail system is unquestionably the only game in town

Finally, I would be remiss if I did not mention that there were some sacrifices made when I moved to this form of controlling trains. I chose to forego sound and signalling. Modelling an 1856 era railroad made it easier to disregard signals and perhaps I'll add sound later.

Just wanted to share my experiences. I'm pleased to see this article about battery power being objectively discussed. All the best.

Rick

Deltang plus AC power on the rails

Nice post Rick. I'm not an advocate of DCC or sound and look forward to using the Deltang receivers. I have three steam engines using the Deltang receiver and a Atheran wreck crane I animated with a Deltang receiver. So am very a familiar with the receivers.

One thing that nobody thinks about is that one can change the motors in there engines. In the three steam engines I have I installed 6 volt motors, a rectifier, voltage regulator and the Deltang receiver. The rectifier supplies the voltage regulator the proper voltage polarity, so no having to reverse polarity on the tracks. The voltage regulator supplies the receiver, which has a 6 volt max capacity with 5 volts that then regulates the motor speed. There is no performance lose in either speed or pulling power.

I plan on using 18 volts AC for track power using on board rectification with voltage matching to what ever voltage motors I'll be using. Last I looked the receivers had varying voltages available.

Bernd

A few points.  First off most

A few points.  First off most folks are not going to be willing to permanently attach a car to the engines to get power when we have had a working solution for this for decades.

As for the batteries themselves, there in is the problem,  Batteries don’t last forever,  So sooner or later you will need to open your engines up and replace them.  This causes more work and of a type many don’t like (taking expensive delicate engines apart). This is not inexpensive and the big problem is… in 5 years or 10 years or whatever are you going to find a drop in replacement or do you need to rework the engine?  We see this problem now.  The light bulbs we are using today are much harder to get a match for then the old Edison bulbs where because there are so many options and they change so fast.  And batteries are just as bad or maybe worse,

Case in point.  The new AirTags from Apple that were just released a few weeks ago,  Accirding yo several reviews they replaceable standard battery has a problem.  One of the most common brands of batteries makes a battery that is supposed to fit (same battery standard) but it does not work as the contacts don’t make connection.  According to the battery description it is supposed to work but….  And this is two of the largest companies on Earth (the battery manufacturer and Apple) using a battery standard that has been around for years and made in huge numbers (i believe a lot of car fobs use it) and they couldn’t get it right.

Imaging what mess we are going to get into…

Not saying batteries are a bad idea, just saying they are not perfect either.  And with the changing electronics and battery technology it is hard to predict where we will be in 20 years but it is pretty common in our hobby for folks to keep cars and engines for 20-50 years.

So i think you have at least another 10-20 years before batteries are anywhere close to as common in the hobby as DCC is today.  But then again that took decades for command control to become de facto in the hobby.  With the early stuff being out in the 70s (and I think before) being readily available in the 80s and yet on this very forum when it first started we had folks still arguing against DCC.  This hobby is very slow to change.

-Doug M.

The complicated language of Battery Power

Hi Bernd

       Thanks for your reply and please don't be miffed with me for what I'm about to say.        But I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  Please don't feel the need to explain it - this is because I'm not at all grounded whatsoever in electronics plus I'm probably even worse than the average klutz.

       For me, going to DeadRail simply meant snipping the track pick-up wires on my locomotives, then connecting them to my receiver and battery in the manner described in the instructions..... that's it/that's all.

      What you have described in your post is pretty cool but I believe it will scare the average person away.

      I now own ten battery powered locomotives and yet have no idea what you are describing......... one question I do have for you is why we would want to change the motors?   Your answer might help someone reading our posts. But I'm not changing anything I do with DeadRail conversions. Doing the simple stuff has worked great for me. Plus I'm really lousy at pulling motors out of locomotives (I bought a can motor and tried to change a motor with very bad results)........ I'd rather be scratch building a factory.

      One point that I really like but totally forgot to mention in my original post and probably you appreciate too, Bernd is the slow running capabilities of our battery powered locomotives and how we can have them creeping along the track in yards etc.

      Best wishes.

Rick

Hi Doug - I've had no problem with the Lipo Technology

Hi Doug,

     I'm 72 now and so I'm more interested in the next eighteen months on my layout rather than twenty years down the road  

    I only submitted my post because Joe had seen fit to delve into the world of DeadRail in his latest online edition of Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine.

    Regarding battery power. It's just simply good old DC power, just like what our transformers put into our rails.

   Popping a battery out of my tenders takes under ten seconds. I never even get near the motors.

   As long as the battery puts out 7 or more volts our 12 volt locomotives run great. So almost any battery will do. I've yet to replace a battery after four years of use.

    But I never mention DeadRail at my local nor my favourite hobby shop for fear of angry comments.  I've even been dropped from one Operating Group. So for some reason it seems to be just human nature to be negative toward my changeover to DeadRail.  I would never propose that others should make the change after having invested in DCC and done all the work to build their DCC layouts.

   For my part, I love operating on DCC powered layouts. 

   But I do find that those who reject the DeadRail system avoid mentioning or even discussing it's perceived advantages such smooth running, the avoidance of climbing under our benchwork to install our wiring looms, regularly cleaning our track and finally the savings incurred not having to purchase a DCC system console such as Digitrax etc.  I find that the expenses pretty much offset each other. 

    But we are all so very fortunate to be able to find the space, time and and money to experience the absolute fun and satisfaction of model railroading no matter how we decide to do it. So glad my Dad bought me my first Lionel model train "set."      I was nine.  What fun I had. 

Best Wishes

Rick

Right now I have 17 Steam

Right now I have 17 Steam Engines 9 are Blackstone D&RGW HOn3 DCC/Sound Equipped 4 are Brass w/DCC then I have 4 MDC Narrow gauge Kits I built  I have 7 more Engines 3 of them are Brass that I am still in the process of  installing  the Sound Trax sound decoders. Then I have 14 lighted Passenger Cars 4 lighted Caboose and 9 sound cars so far Batter packs for all these would require 4 to 6 engines just to pull the weight up a 3% grade.

In the past 14 years I have built 6 Railroads 3 of which were DC Cab Control standard Gauge. and now I'm building my 3rd DCC RR. I'm finally getting the DCC Wireless NCE controls and programing down where I don't have to look up every CV I need. Don't get me wrong I still look up a lot.

I'm Pushing 70 years old and in the Past 20 years I have spent in excess of $60,000.00 on The hobby and I have the paper work to prove it and 112 unbuilt craftsman Kits of which none are Lazar cut kits, they are old school Bass wood models with Strip wood and metal windows and doors and uncut & un-marked or scribed Sheet stock.

At this time in my life I will in no way shape or form switch to another Train control system. Especially Giant Battery Packs and recharge worries

You can have the Soundless Lightless motorized Toy Trains and OH BOY no power on the tracks like the real ones except they still run like lifeless Toy Trains you get with the OLD DC systems with nothing but the sound of the electric motor sorry I'm past TOYs and I don't want to turn my trains back into Toys.

I think if your running anything smaller than "S" Scale The Battery power system is just 20 years too Big and needs a lot of re-engineering and shrinking down their size before it will be worth fooling with. Oh and remember once you install the receivers & the batteries in your engines your still going to need a sound Decoder if you want more than a toy train going WRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr around the layout

This and the cost alone to switch to a lesser type system then what I'm running now just makes me close my mind to the Idea of Battery power except for that Battery Power Bunny.

For someone just starting in the Hobby Battery Power may be a God Send for some with over 60 years of collecting and building model railroads it seems more like starting over and it just isn't worth it to me besides what do I do with the $2000.00 worth of sound decoders left over.

Oh one more thing - - -  Battery acid inside a model Train ! Batteries are notorious for leaking and what could be worse than putting away your engines for a couple months or even letting them set while you rebuild a section of your RR only to find out you left the Batteries in and they popped in the engine. Now your out $400 - $1000.00 depending on the engine. NO THANK YOU EVERYREADY !!!! OH Cadium Batteries don't leek no they POP and leek corrosive oil all over the inside of the compartment and it can't be cleaned as it tends to dissolve plastics as well as metals and buying a new set of Batteries every couple years because they only last a few years IF your lucky and that alone can cost plenty as batters for RC are $40.00 to $80.00 each.

I'll keep the battery power for my Flash lights and NCE DCC wireless for my Railroad/

Typical Reply

Boy, am I sorry I posted about Dead Rail. Lesson learned yet again.

Rick

@ Rickie

Rickie,

No offense taken. I found out about the Deltang receiver from being a member of the Freerails Forum of which I almost became the owner of at one point. That's another story.

David Theunissen joined Freerails and introduced his first receivers. I became very interested in this method of control for trains. David was just starting out with introducing the train RC line to the forum. I purchased quite a few of his early receivers. They used 5 volts. These were the Rx41d-5v DSM-2 receivers. He also made two separate boards called the ADD1 and ADD2. They increased the amperage output to themotor. The ADD1 gives an 800mA output to the motor and the ADD2 gives a 3000mA output to the motor. I see the Rx41d is still made but has four different versions now. When I first got into the RC train control method he only had Rx41d-5v one developed for use. I see now the operating voltage is 3-6 volts with a max output of 500mA or 1/2 an amp. Because of the voltage the board ran at I needed to re-motor the three steam engines I had. I searched the net and found 6 volt motors at Pololu.com They sell robotic electronics for hobbyist. The motor was a perfect fit for the 12volt motor that came with the IHC Corp. built 2-6-0. Here's a picture of the steam engine setup.

The components on the tender are as follows starting at the engine end. The bridge rectifier (the black round object), the voltage regulator (the square object with metal backing with a hole in it) and a capacitor (the round blue object). Those three components took what ever the track voltage is and makes sure the receiver only gets 5 volts with the correct polarity. It didn't matter if you switch polarity on the tracks, the receiver still got what was needed to make it operate. Then there is the small ADD1 board and the Rx41d-v5 receiver board.

With the setup on these three engines I can run with DC, AC or DCC supplying power to the rails. The rectifier board takes care of the supply the receiver needs, straight DC voltage of 5 volts. 

Basically the receiver gets a comparable supply equal to battery power. I get the same results as you with battery power. Smooth slow starts and realistic top speed.

Questions? Be more than happy to try and explain.

Bernd

I thought I had done a step by step on how I modified these three engines but can't find any mention in the forums I visit. Perhaps I'll do write up on my website.

Reaction of N and Z modelers

Reaction of N and Z modelers to HO being called "small scale"

Only G Scale people could think that way. (heh!)

Batt Power

After reading through the posts I find it amusing how much battery powered locomotives seem to upset some modelers. It begs the questions, do you still use a phone with a cable attached, how about your device you surf the internet? Is a cable attached to that device. How about the cars they are pushing in the new green deal. How many are going to be driving battery powered cars. Can you imagine the cost of a new battery pack for an electric car or having to charge it every night after a days drive? How many of you have battery powered cell phones? 

Just wondering what the dislike for batteries are?

Bernd

  "Just wondering what the

I don't think it's dislike of batteries, it's more about the facts of battery use in trains versus conventional rail powered trains. Folks need to know the downsides of batteries as well as the upsides, and some battery fanboys don't understand that. For instance they try to equate their small non sound equipped roster to someone's much larger sound equipped DCC roster , or they project their track wiring and cleaning problems onto all those who never have  wiring or cleaning issues. Our trains are not like cordless drills or cell phones, we have a built in reliable power connection in our rails which ideally the trains never leave so that needs to be taken into account. Batteries have their place and hard wired has it's place and we should be making our decisions based on the physic of our own situations not on someone else's opinion of what's best. I doubt you get much push back when garden railroaders point out their use of batteries ....DaveB

Dislike?

Dear Bernd,

Dislike? Not sure it's that,

rather, sheer puzzlement given that as long as metal wheels are running-on/in-contact-with metals rails,
the begged question is simply "why"?

I mean, apart from modelling a genuine _wood_railed_ tramway with actual scale
(Mt Albert scale lumber) rails,

Deltang Reciever + 3.7V LiPo battery + Voltage adaptor, contained within the roof cavity,
many wires routed down thru the hollow "wood" roof support posts...

On/Off switch + DC barrel charging port...
NB this means the loco MUST be lifted, tipped-over, and plugged-in to recharge...
55 minutes continuous runtime --> Min 15 mins charge = Not Suitable for public exhibition duties...

the only real-showstopper reason a metal-wheel<> Nickel-silver-rail system would fail is if the wheels are "airgapped" out-of-contact with the rail,

and if the train isn't in-contact with the rails, then it's DErailed,
and that's a far more Fundamental Mechanical "Call to Action" issue...

Happy Modelling,
Aiming to use the most-appropriate solution for the specific problem parameters,
Prof Klyzlr

Dislike

I think for most HO and smaller scale modellers, it’s a non-trivial solution in search of a problem.  There are times when batteries make sense, and times when they don’t.  Your phone has a battery because you want to carry it around with you.  Ditto your electric car.  Why doesn’t your coffee maker have a battery?  It doesn’t need one, it lives on the counter where power is readily available.  Although model trains move around, they’re always sitting on wires (rails), so especially with the advent of keep-alives, there’s really no problem that needs solving.  Except of course in special circumstances, in which case batteries can be a pretty cool solution.

Agreed there are non-DCC solutions

DC Power

There is nothing complicated about Power.  It is AC or DC and in the case of every single lead to a motor in our hobby, it is mostly 12VDC.  The power can come out of anything just so long as it is 12VDC when it comes out at the motor.  Battery power isn't anything special or different - that in and of itself is not the issue.

This would be a huge step backwards for the hobby.  Motors all being at the same standard 12V means we don't have to play around with another unknown variable when building or rebuilding a locomotive and its electronics.

Battery power in small scales

Battery power in small scales,  Like how this is the subject but small scale for them is like O and G...  

I though small scale would be...  Umm let me thing hard on this,  maybe N or Z.

HO I would call the Slandered scale.   If it is bigger than HO it is a larger scale, if it is smaller than HO it is a smaller scale.

convert a fleet of 60 N scale GPs and SDs to battery's then get back with us.  We are still waiting on keep alives that fit in our GPs and SDs.

...

How many times do we have to repeat this?

1) Batteries are not guaranteed to be ready when you are.

2) Batteries do not last - short term or long term.

3) Batteries are expensive - up front and to replace.

4) Batteries shapes/sizes are no longer guaranteed lifelong availability.

5) Batteries are physically and chemically dangerous.

6) Batteries increasingly require HAZMAT disposal.  Most end up in the garbage.

And the newer batteries have only compounded these issues.

...

I have a cordless drill.  I haven't used it in over a decade.  The battery no longer holds a charge and stopped reliably holding the charge over 15 years ago.  It now costs $40 to replace the battery, but you have to buy two, and even if I had that battery on hand it took a half hour to an hour to get a full charge.  I tolerated it for a couple years with the dying batteries that took less charge each time they were charged and then one day I had enough.

My corded drill, meanwhile, that I bought a year after buying the cordless drill after finding both batteries dead one night when I needed to use my drill, has a charge time of 0.5 seconds from the time I plug it in and will go alllllll day long and allllll night long as long as the power is present wherever I plug it in.  I also no longer have the diminishing torque issue like I did with the cordless drill.

I originally bought the cordless drill in a 5 piece cordless tool set.  I have since then replaced the drill with a corded drill, the absolutely worthless (2 plywood cuts per battery charge) circular saw with not one but two corded circular saws, the cordless saber saw with a corded saber saw, the cordless vaccuum that sucked with a corded vaccuum that actually does suck really well, and that flashlight is the only part that has been replaced with an alkaline battery powered LED flashlight.  See a trend here?  Oh, and each corded piece cost left than the nearest cordless counterpart ...batteries sold separately.

**** batteries.  And you can thank a cordless drill for my sentiments towards batteries everywhere else.  If you HAVE to tolerate them, so be it, but if not, then don't.

Capacitors are far superior to batteries for what we need and provide all of the gap filling power we will ever need.

I've also seen the Lipos expand inside cell phones and throttles and after being dropped.  I have seen Lipo batteries nearly burn holes in the pockets of those at the club after one got put in a throttle backwards.  Never again.  The risk is not acceptable no matter how high the reward is.

You can use Lipos all you want, but I do not want a fleet of ten ticking timebombs in my train room.

I can turn off my entire

I can turn off my entire layout with around 120 engines on it with one power switch,  How long will it take to turn on or unplug the battery on 120 engines?

I think the failure in battery's is scale,  playing with 1 or 2 large scale engines is not a big deal but working with 120 engines on an operating layout is an entirely new problem,  then make all those engines N scale...

By the time I finish and turning every unit on etc.   how much power will be left in the 1st units I turned on severl hours a go when I started turning each unit on....  What happens if I forget to turn a unit off,  will it drain the battery below the limit for a safe recharge etc.

HO: just watching people try to cram sound, keep alives in a SW or GP then add a battery and a switch to turn it on and off,  do not forget the WiFi module.  You are running into a space issue.   Now how much metal can I remove and still have the engine pull more than 4 cars.   

...

Nobody serious wants any cars permanently attached to their engines in any sort of way.

And you want proof?

I have this DC battery power trailing car. 

I bought for $5 at a train show and eventually put it on Ebay.  At $5 nobody else wanted it. 

I scrapped out the trucks (nice metal wheels) but otherwise this one goes to the dump.

I may use the flat for a bridge.  And yes, I bought it for the trucks.