@Jas

Thanks for the very timely and helpful article.  I am in the process of building a Layout Editor panel as I am finishing the helix and starting on the main level.  I too use a spreadsheet to keep track of all the signal and detector addresses.  SE8c boards are numbered 2 thru 6 (LS9 - LS48), BDL168 boards are numbered 5 thru 10 (LS65 - LS160), and DS64 boards are numbered 51-53 (LS201 -LS212) to avoid LocoNet sensor address conflicts.

My previous layout had a complete working panel with signals and Simple Signal Logic (SSL).  We moved before the physical signals and final detection were installed so I am starting from scratch.  I have read thru the Signal Mast and logic material but it was really helpful to see it installed and working.

Detection blocks are set up to that JMRI Dispatcher can run trains automatically at the same time one or more trains (ie the local or a scenic/tourist) are run manually.  I will be using JMRI's RG-1965 signalling rules with 3 color light heads (similar to traffic lights).

Your article is now something that I can refer back to as I move forward with block detection and signals on the HVT.  Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience.

What goes where? MRH or Running Extra?

This series is long, complex, and highly specialized.   

It is not what I expect in a general interest magazine.   If I needed project information on any topic at this level, I would be delighted to be able to purchase it in a magazine like Running Extra. It is far more than I would expect to get for free in an advertiser-supported publication. 

It's great stuff, but I am confused about what goes where in the current publishing environment.

What goes where

This series started before Running Extra was completely fleshed out as a new publishing concept. Because the series started in MRH, we stuck to our original promise for this series and finished it out in MRH.

In the future, this will go to RUNNING EXTRA now that it has been launched and fleshed out.

That doesn't mean we will ignore MRH as a place to publish more advanced material -- heavens no. For MRH we will prefer shorter advanced articles. But for really long articles or multi-parters that are very technical like this, RUNNING EXTRA will tend to be the publication we target with this kind of material.

I agree with ackislander

The series was appropriate for the electrical impulses column, it is such a large and specialized subject that it probably belongs in RE.

I think it took up enough page count that you could have done 3-4 articles of interest to more modelers in the same page count in the free MRH.

I think that this will be a challenge to your editorial staff to decide what is appropriate for RE and what is suitable for MRH.

Thanks Dave...

Sometimes being able to "see" the programming and how it operates is much easier than trying to read about it.

I like the sound of what you are doing with JMRI Dispatcher too, that will work well once I complete the staging deck for when I'm operating on my own.

Glad the complete series has helped you out, it's been enjoyable putting it all together.

Jas...

Hard to see signals

Jas, (or anyone else)

Do you have any signals that cannot be easily seen from the aisle?  If so, how do you make the indication visible?

I have one signal that will actually face away from the aisle, but from a cab-view camera it needs to be there.

I do Dave...

The last set of dwarf signals installed are located on a curve on the back tracks, in a corner that are storage tracks for Hershey Chocolates.

I was going to install masts so that they could be seen from the aisles, and if rolling stock was stored but I didn't have the clearances.

The way I'll overcome this is by installing repeater LED's on the fascia panel, that way if they are blocked and unable to be seen the operators will be able to see them on the fascia panel.

Jas.

Repeater LEDs

Great idea, Jas.  I'm looking forward to the implementation. 

In looking at signals on the

In looking at signals on the one town concept I am studying now I plan on having a repeater on the fascia pointing at the operators in front of the track side signal. I am also considering A signal head above the switches that control them on the tower operators panel.

The era I am depicting will have tower operators and the dispatcher will not be "modeled". One person will have control over the towers on the layout and will manually switch the signals and the powered turnouts involved. I expect to have only 4 to 6 control points on the layout and one at the exit of each staging yard.

At this point detection will likely be via security cameras so that the tower man can identify the train and record the information. Since traffic will be handled in real time there is not much likelihood of train orders being needed, but they could be added later.

Signals will be Pennsy style position light signals and I will only need to display 4 aspects on my layout. Based on the traffic level and the real time nature of things I expect things to be suitable for a relaxed operating scheme that has enough work to be fun but not so much that it raises blood presure and causes stress, after all this is a hobby not a job. 

Repeater signals on Ed Swain's layout

This is the repeater panel on Ed Swain's PRR layout.  It is mounted on the ceiling rather than the facia,. so it is very visible and is not blocked by other operators.  The signals are not visible at all from the aisle, but the repeater is easily seen.  Instead of color signals, the layout has typical PRR position signals.

Bill

Modeling the Reading Company in the mid 1950's

Planning signals

One of the biggest mistakes I made on Siskiyou Line 1 is not planing signals DURING TRACK PLANNING.

Most modelers wait WAY TOO LATE to do detailed signal planning. We're in a hurry to start building the layout and the signals can wait. We'll figure them out later.

WRONG! You never want to wait when it comes to planning signals. Plan them right along with the track plan or you will be sorry later -- such as signals right over major benchwork members (obstructed) or signals  you can't easily see from the aisle.

Planning

@ Joe,

You are certainly correct about planning signals from the very beginning.  I have done so.  That's why I know that a double-head signal on the point side of a turnout at the beginning of a passing siding will be located with the back of the head toward the aisle.  The repeater signal seems to be a good solution.  I know that Lee Nicholas has a similar situation with one signal on his Utah Colorado Western and used a partially hidden mirror as a solution.

More Repeater Signals

As Jason and others have pointed out, having repeater signals on the fascia is a great solution to problems with signal viewing angles. The photo below shows the repeater signals that I installed on the panel at Big Chimney on the CWE.

The photo below shows the view of the two dwarf signals from the aisle.

The next photo shows the view of the signal bridge from the aisle.

In addition to making the signal aspects crystal clear, the repeaters keep the crews from having to lean in over the railroad, thus avoiding possible damage to the railroad.

Tom Patterson

Thanks Tom for that great

Thanks Tom for that great example of repeater signals.  There is a wealth of information on that panel!!!

Repeater signals...

Dave,

My panels a similar to Tom's, the searchlight heads depicted on the fascia panel will be drilled out and have one of the RRCirKits Tri - Colored LED's inserted in them to act as the repeaters.

The LED will be piggy-backed off the Digitrax TSMK that operates both the dwarf signals.  The two double head dwarfs in the top left of the Manheim Junction panel cannot be seen by operators at this panel so they'll need to be repeaters.

Jas...

Repeaters

Thanks Jas, the panels with repeater signal lights are starting to come together in pencil and paper.  Color MS Paint versions will follow.

One question.

Is it over yet?

????

Is what over yet Greg...?

I was in an unusually

I was in an unusually sarcastic mood. Is the signalling series over yet? The model press needs to be aware of what is going on in the other publications. There has already been an extensive (too extensive) examination of signals in another magazine. I could live with it as an article, not occupying the electronics/dcc column. To me this is dedicating valuable magazine space to something of limited appeal. So far I am not overwhelmed with the content of the new model for the magazine. Joe has promised things are going to change. Launching a paid magazine while experimenting with content seems dangerous. If I were being honest, I don't think MRH is putting its best foot forward while re-inventing itself. 

I will be patient and wait it out but when I open the magazine and almost no content is applicable to me, I get discouraged. Yes, I know, write what I want to see. I don't have the time for that. 

At any rate, this is WAY off topic and I apologize for that. I am sure the article is well written, I'm just not reading it and looking forward to more variety in the electronics column. I also apologize to the author, I mean no disrespect to him or anyone else. 

GreggW66

Have you been to any of the major train shows lately? The last couple National Train Shows (and conventions) struck me as being very "signaling forward." How do to it, and the electronics to do it with seemed to be pretty hot topics.

At least there was an awful lot of it... to the point that this dark territory dude was getting interested in it.

Signals

Signals have been widely ignored by US modelers. Wayne Roderick published some material in the '60s, Andy Sperandeo did a series later in MR, Bruce Chubb has published his lengthy series. Even so, few model layouts make even a faint attempt at functional signals -- and all this while prototype realism has surged in the models, in the level of research available, and in operations.

Yes, it can be a lot of work, and no, it isn't something you can get out of a box and plug in. But it's a big element missing from a lot of otherwise big-time mainline model railroads. Sorry you were bored.

@ GreggW66

Sorry that the article on signalling did not touch your hot button.  I found it very helpful and quite timely.  Jas shows a high quality of workmanship and a thorough explanation of signals as they pertain to the JL&T Railroad.  It sets a benchmark toward which I can aspire.  I personally feel that it was an excellent use of the electronics/dcc column and I appreciate all the time and effort that Jas and the staff at MRH put into preparing and presenting this article.

I will admit that I don't read all the endless articles on weathering because at this point in my hobby I have no need or desire to do any weathering.  But I don't complain about them, I just don't read those many, many weathering articles.

I sure am glad that we all like different things, or every guy would be in love with my wife!  Isn't it great that Joe and the staff at MRH can provide such a wide variety of material for this multi-faceted hobby???

Have a Very, Merry Christmas!

You just yanked my chain GreggW66

Normally I stay well clear of these types of discussions as everyone is entitled to their own opinion but.....

I fail to understand how anyone can have the gall to complain about a free product.  It hasn't cost you a dime and you are under no compulsion to read all or part of it.

Personally I am tired of skinny articles that barely scratch the surface of a topic.  Jas congrats on a well produced and comprehensive treatment of a very complex subject. 

How about

because free things attract new people to your paid content and feedback helps craft the type of articles people want to see. Jason has/is doing a great job on his layout with signalling and JMRI and it's been very detailed WITHIN these forums. Some people may not care to see it repeated as it were in the magazine.

Back when all of MRH was free, you could vote on what articles you liked best. It's wasn't a competition, according to Joe, but helped them determine future content.

So if someone complains here, what's the big deal? I think another person said these free forums are important to the MRH content and family. So it's a perfect place to air your opinion on the content of said e-zines, free or not.