IrishRover

I have come to really like narrow gauge as a part of a larger scene.  I've started a concept for narrow gauge (2') still running in Maine as a working railroad in more modern times; I would love any thoughts on the possibility of this railroad actually working--could railroad history have gone this way?  The narrow gauge will be a significant part of the layout, along with the interchange with standard gauge.  The line's sense of history--and the tourist trade--insure that the older locomotives and rolling stock still survive.

So--does this seem plausible--and if not, how can I make it more plausible?

Name of Company:  Sandy River, Wiscasset, and Farmington

Gauge: 2 foot

Period Operational: 1870’s to the present

Motto: “Two Feet Wide and One Hundred Years long, and growing”

History/Description:

When the Maine Central attempted to prevent the Sandy River and Rangely Lakes from linking up with the Wiscasset, Waterville, and Farmington, the court case started getting ugly—until demands from the people of backwoods Maine spoke loudly enough to force the legislature to act, and the link-up was forced through.  In addition, railroad service was in so much demand, that the legislature passed a law providing that “The right of way, and all buildings necessary for the operation, of 2 foot gauge railroads, shall not be taxed.”

That act insured that the 2-foot gauge railroads would have a place for a long time.  Although a law like that sounds odd, it was a sure-fire way to encourage the growth of the little trains into parts of Maine that could only grow with rail service.  Among other things, it encouraged potential stockholders, who would know that the big lines wouldn’t encroach, then take over, as soon as it looked like there was a major profit to be made.

Additionally, one engineer proved that it was very possible to run these narrow gauge trains at speeds in excess of a mile per minute.  (OTL, one engineer routinely ran at these speeds, but the ride was very rough.)

Although the ride was rough, getting from one town to another at this sort of speed was exhilarating—and the President of the Line decided to take a chance.  With profit coming in nicely—for now, anyway—a portion of the line was upgraded, and a few coaches were modified for a more comfortable ride.  The “Waterville Flyer” was a huge success, especially with parlor car service added.

In the days right after the Great War, the line was fortunate enough to hire several de-mobilized submariners—including a few engineers.  As a result, when someone suggested diesel locomotives for certain purposes, there were already experts in place to run them.  No one ever thought they would replace steam for most purposes—but for switching in the yard, they might be useful, simply because they could be started in moments, used for an hour or two, and turned off. 

A pair of war surplus diesel engines were obtained, dirt cheap, and soon were mounted on improvised flatcars, shunting cars around the Waterville yard.  Of course, open-air locomotives were not the most practical in Maine, but nicely enclosed, they seemed useful enough.  The clunky boxcabs were indeed slow—but also reeked of modernity and progress.  That was a mixed blessing in Northern Maine—the locals accepted change but slowly—yet valued thriftiness as well. 

The boxcabs were used mainly at smaller yards and plants—ones that needed their own switchers, yet might only use them for a few hours at a time.  They also needed to be stored in a heated engine house in winter—diesels don’t do well in sub-zero temperatures.  More often, they simply weren’t employed in the bitter cold; traffic in their yards was also slower.

As the line grew, both in length and traffic volume, there was soon a need for either double headed trains, or bigger locomotives.  The occasional double-header made good economic sense, but as the loads increased, the need for locomotives bigger than the 2-6-2’s became glaringly obvious.  At the same time, replacing several hundred miles of track with heavier rail would cost, and cost a LOT.

Even as diesels were being contemplated for switching, so too were far bigger, better road engines.  Three basic ideas were contemplated.

The first option was to order some fairly normal 4-8-2 steam locomotives, which would increase pulling power by a third without increasing axel loading.

The second option was to order one or more Mallets, in a 2-6-6-4 configuration, for heavy freight (or what passes for heavy freight on a 2 foot gauge line.)

The third choice almost didn’t get brought up—but Beyer and Peacock and Company was hoping to get into the American market, and offered to build a pair of Garratt locomotives at a good price.  (It turns out that they offered to build them at a very slight loss to get American exposure.)

All three options were executed between 1919 and 1927.   Of them, the 4-8-2 was a fine locomotive, but, in places, had some difficulty with the tight curves.  Still, with good power and excellent reliability, they hauled plenty of freight and passengers over the years.

The Mallet was a daring choice, supposing that traffic would suffice to support such a costly investment—but it also paid off nicely.  Successfully hauling huge loads right into the 21st century, the first two Mallets were joined by several more over the years.  They, however, needed a wye or new turntable at each terminus; they were too long for the existing turntables.  Thus, their runs could only terminate at certain locations.

The Garrets were, in many ways, the best heavy locomotive for the system—powerful, able to manage tight turns, reliable, and fast.  But—being imported, maintaining them posed a potential problem.

Garratts did have the key advantage of being fully bi-directional—no new turntables needed.  Another pair was ordered later.  The massive capacity and versatility of these locomotives worked wonders through the years of the Second World War, as heavy loads might need to be taken anywhere on the system.

The last set of special locomotives was the Baldwin 4-6-2 Pacific express locomotives.  The big, high stepping engines could exceed 75 miles per hour on the straightaway, and ran smoother than the smaller Prairie 2-6-2, taking curves at a faster clip.

As the line grew, reaching southern Quebec, and also extending into Vermont in places, some were referring to it as the “North Central,” and the name change became official in May of 1928.

In mid 1929, the North Central  was growing ever more prosperous, and northern Maine along with it.  But, two great threats were looming, one seen, one unseen…

Next: Surviving the Depression and the Automobile…

In the 1920’s the automobile was becoming a significant means of transportation—but roads in Maine were far from the best.  Sure, a motorcar had its advantages—but also moved at most, 30 mph, was slowed down by rain, snow, and worse, MUD.  And trucks—useful locally, but not so much long distance.  (With a better—and growing—railroad network, less money is going to roads. And the taxes the railroad would have paid on its land otherwise—aren’t getting paid; the railroad’s exemption has been sustained.)

And, at one point, a passenger paid the railroad to transport his car—and soon enough, many passenger trains have a flat car or two with motorcars—or even trucks.

Also as the 20’s moved on, double track mainlines started to appear.  But—each track was signaled for two way traffic, so that the express trains could proceed with fewer delays if one train was running behind schedule, and so that longer, slower freights didn’t slow the traffic as much.  In short, the North Central Railroad was acting just like a standard gauge line…or a “broad gauge line,” as the Locals in Northern Maine called the bigger trains.

Unlike many railroads, the North Central has avoided excessive bank loans, preferring instead to build up its cash reserves, then simply write a check for major purchases like a new locomotive.  In many cases, the funds are invested in the booming stock market until it’s time to make the purchase.  At the end of September, 1929, the CEO cashed in every stock the line ownd, preparatory to ordering 3 new Mallets, a class of 6 2-4-4 Forneys, 2 more diesel switchers of an improved, yet experimental design, and 4 new high speed express steamers.

The railroad, as a result, had massive cash and gold reserves when the depression hit—and no deadly loans sitting around ready to crush the line at a banker’s whim.  Unless the depression is unusually long and severe, the company should survive—perhaps even thrive.  No one will be buying Detroit’s latest.  And, if coal gets too costly, steam locomotives can burn wood—and if Maine has a lot of anything, it’s wood…

One side effect of the crash:  A few locomotives that were stored for future use, years ago, and about due for the scrap heap, were , instead, shunted aside, where they could be used again if needed.  In particular, the small, vertical boiler Climax that’s so popular with railfans and Hollywood moviemakers alike would never have survived to the present day—but fortunately, the little engine was in the back of the engine house, behind other reserve locomotives.

Business fell off as the depression set in, but the road managed to keep running—the reserves of cash intended to purchase new locomotives and rolling stock kept the line through the various glitches.  And with adequate locomotives and rolling stock, wreck damage could be handled as the workforce became available, rather than either rushing it at ruinous expense, or cutting back service.   This allowed the line to maintain decent levels of service, although cut back when appropriate.  In some cases, railbusses filled in on less used lines—but no lines were abandoned.  But—profits, though slim, never quite vanished altogether.

Even in hard times, there’s people with funds for vacations, grand hotels letting rooms for low prices—in short, some tourist trade for the little trains.  Adding more parlor cars helped draw trade, and wasn’t an overly expensive job.  Regular passenger coaches could have their interiors gutted, and finer fittings installed.   With names like Rangely, Wiscasset, Sandy River, and other towns along the line, the parlor cars were a great success.  In the mid 20’s, dining cars had been added, though the smaller coaches meant that dining was not at the same level as on the palace cars; they were essentially snack cars with decent food.  The improvements made the little railroad an even more pleasant way to travel than before—and vastly superior to road transport.

Likewise, people always need food and lumber—and the little line brought both of those to the city in abundance.  In short, the Great Depression was a hard time for the North Central, but it came through in a reasonably strong position.  By 1939, traffic was slowly growing, but the cost of locomotives and rolling stock was still low, so several multi-purpose locomotives were ordered, including 3 modern diesel-electrics for switching, and also for helper service in a few spots.

Also in the 1930’s, railfanning brought passengers to the little trains, bringing in more needed revenue.

For helper service, diesels could be almost ideal.  A helper might only be needed once or twice per day, for a long heavy train on a hill, yet a steam locomotive takes a long time to fire up, and just as long to cool down.  A diesel can be turned on in a matter of minutes, and turned off likewise.  In winter, it should have a heated engine house; they are notoriously difficult to start in the biter cold.  The use of the diesels for tasks like this is another savings.  And as one of the first railroads to use a limited amount of diesel power, the North Central Railroad diesels are some of the best in the country…

In fact, by the mid to late 1930’s, railroad men from several standard gauge lines are paying visits, learning about the practical uses of the new technology, and paying consulting fees.

Through these hard times, the North Central made some money—and management wisely plowed most of the profits into keeping the line in outstanding shape, knowing that, when prosperity returned, the North Central could be well poised to take full advantage of it…

Coming up:  War Clouds gather…

As War Clouds gathered in Europe, it did nothing but good for the North Central.  American industry slowly started revving up, and with it, the demand for wood, stone, and food.  Additionally, the growth spurred more tourist revenue.  Even the US Army Railroad experts came to take a look; 2’ gauge trench railways had done great things in the previous war. 

The railroad also spent some of its vast reserve of political capital—more of the money for things like the CCC and similar programs went to the railroad than to highways.  And—roads, bridges, and the like were built so as to provide feeders for the railroads, not to compete with them.

And then: December 7, 1941.  Total War.  By late Sunday afternoon or early evening (reports vary) the senior officer of the line available had announced that there would be no charge for men traveling to recruitment centers to join up.  Also, as men started to form lines at the recruitment centers, volunteers brought food, soda and water (and beer, of course)

The initial panic added some of the strangest cars seen in Northern Maine yet.  One of the line’s senior engineers was also a logistics officer in the Maine National Guard, and “arranged” for a dozen .50 cal machine guns and a pair of 37 mm anti-tank guns to be deployed for defending against a German invasion or air raid.

(Note: invasion and air raid fears were rampant, even in places that were simply impossible to invade.  There were rumors of Japanese carriers coming up the Red River!)

The 37 mm guns were less than practical for a 2’ gauge railroad line, but the machine guns were hastily mounted.  2 flat cars each mounted 2 twin mounts, and the other 4 guns were deployed at various critical locations.  (Accounts vary as to where, and at least one ended up on a pintel mount on a caboose.)

As the invasion scare faded, the guns were quietly placed in storage, and the flat cars parked in a sheltered location, the guns under canvas.  The flat car with a 37 mm cannon mounted to it, complete with outriggers, as only accidentally re-discovered, along with the second cannon, and the machine guns, much later.  This equipment was the basis for several scenes in the 1960’s comedy “Invasion” about the early days of the war.

US Army “Transporters” quickly prove to be ideal—take to the port and slap onto a ship, or standard gauge train. Maine’s products were being transported quite inexpensively, using cheap coal, produced with electricity from Maine’s abundant dams. 

Next: Into the post-war era...

Reply 0
pipopak

You got a very nice story.

Now I can hardly wait to see the layout. Not done yet?.

_______________________

Long life to Linux The Great!

Reply 0
DKRickman

Love the story

You asked if it would be realistic to have a 2' gauge line running today, possibly still with steam power.  With due respect to your story and the undeniable fact that you can do anything you like, and justify any variation in history somehow or another, here is my opinion:

First off, bear in mind that 75 mph on a 2' gauge line is very roughly equivalent to 150+ mph on standard gauge - a risky proposition for freight and passengers.  Most narrow gauge lines tended to be built more cheaply and with sharper curves, more like scale models of standard gauge trains, and as such were not as well suited to high speed operation.

The trouble with steam power in the 21st century (or even in the second half of the 20th) is that there is no commercial support for it.  The N&W ran steam until 1960, but in the end it was the lack of availability of things like air compressors, injectors, coaling towers, etc. that did it in.  At that time, the economics of steam vs diesel on the N&W (where the steam locos were as new as any in the country, superbly well maintained in modern facilities, and where fuel was plentiful and available from the company's own mines) was at best an even break for diesel, and possibly even in favor of steam.  With that in mind, it is unlikely that anything other than a little industrial switcher or a museum operation would continue running steam.  Thus, in your case, it makes sense to me that the line might be commercially dieselised today, but still operate steam for passenger or tourist purposes, as a sort of working museum.  There are similar operations in the country today, although all are standard gauge as far as I know.

The 2' gauge thing is interesting.  If there really is (at least in your version of history) a law exempting 2' gauge railroads from taxation, then I can definitely see the possibility of a line remaining today.  The thing you're going to have to explain is how it has remained economical to keep the line in operation with the cost of transloading all interchanged freight, but how it has not been economical to convert to standard gauge.  The best way I can think of would be to have the majority of traffic be on-line so that it does not matter what the gauge is.  In some ways, narrow gauge would offer some advantages in this case, as the cars would be smaller and moving smaller quantities might be more practical.  Interchange could be made more efficient if freight was primarily TOFC/COFC.

In the end, I would say that is is at least slightly plausible to have a 2' gauge steam operation in Maine today, but it would probably have to be a working museum, supported at least in part by local governments.  I am looking forward to seeing this layout!

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
Bernd

Great scenario

I love the scenario. I think it would work. Time to put physics aside to doing something that could have been. I like the idea of using the Garratt style engines. To some of the members hear this will be a fantasy railroad that could not have existed into the 21st century. But with a bit of imagination, why not?

Another mode of power that could be considered would be 2' gauge boxcab electrics.

Can't wait for the next installment of the story.

Bernd

P.S. this usually has the prototype guys run their engines over the cliff.

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
Jurgen Kleylein

Credibility is the issue

No, it's the layout's credibility that runs over the cliff, Bernd.  I personally don't care what people do with their layouts, but I don't see a garratt covered in graffiti by taggers to be very appealing.

Jurgen

HO Deutsche Bundesbahn circa 1970

Visit the HO Sudbury Division at http://sudburydivision.ca/

The preceding message may not conform to NMRA recommended practices.

Reply 0
Bernd

Credibility

Can you explain why you think a model railroad needs credibility?

I think that this is another part of model railroading. Making up a scenario about what could have been even if the law of physics says "NO". If done the way the Dead River & Carrabastte (SP?) was done by Frary & Hayden, why not a 21st centry 2 foot gauge line?

I don't think you'll find "taggers" way up in Maine. To cold. It would freeze their paint cans.

Bernd

 

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
proto87stores

Loading Gauge

The track gauge affects the maximum width of load carrying cars. So as commercial carriers, you end up being able to carry a much more  limited amount of tonnage or passenger width/count per car.

It's kind of a stretch to imagine a kitchen and dining car existing in those circumstances,or even a parlour car.

Andy

Reply 0
Jurgen Kleylein

Taggers

We have them in Canada, so the spray cans will work just fine. 

Apparently, credibility is low on some people's priority list, and if so, anything goes.  Have fun.

Jurgen

HO Deutsche Bundesbahn circa 1970

Visit the HO Sudbury Division at http://sudburydivision.ca/

The preceding message may not conform to NMRA recommended practices.

Reply 0
Benny

What happened to steam...

The issue with steam is one of efficiency.  For every 100 units of energy you put into a steam locomotive, you get 6-8 back.  For every 100 units you put into a diesel, you get 20-30 back.

Hence why steam locomotives disappeared so quickly.

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Plausibility

Great story.  But plausible.  Sorry no.

I'm not saying to not build your railroad or that you shouldn't build it.

Narrow gauge as a common carrier doesn't make economic sense from the standpoint that is costs almost as much as standard gauge and doesn't have the capacity, plus the interchange costs are tremendous.

The place where narrow gauge works is where it is part of a process where there is an intermediate step.  For example, the East Broad Top where the coal had to be cleaned and sorted before being shipped, the narrow gauge hauled the coal to the breaker where the processing was done and then the coal was loaded into the standard hoppers.  Having the upstream rail move narrow gauge didn't add transfer costs because they were going to take the coal out of the cars to process it.

To make a narrow gauge plausible you have to find a major source of income that requires an intermediate processing step.

For example, lets say that some new heat transfer system requires a particular type of rock, native to Maine, that is crushed, heat and chemically treated, and then coated on heat exchangers.  In older rock quarries there is a lot of waste fines of this rock that is easily dug up and because its smaller pieces is cheaper to process than digging up native rock and crushing it from large pieces.  Plus sine they are going into older quarries there isn't the room for standard gauge equipment and the roads aren't capable of handling the truck traffic.  So the railroad exists hauling the waste rock to the processing plant, where it is processed and shipped outbound on the standard gauge.

The rock move pays the bills to keep the railroad operating.  However the business slacks off on the weekend, so the railroad can then use that time to operate a tourist line.  In addition there is some small amount of general freight that is hauled.

Plausible, maybe?

 

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
Bernd

Check this out Benny

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulverised_fuel_firing

Scroll down to Merchant Shipping

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
Bernd

Car tonnage

Andy,

Why does it matter about car tonnage? The OP is building a model railroad not a real one.

The way around the width problem would be to use more cars to carry the tonnage. Doesn't matter if the car isn't wide enough, just use more cars to carry the same tonnage.

I've ridden in the 2 foot gauge cars around the cranberry bogs in Mass. Would be a little tough but a 2 person both would work won't it?

I think we've been taught to think big way to much.

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
Bernd

Narrow Gauge in Maine

Quote:

So--does this seem plausible--and if not, how can I make it more plausible?

IrishRover,

As you can see with the prototype guys answers that they can't see any viability in your scenario. I'd sure be interested in hearing the rest of the story. I hope they have not deterred you from continuing.

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
dkaustin

It has been done!

I know I have a video tape on this somewhere.  It was Bob Hayden's Carrabasset & Dead River Railway that used a similar idea.  He has diesels as well as steam engines running.  You can find a video tape of that model railroad here;

http://www.allenkeller.com/videoPages/GMR26.php

 

I hope this will give you some ideas on building your layout.  Perhaps you can design in interchange traffic with Bob's railroad.

Den 

n1910(1).jpg 

     Dennis Austin located in NW Louisiana


 

Reply 0
DKRickman

Why the negativity?

I sense some hostility toward the prototype crowd here, and I am a bit puzzled.  the question was whether or not the proposed version of history might be plausible, and that has been answered with fairly well-reasoned responses in most cases.  Obviously freelancing requires some modification of history, but some modifications are more plausible than others.

It seems to me that the proposed layout could be made plausible enough not to look out of place, but realistic justification will require some rather specific circumstances.  I have yet to hear anyone discourage the OP from building the layout, and in fact a number of people seem quite interested.  Some have even suggested ways to help make the story more plausible - another thing which IrishRover asked for.

We're all friends here.  At least, that's how I try to treat everyone.  Now, on to the important questions, like what scale is this going to be?  I'd go with Sn2.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
DKRickman

Brainstorming

Assuming that this were built in Sn2 (not that it has to be, but I'm enjoying the brainstorming) that 4-8-2 could be built out of an MDC HOn3 outside frame 2-8-0, and the Mallet and Garratt could also be built using the MDC HOn3 locos - inside or outside frame.  Personally, I would love to see a 2' gauge outside frame 4-8-2+2-8-4, something like an enlarged version of this:

It would make a spectacularly large locomotive when parked beside the more normal 2' gauge engines.  Besides, I've always had a thing for Garratts.

Diesels would pretty easy, as N scale mechanisms can often be widened to 10.5 mm gauge (HOn3), or used as is for the more accurate but less commonly used 9 mm gauge.

All in all, it sounds like an interesting and somewhat plausible idea, with a lot of opportunity for creativity.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
Bernd

Hostility

I'm sure that comment was aimed at me. No problem. I count 7 people involved in this thread so far and 4 of them came up with why not's. I could say 5, not sure. I don't see the "some" positive comments except for maybe 2.

When I see a post such as this with a thought out scenario I would say the OP already has in his mind that this is what he's going to do. He may be testing the water to see what other's might say and whether to continue to post.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Oh, why am I so quick to jump on the prototype people. Seems they don't like the fantasy of thinking up a modelers own railroad. Seem to find all sort of excuses why it won't work in the real world. Lack of imagination, maybe?

Now on with helping out IrshRover, right?

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
proto87stores

Never mind the tonnage, feel the width

I was answering the question. A dining car would need enough width for an aisle for the server to safely pass the presumably comfortably side by side seated passengers, and safe access for staff to cookers, etc.

Too much width on too narrow a gauge risks tipping over the car if unevenly heavily loaded. Hence a horseshoe curve with a view on one side could be problematic

This OP scenario does remind me of the Romney Hythe and Dymchurch Railway, included the armored gun carriages in wartime.

Andy

Reply 0
Jurgen Kleylein

Philosophy

Quote:

Why the negativity?

I wouldn't worry about it, Ken.  It's just a matter of modeling philosphy.  Bernt has always been a champion of the possible, while others like myself are more about how to make things realistic.  If your idea of model railroading is that it is a fantasy world which you can create to suit your desires (and there's nothing wrong with that,) then Bernt's advocating of every idea makes sense.  I like to keep things grounded in reality so that my modeling brings familiar memories back to those who have experienced the prototype the same way I have--flights of fancy undermine that effort.  I think my problem is that I can't picture a modern two foot gauge line in the real world (I somehow see that two foot gauge Garrett rolling past a McDonald's being a bizarre juxtaposition.)  

To each his own, and if the OP decides it's time to lay some two foot rail in the 21st century, more power to him.

Jurgen

HO Deutsche Bundesbahn circa 1970

Visit the HO Sudbury Division at http://sudburydivision.ca/

The preceding message may not conform to NMRA recommended practices.

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Negativity

I really don't see my answer as being negative in a mean or demeaning sense. 

The question wasn't whether he should build it or not and I specifically said if you want to build it, go for it, you have a story.

The question was, was it plausible, which in my mind means was it feasible or possible to have actually happened.

In my opinion , no, its not economically feasible.  Because I suggested it wasn't plausible, I suggested what I thought would make it plausible and even gave a story line that included an example.  As far as I am concerned that is "criticism" in the positive sense, a discussion.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
Rigby

I think it sounds great!  I

I think it sounds great!  I live in Maine, and have a soft spot for our 2 footers.  I support the Maine Narrow Gauge railroad in Portland, and I learned to operate a steam locomotive at the Boothbay Railway Museum program in Boothbay. 

As others have said, the key to operational plausibility if you want it, is to make all the traffic captive.  You can run potatoes to a starch mill, and from there to a port and/or a paper mill.  You can run pulp wood from the woods to the mills, and then paper to that port (most of our newsprint now goes overseas.)  You can run over (the now defunct) lift bridge into Portland, or develop a port at Wiscasset - there's deep water there.  You can run textiles from Lewiston to your port as well.  There's no good reason not to do this - if its your vision.  I'd love to see it.

If you want an additional reason for your narrow gauge to exist, site it on the wrong side of a river, and decide that the car float could only be shallow draft, but a bridge wasn't feasible because of the ice floes.  Or maybe they run a shoe-fly over the ice itself and your railroad has to move its product in the winter.  Lots of crazy stuff out there.

Reply 0
IrishRover

2 feet wide--some thoughts

Thanks for all the comments, and I'll answer a few now--real time is in short supply.  I never expected this to start such a spirited discussion.

I came up with the tax exemption (for property taxes on railroad stuff) to give the narrow gauge trains a chance to stay viable into more modern times.  If a line re-gauges, the relevant taxes come into play right away...

Regarding high speed running, there was an engineer that routinely ran at 60+ mph, and the loco was very stable.  The passengers found it to be a rough ride.  Perhaps better track and coaches could resolve that.  Specially designed locomotives might make it even faster.

The parlour car "Rangely" now at the Maine Narrow Gauge Railroad Museum in Portland, Maine was very real.  For longer distances, I would expect some success.

The Dining Car would be more of a glorified, and very nice, snack bar than anything else--I know that formal, high class sit-down meals wouldn't work here.

Post-war, US Army "Transporters" (Early forms of containerization) and then standard shipping containers would be able to be transported.  There was an 8' wide locomotive, so 8' wide containers could be transported.  Some work on the tracks might be needed

Also, for  freight, shipping timber to the factories, and furniture out on standard gauge, would be effective.

I'm actually modeling in HOn30.  I'm on a budget, and lack any skills for making true 2' equipment.  I can do decent rolling stock and locomotives (I hope on the locomotives) but I need to use commercial drives.

I'll definately be doing HO; I have a fair amount of assorted standard gauge, 1 HOn30 locomotive partly built, and an F&C Sandy River and Rangely Lakes boxcar ready to roll.  The layout will have to wait until I move.  Depending on how much space I have, I'll likely end up with an interchange between standard and narrow. 

However the line runs in the waning days of the 20th century and the new millennium, there will likely be some government subsidy.  By the 1950's and 60's, Maine may have the 2 foot pride in the way that San Francisco  had for its cable cars.

The idea of the line being a working museum is also possible.  The "North Central Railroad Museum" both runs real freights, tourist trains, and real commuters and working local traffic.  There's also some standard gauge displayed and run.  (An excuse to run lots of my older equipment from various locations...

I intend to have a believable line, with realistic operations, in both gauges.  The good thing about northern New England is that there is, to this day, very little container traffic--the trains look like they could be from a generation ago, as for the make up of the consists.

More as time permits--and once again, thanks for all the toughts

Reply 0
Bernd

Narrow Gauge in Maine - A freelance proposal

Ok, let’s see if I can start on the right foot again on this subject of plausibility of Maine two footers in the 21st century.

Back in the early ‘70’s I was in South Carver, Mass. at the then Edavill Railroad. I got to ride on the tourist line. It was quite an experience riding in such a narrow car.

In 1946 and 1947, Ellis D. Atwood purchased most of what was left of the Maine 2 footers and moved them to his cranberry bogs. He set up a 5.5 mile loop to service his cranberry bogs and haul paying passengers. For those of you who are interested in the history of this operation and the railroad go to this link: http://www.hazegray.org/rail/edaville/

The first question the OP asked.

Quote:

“I would love any thoughts on the possibility of this railroad actually working--could railroad history have gone this way?”

I say yes it could have gone this way.

The second question the OP asked.

Quote:

“So--does this seem plausible--and if not, how can I make it more plausible?”

A tax exempt status for the railroad seems plausible to me.

Quote:

“Additionally, one engineer proved that it was very possible to run these narrow gauge trains at speeds in excess of a mile per minute. (OTL, one engineer routinely ran at these speeds, but the ride was very rough.)”

I have one of the books for the Maine two footers and remember reading that fact and it is true. Now could this be true for the 21st century. I think it can if the rail line was built as, say the rail lines in the high speed corridor between DC and Boston or the rail line of any major railroad in the US.

As far as the steamers go, I don’t think high wheeled 4 axle steamers would work out to good in two foot gauge, the center of gravity would be too high. I’d go with Garratt’s. Let’s try for a little outside the box thinking. You could have the railroad develop the first turbine powered 2 foot gauge engine. After seeing how big helicopter turbines are and how fast they power off shore speed boats using almost any fuel, I think that would be a novelty. Also a thing to look at is electric powered locomotives with overhead wire collection. Probably not such a good idea if you don’t like the extra wiring involved in overhead current collection. And of course there are the good old diesel engines.

Let’s look at the rolling stock. Andy mentioned fitting a kitchen table in one of those narrow cars. He’s right, but it has been done, sort of. Check out this link to the Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways. This railroad was even narrower than the Maine 2 footers by 1/2".

http://www.festrail.co.uk/main.shtml Scroll down to “Pullman Luxury”

Then check this page out for on train dinning. http://www.festrail.co.uk/ontrain.htm?mn=12

Is the whole idea plausible? I say yes to a certain extend. Would it be economically feasible? probably not, but this is a model railroad, not the real thing.

And yes Jurgen, I can see a high speed 2 foot gauge railroad going by a Micky D, even a Wendy's and Burger King. Sorry, couldn't resist. BTW you misspelled my name. It's Bernd. The spell checker has a hard time with it too.

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

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Prof_Klyzlr

I see your NGG16...

Dear Ken,

I see your NGG16, and raise you a G42...

http://www.puffingbilly.com.au/puffing-billy-preservation-society/rolling-stock/locomotive-fleet/g-glass/

It's even _native_ prototype 30' gauge, leaving the door wide open for On30 or HOn30 to replicate a _prototype_ op...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Dear Andy, Is now the time

Dear Andy,

Is now the time to mention 15" "minimum gauge", the "3x gauge" ethos, and the work of Sir Arthur Heywood?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Arthur_Heywood,_3rd_Baronet

http://www.plateway.co.uk/booklist/info_14.html

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

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