Benny

So I've been thinking about this interface I will need for the "ultimate" Remote Model Railroad Operation

The question may seem idle at first, but then I realize perhaps the average model railroader is not familiar with MMORPGs.

I will not even discuss the most popular MMORPG, WoW, except to say that users pay $15 a month to play.  The game started in 2004 and they had 9.1 million subscribers in April of this year.  Blizzard has done EXTREMELY well with this virtual universe!!!

Before WoW there was Runescape.  I enjoyed Runescape, though I never put a dime into that game.  By 2004, I was in another game [Kings of Chaos, Bootleggers], and I determined that I would retire from MMORPGS after that latter game; I have completely ignored WoW - yes, I have never played it - and PROUD!  But it should be noted for it's commercial success!

Commercial MMORPGS are deceptively simple.  They are typically free to play,up to a level, while the play itself is often quite mindless, and the mind is usually stuck waiting for time to elapse between cooling off intervals.  These intervals are usually sucked up with the forums and chats built into these games.  It is through these chats that friendships form, alliances formulate, and wars brew.  It's all fun and games until it becomes personal, and then suddenly, having the best weaponry suddenly becomes a priority - to pummel the other people into the ground!  But this best weaponry is behind a wall, a point wall, and points cost real money - as much as $300 for 1000 points, and the items cost 200-500 points each!  I have witnessed grown adults dumping rather ridiculous sums of money on these games, all because they got mad one night at a 12 year old kid who just happened to be allied with the X family,and the X family is allied with half of every player in the environment and well vested in points themselves!

http://www.bootleggers.us/  This game was coded by a guy who I don't even think graduated from the neighboring rival university, while he was a student there.  Somehow, the game is STILL active, after 8 years?  Ridiculous.  I spent a couple years on it myself, though I never gave them a single cent.  I have too much fun talking, chatting, playing with social matters - I could care less what exactly happens to my character!

This is only one vantage point, of course.  There are other games such as the SIMs, where it is really just a contest with all your friends to see who can amass the prettiest items and use them in the most decorative manner.  The whole point of competing is an ego match of amounting the most "awww, your house is the best!" votes.  And of course,if the programmers tweak the code, then your character cannot advance up the social ladder without expending some major points for items, points that are often only available if players expend real money into the system.

My MMORPG gaming started with Kings of Chaos - a Link Clicking War - where I eventually wound up joining an alliance [you get more clicks this way] who had their Own Forum/message board set up for Alliance discussions.  Yes, people take these things pretty serious after a bit.  I'm still facebook friends with most of those with whom I used to play KOC, we'd probably be just fine face to face as we are virtually.  After all, we shared what amounts to years of life together.

So with this MMORPG aspect, where do we,the model railroad operators and model railroad builders, fit in?  If you think I see you and me as the Players, thinks again!  You and me, we have our monthly sessions where we wear the hat and play Model Railroad, but we're a bit too serious for the "normal crowd."  These people would drive us nuts.

But their money, now this we can use!  And each time they "play" on one of our layouts, we'd MAKE money with our layouts - fancy that!!  the more money we make, the more things we can buy for the layout; the more room we can purchase; the more people we can hire to build it WITH us!

It has taken Minature Wunderland 10 years to build what a group in California has spent close to 60 years building, and they are already taking the records for visitors through their doors.  They MADE between 6 and 10 million last year, - with a dinky toy train layout!!! [I say this with the fondest of sentiments - MW is one of the finest layouts I've ever seen!]  Now if we build a universe where even those stuck at home can go then we have a much larger audience we can tap into, which means there is market potential if it's done right!

My Model Railroad Gaming experience comes by and large via Railroad Tycoon Platinum II.  It is a FUN game,and I really enjoy the economics involved with it - from making money shipping freight, to making money and forcing mergers via the stock market, it's a good game for the head!  And yes, it's akin to providing some ideas that tranlate well to an MMORPG.

So here is how my MMORPG works.  We give each player some virtual space, and the community we give a forum.  That forum, we delete all out every couple of days, because this is how fast MMORPG conversations move, and deleting it out is the most logical solution to the problem - it makes everybody happier!  This provides each player with Vanity and Community.  Next, we bring in the "game" itself.  To play on a layout, they will have to use Tokens.  Every 24 hours,they will automatically earn 1 token.  Free.  Oh, aren't we the charitable ones!!  They can then use this token to buy time on a model railroad layout - any one that is available on the network with a train available.  They can pick through the trains on the "Board for Hire," select that train, pay their fee, and get moving on a real model railroad anywhere on earth.

Now as they "play" on our layout, the system grades them.  Each car has a timer,and each time a car is delivered ahead of time, they get reward pay.  Every time they derail, they lose reward pay.  Every time the complete a run, they get reward pay.  Every time they do something horrendous, they get penalized a big red Ribbon of shame that goes in their record.  At the end of the run, their reward pay is converted into Coins.  These Coins, they can then use to buy stuff for their personal space, or perhaps they'd be given a special prize at the end of a very successful run, or so.  Vanity is such a powerful entity!  they could even take these coins and purchase more Tokens, if they were to do so.  And we;d give them ribbons, too, for their Resume, which tells other people just how good they are at operating a model railroad.

Each layout would be allowed to set their Token Cost.  Tokens, in turn, may cost anywhere between $1USD = 10 Tokens.  I could see something like La Mesa charging 100 or even 1000 tokens for a run on their fabulous layout, and I could see them GETTING it on a routine basis!

How long this game lasts, well, it's unknown because even rickety MMORPGs are still up and running strong. [I was Shocked to see Bootleggers still up, for instance]  Regardless, as long as the game lasts, we the model railroaders would be able to build even more fantastic model railroads than anything we've ever envisioned before, because, well, we'd have a REAL financial backing behind our dreams!!  Some of us could quit our day jobs and actually WORK in model train clubs, and make a modest living while doing it!  Imagine that!!

Anyhow...this one takes a community to work...as all MMORPGS do!

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
DKRickman

Interesting idea

You seem to have a decent grasp on the concept of an MMORPG, and on railroad games (I started with RR Tycoon on DOS, and still enjoy RT3).  I suspect that you may have a decent idea, by combining the two.  The only point that I would disagree with, I suspect, is the need or demand for a physical model railroad on which to operate.

For those of us who prefer a physical layout, I suspect that most, like myself, would not be interested in an online version.  As much as I enjoy operating a layout, I enjoy being able to go over and sit and chew the fat for an hour as well.  while that can be done on line, it will never be able to replace or even come close to talking over a bowl of reds late at night after a club meeting, something I remember from my time in a club perhaps even more vividly and fondly than operating the layout.  So I suspect that most current "serious model railroaders" would not be interested in this idea.

What of the gamers and armchair modelers, though?  For them, people who (especially gamers) are quite accustomed to a completely virtual world, I suspect that a virtual railroad would serve just as well or better.  Imagine being able to take part in an operating session which involves hauling a 150 car train 200 miles, or laying track to reach some new destination, or switching a huge hump yard.  Those things are trivial in a virtual world, but almost impossible on any physical layout.  So, for the people most likely to be interested in and dedicated to a railroad-themed MMORPG, I strongly suspect that a virtual world would be the obvious choice.

I know you feel strongly that remote operation of a physical layout is desirable, and I know that there are others who will agree.  I am not going to say that it is impossible or impractical or wrong, but I will respectfully suggest that it is not the best way to make a business based on a game or MMORPG environment.  I really do think you are on to something with this concept.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
Chris VanderHeide cv_acr

No thanks

Wile I am sure that remote control of a model railroad can be done, I certainly would not be interested in opening up access for any idiot over the Internet to directly control trains on my layout. Not too mention a certain amount of infrastructure would need to be installed and the layout left running for people to access it. I don't know why any layout owner would want this headache. I can see how a user would find it neat to control a train on a model railroad somewhere, but I just don't see the hobbyist layout owner going for it. Most of us are building layouts because we like to, and to relax. Not to run an amusement park.
Reply 0
DKRickman

Agreed

Quote:

I don't know why any layout owner would want this headache.

That's another reason why I feel that a virtual environment would be a better option here.  Again, I'm not saying that it is the only option, but my opinion (and we all know what that's worth) is that it is a better option.

I can say that I cannot imagine the circumstances which would induce me to spend the money to make such a thing possible on my layout, nor can I imagine allowing people who I do not know or trust access to my custom built rolling stock.

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
hminky

These guys are trying to take

These guys are trying to take "virtual" railroading to a MMORPG:

http://www.run8studios.com/

Harold

Reply 0
Toniwryan

Trainz?

  I was under the impression that the Trainz crowd already had something like this in play.  While not a pay to play service, the regularly schedule interchange, and compute revenue for their member roads.  I have never played with Trainz, and was disappointed when Microsoft cancelled their train simulator project a few years ago....

 

Toni

Reply 0
arthurhouston

Two different worlds

DO NOT SEE ANY CONNECTION BETEEN THE TWO, OTHER THAT VIRTUAL USES IMAGE OF TRAIN.
Reply 0
hminky

Geez, you don't have to

Geez, you don't have to SHOUT!!!

Just pointing out MMORPG is available in it's only logical form, virtual.

Since it is difficult to do in "virtual" I can't imagine how it would work in "solid".

No, Trainz multiplayer isn't the same, Run8 is going to have the ability to have "crews" and a dispatcher.

Harold

Reply 0
Benny

Once again, the "Why!"

I realize it may not be openly obvious to why we would want to do such a thing.

On the surface level, everybody here is focusing on the gaming aspect - but we are not gamers!  We are Model Railroaders and Operators!  We like to build model railroads and then operate them in a prototypical manner!  how on earth could #1 be related to #2??

Let us be frank; this hobby is expensive, and with all the EXCITING improvements in the pipes, it's getting more expensive.  Clubs are in a precarious predicament where they can barely afford the right to existence - that is, the procurement of property, of buildings, of infrastructure that will keep them in place on a permanent basis, without all this new stuff!

Let us also be Honest: the Social fabric, being what it is, has changed.  In the old days, if I had to move to San Antonio, I'd give up my friends in Tucson and make new fiends in San Antonio.  My generation does not do this anymore; we maintain our friendships through things like Facebook, even if we're not as close as we were.  I can be in San Antonio, and yet still be right along side the people in Tucson.

Go back to the Miniature Wonderland story.  We have a model railroad layout that has accumulated 1 million visitors in the last year, at anywhere between $6 and $10 per visitor.  The layout EMPLOYS 260 people.  Any light bulbs going off yet?  How would you like to make $30,000 or $50,000 a year PLAYING Toy Trains?!

Pull it all together: Our Clubs need better income statements in order to develop financial independence - and some of us at home would no doubt enjoy similar benefits if we were able to run a similar empire from our basements.  It would be difficult to expect a second layout like Minature Wonderland to attract the same level of attention; the next layout must go one step further, and I believe the public would be Estatic if they knew they could get a chance to RUN the layout instead of just looking at it.

And of course, there are our Operators who have moved, but would still be a member of our clubs and participate in ops sessions if there was the means to do it without traveling.  As model railroaders, we care more about our fellow operators than we do the general public.  Hence, thus follows.

The main reason we'd be building this remote system is to allow our remote friends the opportunity to be a part of our operations sessions.  And while some of you INSIST the only way you can be social is In-Person interaction, I dare say if you had a radio mic on, and you were n the radio network everybody else is on in the club, you'd be just as "social" as you'd be if you were physically In the club building!  And as I percieve there'd be a number of people who'd just want to have a bull Session, there'd be a channel on that radio system where everybody can go and Chat about that crap if they wanted to!  Now that I think about it, the "perfect" radio system would allow you to listen to more than one channel at once, but you'd only be able to talk on one channel at a time!  And each channel would be specific about what voice traffic may be allowed on there.  That'd keep the conversations nicely managed!

But we'd have to pay for it...and to be honest, it'd be nice to have the means to put DCC switches in, and a nice Signaling system, and such.  If remote couplers came along, wouldn't we as a club want them too?!  We could buy more, better locomotives - something my local club has only recently been able to enjoy because members have donated pieces to the layout.  Financial Independence - that could REALLY make a club fun!!

As the club becomes big enough, we'd offer the general public admission to simply walk around and look at the layout.  We'd charge them between $5 and $10 per person for this privilege, which Hamburg has already proven is possible.  If they want to run the trains, they'd be able to buy time on the layout by purchasing a runon the Remote Ops board and using a terminal where the interior looks like the interior of a locomotive cab - because some people are in the hobby of replicating cab interiors, and their club membership dues are worth every bit as much as yours or mine!! - and run their train on the layout.

So here's how it works: M-F, "the Public" runs the club layout - remotely, from stations in the layout building, and from online.  Club members, either paid or volunteer, manage the layout.  I'd estimate there's about ten full time positions on a Remote Layout like this, including an Administrator, a couple Moderators, a Dispatcher, a yard operator, and at least two people on the floor managing derailments, stalls, switch moves and coupling [until remote switches and remote couplers become widespread]and then the maintenance crew [one track, one car, one locomotive] who could double as police and derailemnt crews.

Let us suppose the layout allows for 10 trains in an hour [this layout, then, would be only perhaps 800-1000 square feet], and we charge $5 for each run.  It's a very nice layout, a well respected run, we can get away with this rate.  That's $50 an hour, $400 a day, $2000 a week.  How long does it take a traditional club to bring in $2000?  It'd take a club of 20 people, each paying $15 a month in dues, 7 months to reach that level!

Now clearly the income isn't that well matched with the manpower it'd take to run the layout, so how do we reward volunteers for their time?  Quite simply put, we pay them in "Future Space."  In other words, as the club brings in money, they will have the ability to expand.  As they expand, new space will become available.  Who gets the space, and who gets to build in the space?  If you have one guy who volunteers on the layout more than anybody else, he should have more say over more of that space!  There'd be ground rules, of course, but I think this would keep things manageable.  the other way would be to make Club Stock, and give out/sell Club Stock...but this side of the house needs more thought...I don't have ALL the answers!

Now one a month, or twice a month, we'd Lock Out the Public and have our private "Club Operating sessions."  Remote Club members  would use special pass codes to join these sessions.

And quite often, we'd have people working on the new sections of the layout, or working on structures and scenery in the operations sections, doing what they love to do: BUILDING model railroad layouts.  They'd have a budget we can only DREAM of now!

Some of you may get caught on the eye candy that comes with the MMORPG - the experience points, the tokens, the coins, the awards, the ribbons, the prizes, even the demerits and the red Flags - but the main point to remember is that all of these details are there first and foremost for the Gamers.  They are here for your Game, you are here for their Money so you can build a bigger, better, more functional layout!

Number one, the eye candy are carrots, missions, or goals; crack to keep the people playing the game. 

Number two, they're there to establish reputation.  Yes, I said demerits and red flags - and if you do something bad on my layout, it goes onto your permanent record.  Demerits would slowly expire, but red flags would be permanent until annulled or expunged.  I may set up my layout session so that in order to operate on my layout, you MUST have 50,000 experience points and NO MORE than 15 demerits and only ONE red flag at most.  Hence, I've now limited my global operating pool to those who are experienced with running layouts, who have a fairly good operating record, and haven't had too many problems in the past.  Someone with a bunch of expensive brass may limit their operators to those with 500,000 Global experience, 100,000 Local experience, NO MORE than 5 demerits, and NO red flags!  In other words, these operators are hard nose, very stringent, and very well behaved - just the kind you'd want on such a layout!!  The MMORPG Profile provides a very accurate means of screening potential engineers.

Ken, I've discovered there IS a place for your Virtual Railroad: Training!  Each layout could have a virtual duplicate of their layout, and you and I may be required to earn so many Local Practice Experience Points on that virtual railroad before we're ever even allowed to operate on the Real One to earn Local Experience points [automatically added into our Global Experience Point Sum].  It'd be Free to practice on this virtual railroad, provided a train is available, but then it would be very cheap to set up these virtual environments.

So the whole point of the MMORPG, in the end, is to establish reputations and generate cashflow.  The point of public operations is to generate more foot traffic through our physical display [because people are more enticed to come see something they Might be able to operate, versus something they only get to look at].  The point of our remote environment is to provide a controllable environment within which the public will be able to operate the layout in the first place. The point of getting more people operating is to generate more interest in Model Railroading.  The point of getting people operating online is to expand our social community "beyond the walls" of the layout room.  And finally, the point to doing all of this is to generate the cashflow that is necessary to develop strong Independent club organizations who actually have a fighting chance at buying and building large buildings and large layouts.

I hope this all makes sense.  For those people who are uncomfortable with sharing, I can understand that they have absolutely no use for any of this.  I for one, though, believe a lot of people would really enjoy the hobby if it were only more accessible to them,and in all reality, this is not the most accessible hobby!

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
yardplan

ENDER'S GAME (1977-1985-1991)

But what if the Winner-Take-All is a six-year old?

 

##

 

Reply 0
Bernd

What I

perceive here is somebody wanting to play in somebody else's sand box and their toys because the are inept at building their own sand box and toys, selling it under the moniker of a money maker. Which would appeal to the greedy.

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
Benny

...

And what I perceive here, is someone who has never learned how to play with others, nor understands the economics of what it takes to make great things happen.  If anything, I perceive it as Greedy to build a large layout in one's basement and never let the world see it, much less let the world play on it - afterall, there's a bunch of resources you've tied up there with life and time you could have done something else.

I've built layouts.  I've come to a very firm understanding that the best use of my time is on the Club Layout.  Every year, the club takes pictures for a club calendar.  The impact of my work is such that 5 pictures in last year's calendar very prominently display my work.  And I didn't stage the pictures, nor suggest the pictures, nor take the pictures, nor did I compose the calendar.  The proceeds from the calendar sales go to the club - and I dare say that is a fine use of my time and skills!

Building a layout requires a permanent space.  My space is presently taken up by my workshop.  When I have room for a railroad again, I will have at minimum 100 square feet of workshop space, before I even consider layout space.  With the nature of my work and the nature of the economy, it is unrealistic to start building a project that will take 2-5 years to come close to completing.  It's also a perfectly bad waste of my resources.  Right now it is a matter of Order of operation.  For instance, I took my home layout money and bought a laser cutter instead, along with some more of the tools I will need for the day I do get serious about building one again. Even without a home layout, I already HAVE a layout I work on - it's the club layout!

when I leave, I'd love to stay a member of that club - and that club would love to have my dues, even if I wasn't there.  I'd be willing to pay, even if I'm not able to operate every month due to my work schedule, so long as I could operate when that schedule does allow it.  Even if I'm in Asia, Europe, even on the end of the US; heck, just being up the road in Phoenix would be too far to physically drive for each ops session!  This system would allow it - that's what social networking is all about, staying in touch.  MMORPGs are Social Networking, with a gaming twist!

You may be "angry" at Minature Wonderland for charging admission - for being greedy  - because I'm sure you would say "it should be FREE!."  In the real world, I believe they're doing it right.  They're giving the people an experience, and the people are shelling out for it.  You may baulk at the idea of paying someone to operate on their layout, or you're scared that this will mean you have to pay admission to even go SEE another model railroader's layout, but I say, why not?  They have fun, we make money; we make money, we make them more fun, and have much fun ourselves through the process by having funds to chase our dreams.  I don't see what's so "greedy" about such an enterprise.

I understand you will never have use for such a system nor for the club that engages in such activities.  I ask then, rhetorically, why you keep coming back to the "club" that you know has nothing to do with the things you want to pursue.

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
Hobo Al

Thanks for this link

Harold,

Thanks for this link. I had not heard of them before and their stuff looks very exciting for online op sessions with others.

Al

Reply 0
Hobo Al

Yes, Trainz has online ops sharing

Yes, Trainz already has online virtual ops sharing, but I have not used it in almost a year so. But the last time I used it, it seemed very promising.

For virtual op sessions with other users, I do recommend giving Trains a look-see.

Al

Reply 0
Bernd

Spoken

Quote:

And what I perceive here, is someone who has never learned how to play with others, nor understands the economics of what it takes to make great things happen. If anything, I perceive it as Greedy to build a large layout in one's basement and never let the world see it, much less let the world play on it - afterall, there's a bunch of resources you've tied up there with life and time you could have done something else.

like a true liberal. Wants somebody else to do the work and they reap the benefits with out putting anything in other than money. Not every one gets a trophy in the real world of life. There are losers and there are winners.

I belonged to a club once, Kodak City Model Railroad Club, now the Rochester Model Railroad club. I got out because of the silly politics they played. I have now use for that.

And as far as paying to get to see Miniature Wonderland, I would have no problem paying them to see the layout once.

As far as being greedy for not letting anyone play on my layout, sure I'm greedy it's mine why should I share it with somebody like you? What I do share is my knowledge of model building techniques and resources for others to be able to accomplish the same and I give it without cost.

I believe I've hi-jacked this thread long enough. On to more productive adventures than exchanging words with you.

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
wp8thsub

What?

Quote:

Spoken...like a true liberal.  Wants somebody else to do the work and they reap the benefits with out putting anything in other than money.

That type of comment has no place here.

Quote:

If anything, I perceive it as Greedy to build a large layout in one's basement and never let the world see it, much less let the world play on it.

Well that explains a lot of the discussion in this thread and others.  Many people have hobbies that consume more time and/or money than building a layout.  They are under no obligation to do anything with them but enjoy for themselves.  People share to the extent they are comfortable, and that's a function of an individual's personality.

Rob Spangler MRH Blog

Reply 0
Reply