Well said, Joe!

I couldn't agree more.  Manner are important on the web as they are in person.

Rick

The problem is....

When you disagree with someone elses opinions or views of how the hobby should be, people tend to take it personally and hold it against you. That's just wrong. People need to remember that disagreement in forum discussion is seldom meant to be malicious. Because I disagree with someone about some certain subject doesn't necessarily mean I dislike them or that I can't find common ground on another subject with them. I'd bet that if most of us met in person, we'd all be great friends even if we'd had heated disagreements on the forum. Too often people take things way to personally on this forum and on others. 

Michael

Specific examples

I don't believe Joe is saying we should not disagree or offer criticism. I believe what Joe is saying (Joe, please correct me if I'm wrong) is that we can be nice.  I'll give some concrete examples:

When commenting on a color choice:

"That paint color looks like cr--!

Better: "Why did you choose that paint color?" or "Have you thought about using so-n-so color?"

When commenting on the corner seams on a structure:

"You did a lousy job on your corners!"

Better: "You might want to think about doing such-n-such when working on corners as will give a better result."

When commenting on a layout design:

"Your yard layout is stupid and and won't work"

Better: "Have you thought about this (insert suggestion here) to help improve the flow in your yard area?"

Did you notice that all three of the "better" responses offered constructive suggestions?

Rick

I took it to mean both

What you are describing and what I'm talking about as well Rick.  At any rate, I still think my point remains valid.

Sometime back I posted a request for help with developing an operating plan for my railroad and I was told ( very nicely)  that I may not be getting responses from people because I had been in disagreement with folks on other threads about other subjects. To me that's just plain wrong and extremely petty. I don't have a malicious bone in my body when it comes to fellow model rails, but I do strongly disagree with some of the views espoused here and in the national model rail media. Because I disagree with someone about any given subject would never stop me from offering help to them with another subject if I happen to have experience or expertise there. That's all I'm saying.

Michael

I admit it

There are many posts I don't even read anymore, depending on either the person writing it or the topic title.  Its easy to see where things will degrade and I really would rather do something more positive and productive with my time.  I get enough negativity in my job, I don't want it in my hobby.

You're right Noah

Noah:

You're right of course, but for better or for worse some of your posts have come across as just critical enough that we've gotten emails from people about you. Just goes to show you how powerful negative posts can be online.

I like to use a pipe analogy on communication over the internet. If I put in 2 and 3 on one end of the pipe and 6 comes out the other end, then the 5 I intended to have come out didn't make it. So if I put 2 and 2 on one end of the pipe knowing the intended 5 will come out the other end of the pipe, then I have succeeded in communicating the message even though what I put in was an altered message at the source.

That's the point here with making negative posts online. With negative posts, you can't just put in one end what you want to come out the other or it generally will be taken as too harsh, people will write you off as a negative so-and-so, etc. You need to tone it down (even though you may feel more strongly than your writing indicates) and then what comes out the other end in your post will be just about right.

I do have to admit I've done this wrong myself more than a few times, so this is speaking from hard knocks. I still find posts online where people are saying, "I'll never listen to a thing that Fugate says ... he's just a pompous jerk ...".

Anyone who knows me personally knows I am pretty easy-going, I'm quick to apologize if I've offended you, and I am willing to admit when I'm wrong - so having people who have never met you "hate your guts" feels kind of strange. But that illustrates the power of negative posts online - they're like gasoline and nitro-glycerin.

I think there is also a

I think there is also a component the poster (not the one who comments negatively) has in this. Let's say I post a picture lf my latest efforts and say "What do you think of my XYZ."  I think this opens the door to negative comments.  If on the other hand the poster says..."Here is my latest effort.".... In this case, I would be less likely to post a negative comment because the poster is not asking for comments.  In this case I would only respond if there was something I really liked and I would highlight that.  Not trying to get the negative comments off the hook, but some folks are looking for honest critiques and others are just sharing... sometimes it is hard to tell what the poster wants.

-SeanM

It floors me....

That someone would E-mail you about me, Joe.  I would never do that unless I thought someone was being downright abusive or posting inappropriate content. I strongly believe in my views and don't back down from them but I don't think I've ever crossed the lines of good taste and good manners. I'll take this opportunity right now to  sincerely apologize to anyone here I've ever offended enough to think they had to E-mail you about it. I will admit to enjoying  spirited debate about certain things but as I've already stated several times there is never any malicious intent.

Here's a perfect example of the way I look at things. I make no secret of my disdain for a lot of Tony Koester's views on the hobby and the way he presents them but if I went to a convention where  a lot of of the "big names" were present and available to the public, he would be the first person I'd seek out to shake his hand and talk to! Of course, I'd then want to engage him in spirited debate about his views but it would all be good natured! LOL!!!

I agree that things can come across different or more harsh online than one might intend because we don't have facial expressions, tone of voice and body language to rely on but I also think that maybe some folks need to lighten up a bit and quit taking things so dang seriously!

Michael

Careful what ya say

Michael,

You summed it up here...

"I agree that things can come across different or more harsh online than one might intend because we don't have facial expressions, tone of voice and body language to rely on..."

But beyond that, I think some folks get a bit too courageous on-line and hide behind the computer screen. Before you hit the send button, you should ask yourself if you'd actually say those words to the person you are addressing or talking about if you were looking them in the eye. I bet a lot of the time you might restructure things a bit, and soften the tone.

For example, the fact that you would use the word "disdain" when describing your views toward Tony K. might be a bit harsh. Tony's a great guy. Personally, he's done a ton for me. But I don't agree with everything he says. For instance, I don't agree with his views on the merits of flatland railroading vs. mountain railroading. I don't agree that transition-era tt&to ops. are any more interesting than my 1980-era MBS ops. I don't agree that super-narrow shelf layouts (6 or 7" wide) can accomplish the same effects scenickly as a 12"-wide shelf etc. And there are other things too that make me scratch my head and say hmmm... I understand the point, but I just don't agree. But he's a mover and shaker and he always gets me thinking. Like McClelland, he's a pioneer and an icon in the hobby. He's got great passion and he's a great guy.

Yep, you might meet him someday and debate him, but would you say to his face, "Tony, I look upon you with contempt and I despise you"? I don't think so! But that's what "disdain" means. So if someone reads that you have disdain for someone, it's a turn-off, and in essence a personal attack.

Mike Confalone

And be equally careful what ya read....

I did not say that I had "disdain" for Tony, never met the man although I'd truly like to someday.  I said I had "disdain for a lot of his views on the hobby and the way he presents them" which is still pretty accurate for how I feel but your point is well taken.  "Disdain" for a persons views and disdain for a person are two totally different things in my book so this is a perfect illustration of how easily someone's meaning can be misconstrued. Perhaps dislike would have been a better choice of word.

Michael

Watch the subtle distinctions

Subtle distinctions generally get past most people, unfortunately. This is especially true online.

The example of "disdain TK's views" illustrates this. If you use "disdain" in a post with TK's name, the take-away most people get is the poster disdain's TK.

When making posts about people's work (or about their opinion) and they're not part of the expected audience, I often ask myself, "what if this guy happens to read this?" In other words, would I say this to his face?

Generally not, is the answer.

If you meet Tony in person and have a chance to talk with him, you might say something more like, "Tony, I don't completely agree with you on _____." Yes, in your heart of hearts, it may be more like vehemently oppose that viewpoint, but I won't use that language with them since it just drives a wedge into the relationship rather than providing an opportunity to dialog about it.

While I may disagree with someone, I also keep in mind there's a chance I don't completely understand all their reasons. I'm open to getting a more complete picture of the opposing view because I want to learn, and it helps me refine my own views.

It's hard to determine subtle distinctions in online posts, so it's best to leave some room for dialog by being less forceful and spelling out things more instead of just assuming they'll get it.

I dunno,,,

... it bothers me that negative critism is viewed so umm...  negatively?  I think a lot of people can and do become overly sensitive at times.  Sometimes a terrible job is just that, a terrible job.  I can be my own worst critic especially when I've done something and take long hard objective look at it.  I tend not to get emotionally hung up on peoples opinions about my work or other peoples work. 

That said, if I did something that stinks I would want to know about it.  

It can be confusing at times

But.....As my boss at work always tells us that life is full of what he calls" teachable Moments" . In other words if you agree or disagree with someone you can find a way to communicate your wants and views in a manner that the person can learn from you and not be offended. I find that before i post anything i go back and re-read it just to make sure im not offending anyone. Words can be harsh even if the person writing or saying the words is not trying to hurt anyone. We all recive constructive critisism differntly. But I think when youre asking others for advice you have to be ready for someones opinion that may not be to youre liking.

Communications> Thanks Joe

Joe,

I understand your point. I know when I'm not careful, I can use sharp words. I have done this in some of my posts. I try to not write a quick reply if I strongly disagree with a post. I work very hard not to be personal about subjects, I know I have not always been successful.

It is best to talk about the subjects and not about people. We should temper our words in any event. A criticism about a subject to any modeler can discourage him to not share or even to leave the hobby. We should not ignore a post because it is a simple question by a novice, we should help if we can.

i have noted that Ken Rickman has one of the best online manners of any that post here. We could all learn from him.

Communications is part of life,. The ability to communicate can improve our hobby and make it easier and better. I have worked in companies where communications was a problem, but we were not allowed to talk about the problem. Needless to say this leads to other problems.

As adults we should be able to point and counter point without getting nasty. The results of a discussion can improve the original idea. We should all try not to counter a personal attack with another personal attack, besides Joe can shut us down if we do.

I enjoy this forum, and find it both interesting and informative. I will try to be a better diplomat in the future.

Regards,

John

*********************************************************************************************************************************************

In my opinion, no single design is apt to be optimal for everyone.  Donald Norman

Please Don't let this forum become status quo and bland

I like honesty and friendly banter. There are way...way too many guys out there who take constructive criticism as an attack on them personally. I left the MR forums for just that reason.

...

If you read something you don't like, consider it a Reverse Running, just outside of the context of a reverse running...

Really though, the whole free exchange of ideas is built not on the principle of agreement but rather on the principle of tolerance.  And tolerance is not what you're exercising when everything agrees with what you already think.  Tolerance is what happens when you hit something you don't believe in, or something you find disagreeable to how you think.  By our agreement with each other to uphold each other's free expression, we also agree to exercise tolerance from within ourselves.

Tolerance does not mean you simply stay quiet,though.  It means you take the issue to task, but by the principles of tolerance, you stay focused on the issue and do not allow it to stray into Personal Attacks - which is easy to do, some days...

That's my take, anyways...

Constructive Criticism...

Constructive criticism is an oxymoron and a figure of speech that has never made much sense to me.

Broken down to the basics it is little more than a contradiction in terms.

I don't get anything constructive out of the definitions of criticism myself.  I think that perhaps constructive criticism is really a term generally applied by seemingly civilized people to mask and attempt to excuse some fairly uncivilized behavior. [wink]

Here are some thoughts I found on constructive criticism that should perhaps be considered by all, BEFORE providing any negative feedback.

Lets keep in mind that regardless of what you think your purpose is when providing constructive criticism, the recipient of your critique may interpret your words negatively.  Formatting criticism in a way that is constructive is a difficult skill to master.

I think is is a fundamental element that is often overlooked by those offering what they think is constructive criticism.

Just because one has a model railroad, does not make one an authority on model railroading, at least in my mind.  Few forum interactions include personal relationships.  If the person you are offering constructive criticism to is not someone whom you have a personal relationship with, or you are not a recognized authority on model railroading...just smiling and moving on might be the proper response for you to give.

Bluntly pointing out what one feels is wrong with a fellow modelers work, is not being constructive at all.

Offering FRIENDLY suggestions on how something might be improved next time is a constructive thing to do.

We all should try to remember that even though we think we are being helpful and constructive with our criticism, that we may not be perceived to be so by those receiving our criticism.

Well, at least that is my take on it.  If I am wrong, and you are a recognized authority on my opinions, and/or you have a personal relationship with me, please feel free to offer your constructive criticism.  Otherwise, it's best to just smile and move on.  [grin]

Who, me?

And here I have been feeling awfully negative lately, as well as unproductive.  I don't know that I'm any better than anyone else here, but I sincerely thank you for the compliment.  I always try to make sure that what I post (or say or do anywhere in life) is both honest and helpful.  If I have something to say, I try to defend it with reason - and if I cannot do that, I keep it to myself.  At least, that's the theory.  I'm not perfect by any means, and I've made a few major blunders here and elsewhere.

In defense of constructive criticism

Kevin, you make some excellent points, and simply smiling and moving on is often the best course.  With that said, I would like to offer my take on the subject of constructive criticism.  To me, it is saying "I noticed X on your model.  I've had good results doing it this way, and you might fid this helpful as well."  As a concrete example, "I noticed the roof shingles on your building are a scale foot thick.  Have you tried or heard of this product/technique?"  In order to be helpful and specific, one must point out a specific issue - that's the criticism part.  Offering advice based on either authoritative knowledge or personal experience is the constructive part.

I would argue that none of us are model railroading authorities.  Most of us have some realm of authority, some particular aspect of the hobby in which we have achieved some success, and in that subject we may be able to offer advice to our peers here.  And, if you think about it, smiling and moving on would sort of defeat the purpose of having a forum in the first place.  We are here to share and learn from one another, not to take a class from or consult the master.

Like I said, it's just my take on the subject.  I'm no more of an authority than anyone else here, on our hobby or on anyone else's opinions.  So, take it for whatever it's worth to you.

Agree with you Kevin

After all is there really an authority in a hobby? This is all about fun. I mean, what i may think is the correct way to do something and someone else has a differnt way, does that mean im wrong ,or that they are wrong? Sure, i understand there are alot of experinced pepole out there who may have insight on how to achieve expected results without the screw ups.That is why i visit these forums. Im always looking for tips and tricks that keeps the hobby what its supposed to be. FUN! When it becomes work, then i dont have fun with it anymore.

And by the way....

I have to admit. Mr Rickman has offerd me lots of good advice and I do apreciate it alot. Now if I could only learn to type without makin so many darned spelling mistakes lol!

No authority, but working standards and real railroad facts

There certainly isn't a human who has authority over hobby aspects.

But there are agreed Standards, such as the NMRA wheels and track standards, that make it possible for one modeler's train to be guaranteed to work on another modelers layout. Especially helpful for risk-free buying of the newest, very expensive, RTR stuff.

Real railroads exist too, and so can be referred to provide answers to questions that model makers or users frequently have.  Again, not a human giving orders, but they exist, as does the common technology and way they work and the common standards that they agree to that allows them to interchange for operations purposes. Those include a whole bunch of  facts that can't be changed, nor wishfully imagined to be different, or disappear.

Just because someone mentions some aspect of the standards or points out a prototype fact for information, doesn't meant that it is automatically a negative criticism.

Clarifying Constructive Criticism

I guess I should have said that some guys take ANY kind of suggestion good or bad as an attack on their character and it just falls apart from there. There's a poster on another forum who lists this at the end of his signature.

"Rule 1: This is my railroad.

Rule 2: I make the rules.

Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1"

​He should expect ZERO questions or compliments. I mean, what's the point of posting if you never accept anyones comments positive or otherwise......

knowing someone offline

Great points from a lot of folks. I don't know  if this one applies here or not, but suspect it does or will as the forum stays up. Many times veteran posters on forums like this know each other in person, and their exchanges online can seem to cross a line to those not in the circle of friends, but that real world relationship cushions the banter. Not sure if that applies to any examples here or not, but usually the lack of body language clues changes the tone of online discourse far more than most realize. In person we rely so much more on the non-verbal clues given during a conversation than the actual words.

I've often found on some of my online fishing forums that the best posts I make are the ones I never click enter on, or those I delete PDQ.

Peter