No inputs?

I've been thinking more on the roundhouse as I really would like to move it to the edge so people can see inside. One thought is to have a entrance/exit on each side that goes to the main. Then have a turnout from the main that would go to the servicing facilities and back shops. this way i wouldn't have to run across the main but rather down the main. I guess it's really not much differfence other than it would be easier to layout and fit than putting in some crossings.

Swap the yard?

Hey Crusty,

Out of curiosity, could you move the entire roundhouse/engine shop over to the balloon loop in the lower righthand corner?  I remember reading that this wasn't part of the prototype, though I could be making that up, but it looks like a much better option than cramming all of that into a little corner.  You could even go as far as to drop the mainline loop below grade so you could use the entire top of the blob to model the engine service facility. If you were to pursue this route, shift the entire yard and mainlines over a good foot or two to allow for the facility to fit better.

If you aren't willing to break away from the prototype (trust me, I'm still trying to figure out a way to do the same for my layout) may I suggest reducing the roundhouse to just a few stalls positioned along the lower wall - enough to house a few locos.  This way you can keep the mainlines and engine shop where they are and still have a believable roundhouse scene.

Final suggestion: I don't see any other way to bring your roundhouse to the table edge without routing your mainlines below grade and under your service facility.  You can achieve this by flipping your yard over its horizontal axis and running the mainlines along the wall.  You'll probably have to incorporate a steep grade to get under the facility but you can lessen it by setting the elevation of the facility above grade, making more room for the mainlines below.

Hope those suggestions offer some sort of help to you.

Thanks Johnny

As for the roundhouse/yard, this is the way the prototype has it. So maybe you are thinking of another layout. But like you, I keep struggling with the thought of deviating from the prototype. I know of a layout in Texas that has modeled this area and they did as you suggested and only did a few stalls. 

As for moving the roundhouse to the end, then it would interfere when I go to build the second deck and have to put the helix in there. Also the prototype roundhouse was a 360 roundhouse. But I'm still struggling on how to replicate this and also want to try and figure out how to move it to the edge so that I can do a cutaway of it.

I like your idea of a dual level and running the main under the servicing area. My other thought as I stated was to run the servicing lines off the main vice the roundhouse and run the mains along the wall. I'll continue to keep working it until I'm ready to start building. I've got some time as I'm currently doing a lot of travel for work.

What about the peninsula?

Crusty,

I am just throwing this out there, but can you explain why a 360 degree roundhouse cannot sit out on the peninsula instead of being jammed into the corner?  It seems to me that this roundhouse is very important to you.  It would make a center piece to the layout, so why can't it go in the center?

Den

I second Den's thought

You would get the added benefit of being able to increase the length of your yard tracks.  They are really too small to be useful, even in N Scale...  Even a foot of additional length would be better...

Ryan

Interesting

Thanks for the idea, I hadn't thought of that. I'll try it out and see how that works. Time for another revision.

As for the yard, I measured it out and I can fit 12 40' boxcars on each track. That's the biggest car's I'll be running. Is that not enough cars? Maybe by moving the roundhouse, I'll be able to have more room for a bigger yard.

I see why...

The issue is he'll be straying too far from the prototype and lose T55 in the process - a key focal point for this layout, more so than the roundhouse.

I do concur that the yard tracks should be lengthened a bit, something I did not consier previously.

Tower 55

Johnny, your correct about T 55 and I've had to do a few redesigns to keep it incorporated. But I may be able to shift/rotate the complete layout to place the roundhouse at the end as stated. I'll be playing with it as I'm sitting in my hotel. Not a lot of things to do here while I'm on travel for work.

Schematic

it might be useful to post (re-post?) a schematic of how the protoype is arranged so people understand what it is you are trying include and why/how moving things around affects the operation.

I am struggling with how the pieces fit together operationally since you have included parts of two railroads that don't necessarily interact with each other.

Carswell AFB

By the way, why haven't you included Bomber (mp 252 on the TP) in your plans, that served Carswell AFB.  They received airplane fuel by rail into the 1980's.  Probably a lot more during the 1940's.

If would have been Ft Worth Army Airfield before 1948.

Prototype

Ok the upper half of the plan shows Tower 55 at the crossroads. The union station is on the left and the roundhouse is below and left of there. The freight station which is not shown is to the left of this. The yard in the lower part is a yard that's to the right/east of T55. The KATY and T&P had a connection albeit on the east side of T55, but they shared the tracks going North of T55. Yes it's a hard area to model and I know I can't fit everything in. There are like 10 or more RR's that traveled thru here. I can't fit them all so I selected two that went thru towns where I have family. As for Ft Worth Army airfield, I haven't found any tracks in the maps I have that show a connection. It may have been a branch line off of the main T&P line. The main T&P line ran south of there. 

Hmmmm

That's interesting.  There is no way for a T&P passenger train to depart straightway on the T&P main route (New Orleans to El Paso).  The only way to get to the TP station is to head around the wye on the NE leg, then back around the leg into the station.  I can't help but think there are other tracks that Sanborn doesn't show.

On page 79 of Joe Collias' "The Texas & Pacific Railway" there is a picture of a T&P steamer making a straightaway move out of the T&P passenger station through the diamonds at T55, a move which would be impossible given your track diagram.  That would have to be in the 1950's or earlier.

According to Colias only one TP passenger train operated via the Paris  Branch, al the other passenger trains operated via Mineola.

Plus the yard you have a Sanborn map for was the "Ginnie" yard of the IGN (International Great Northern, the Missouri Pacific) or at least the portion south of the TP main.  The current Everman lead was the main line of IGN from Ft Worth to Houston.  On the 1928 Railroad Atlas it shows the IGN in that position, so I would have to assume that if it was the IGN before the 1940's and was the "IGN" after the 1940's then it would have been the IGN during the 1940's.

In addition there is a picture on pg 133 of a 2-10-4 departing Lancaster Yard  with a freight.  Lancaster is the main freight yard in Ft Worth which is west of the river, west of the psgr depot.  The freight was dieselized in the 1950's so that would put that picture in the 1940's or earlier, right in your time frame.

T&P

Dave,

  The T&P has a single line right next to the platform, it did not go into the stub ended tracks, only the KATY did that. So that is where the E/W to New Orleans ran.

The yard on the map above is east of T55.and was a second T&P yard. The Lancaster yard was west of the passenger station and roundhouse and is the one in my layout plan. The new freight warehouse was built around 1930/31. The post office was built later but I'm not sure yet of teh year. E Front street is now Lancaster. It was renamed around the early 30's. This map is actually from about 1929.

The Frisco was one of the other lines that ran N/S thru this point.

I'll have to see if I can find the book you mention. I've found a bunch of old pictures on a Ft Worth website and have been using them for reference along with the Sanborn maps I can find. Here's one of the passenger depot, roundhouse and yard area. That's Main St on the left. This picture was just before they built the new union station and freight warehouse we know of today as it has the old one here.So this picture is about 1929.

Hello, I won't claim to

Hello,

I won't claim to know much about track planning or layout, but have you considered putting the roundhouse at the end of the peninsula, and put the TA55 in the corner.  You could run the crossing tracks through the backdrop.  This would make the interchange a functioning part of the layout as opposed to just a scenic piece. I don't know if the radii would even work in this situation.

Leroy

Hey Leroy

Thanks, What you stated was also mentioned by someone else on the first page. I'm in the process right now of seeing if I can make it work. I've run into a few snags. One is it would compress everything on the North bound leg. Two is it would open more on the West bound leg. But from the maps I have, there is not much else on the West end of town during this time period. I'll keep looking though.

I do agree that it will probably make things look better and make better use of the T55 junction. Now if I can just make it work and make the rest of the outlying Ft Wort area fit in. I hate to say it, but I may drop the Stock Yards to make it work and have them be a connection "off the layout".

A update

Well last night I went and picked up a Atlas roundhouse kit as it most resembles the T&P roundhouse. After doing some layout and measuring, I found out that I've gained about 3" of space around the roundhouse. The program I've been using to draw out my layout (Xtrak CAD) did not have this roundhouse in their database so I was using a Walters one in it's place.

So I started doing some more design movement and it looks like I can move the roundhouse out of the corner and center it on the edge of the layout in the area between the passenger station and yard. This will allow me to leave it "open" for viewing inside. I'll post up the new plan once I get it drawn up.

I tried placing the roundhouse at the end of the peninsula but things around it just didn't fit in and look right. Too compressed on the upper half and too open on the lower. So for now, I'm going to focus on just moving the roundhouse to the edge as stated above.

Roundhouse in 1940

This may be a silly question, but was the roundhouse still downtown in 1940?

They were running 2-10-4's on freight trains,  I rather doubt those engines would have fit on that tiny turntable in the picture so they had to have another engine shop (hint: Lancaster yard).

The pictures of downtown/depot area I've seen from the late 1940's and 1950's look like the turntable might still be there, but the roundhouse is gone.  If the roundhouse is gone, that simplifies a lot of things.

Looks like you may have figured it out!

Looking forward to the update.  Since I'm in the same planning phase, I've been following this thread closely.

Good luck!

Dave, I'm not going to be

Dave, I'm not going to be running any of the 2-10-4's on the layout, or at least don't plan on it as my curves are at a 15" radius so I don't think they will work. Also I like the roundhouse and want to keep it in the plan, even if it was removed. I'm not going full prototypical, but more of a freelanced version rooted in the mid/late 1930's of Ft Worth. Hopefully that makes some sense.

Johnny, have you started a thread on your design?

yup!

I'm on revision 4 now and I'm pretty happy with what I came up with but I'm hoping people will nitpick it and point out any potential danger.  I'm still debating on whether or not to include a lower level connected via helix.  I'm going to design the lower level first then do a cost analysis to see if I can afford (money + time) to do the extra construction.

My trackplan is here: https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/trackplan-for-the-ppnl-need-some-feedback-12190580

You know, reading the other suggestions, you may be better off with the roundhouse on the peninsula.  Don't give up on the cattle yards just yet!  There's plenty of room where the roundhouse lies currently. Although not prototypical, bending the truth a bit never hurt anyone It's hard to note on my second version but there were two additional industries that I had to remove in order to gain the yard I wanted.  No worries: a modern-day team track took care of those customers!  Now, Washington Multimodal handles brick, plastic pellet transloading, a liquor distributor (inside joke) and a few others that "didn't make the cut".

See the original post for a

See the original post for a updated drawing and info.

Crusty, would you benefit

Crusty, would you benefit from flipping the angle on the RH yard throat on that yard on the bottom of the layout? Could it pinwheel around the swing turn that moves your mainline out to gain room for the turnback loop? The tracks look pretty short.

Like it!

Your latest revision of the roundhouse is pretty sweet!  I'm not sure if you'll still be able to maintain that "viewability" you were looking for but the flow of it all is significantly better.  I'm sure you've tried it but would turning the roundhouse 180 degrees offer you better access while allowing visitors to peek in?  Looking at the two tracks which access the roundhouse, it would appear these would benefit from the flip as well given their angles.

Great direction and I'm glad you're preserving the rest of the layout the way it is.

Yard.

I can probably flip that end of the yard but I'm not sure how much, if any I'd gain as the upper track would get longer but the bottom one would get shorter. I want to leave the reverse loop as it is as the plan is to replace it in the future with a helix to the next deck. My question is would changing that angle make the yard more productive? Would it just look better with it flipped? The arrival/departure track is about 4 feet long and I don't plan on running trains any longer than that, if that long. That's like 15 boxcars.

Johnny, the plan is to leave off the roundhouse walls that would be along the edge of the bench work. That way you can see in. I'm also going to leave the roof removable so you can see in as well. The track going in to/out of the roundhouse is 15" radius which is my minimum for the layout.