Hope you get some good advice

Ron

I wish I had some good advice, but I have the same "I like everything" disease.  At times I want to do a harbor scene, then an industrial scene, then just a laid-back lazy branch line.  Aghhhhhhhh.

Go find a prototype that inspires you

You've just discovered one of the reasons that so many people chose to model a specific prototype.  The mix of scenery, industry, traffic, etc. is already chosen for you.  Of course, the challenge is in selecting a suitable prototype.

Most of us (all of us, perhaps?) have suffered from gottahaveitall syndrome.  Personally, I've had all sorts of scales, eras, prototypes, gauges, etc. all at the same time.  It took some time to learn that I cannot do it all and do it all well, so I chose to focus on a smaller subject that I felt I could do to my own satisfaction.

A local model railroad club can help w/ gottohaveitall syndrome

I was the same as Ken R.  Collecting a whole bunch of different stuff in different era's and scales.  I finally settled on a proto-freelanced rr based on the NYC in western & southern PA circa early 1950s.  I recently though joined a local model railroad club that has both a 1970s-present day HO Layout, and a late 1940's O Scale layout, that includes a proto-freelanced eastern type coal based narrow gauge.  So by joining the club, I still can model three different types of modeling, but don't need to buy everything for each kind, because at the club there are other members who pitch in with the equipment.  It's a win-win situation.  So if you're fortunate enough to be in an area that has a local model railroad club, perhaps they model something you're interested in but is different than what you settled on for your own layout so you can model more than one thing without breaking the bank!

Ken L

Dive In!

I encountered the same problem... For years the three ingredients needed to do what I wanted (space, time and money) didn't line up for me so I waited and dreamed. When they did finally come together I found myself still stuck in the "waiting rut". It was comfortable... what I was used to. Then one day my wife said "are you ever going to do anything with your trains?". So, I took a plunge and just started doing something... It sounds funny to say but it was scary. But just like a cold pool of water, once you get in the water is just fine and you find yourself wondering why you didn't do it sooner!

As Ken said, Maybe you need an external force (prototype) to give you direction and set some boundaries. With no limits we tend to want everything... like a kid in a candy store (or a train nut in a hobby shop). I had picked my prototype a long time ago but before I did I was very confused as to which direction to take. The prototype helped me focus and led me to use my energies in a more productive way by bouncing me off the walls back to the center of the track when I strayed too far.

To sum it all up... Pick a waterhole and just dive in! You'll have a blast!

A couple of suggestions

 Two possible approaches:

1) Start smaller. Make a few test scenes, dioramas or layout fragments. Find out what you like and don't like with them. Write it down so you remember it.

 2) Try to decide what your overall goal or goals is/are. Why do you want to have a layout? What do you want to be able to do on your layout? What era? Why? What kind of place? Why? Keep asking yourself "what" and "why" instead of "how" until you have a reasonably clear idea of what your main goals are.

 Here is a link to a list of things a professional layout designer may ask you if you go to one asking for him to design you a track plan:  http://www.layoutvision.com/id13.html  - they may help you organize your thoughts about what you want to have on your layout.

 Smile,
 Stein

Just pick a plan

I say, just pick a plan a go for it!

In one of the Allen Keller videos, Allen is interviewing Tony Koester and they are talking about planning a model railroad. Tony warns about not getting too bogged down with details in the planning stage. He uses the "Cannon Analogy" and says, just point the darned thing and fire it!

You're going to get pretty close to what you want, and the "bang" is half of the fun!

My current layout started as a representation of Norfolk Southern's Port Road - big time heavy mainline railroading. As construction progressed, I realized that some things that looked good on paper, were less desirable when converted to plywood, cork roadbed and flex track. 

I took a month or so break and reassessed my options. After massaging the track plan a bit, I've lost the thing I didn't like but kept the basic "mainline" placement on my benchwork. Now I'm modeling a freelanced pike based on a local switching railroad close to my home. 

Would it have been easier if I had spent more time in the original design phase and delayed construction until I had worked out all of the problems associated with my track plan? Probably...

But it wouldn't have been nearly as much fun!

-George

Some specific issues

I just re-read your original post, and I am having a little trouble understanding your description of your benchwork.  However, I am going to suggest (somewhat against your no-pain rule) that you should not have built the benchwork without a track plan, and that you would be happier if you took it apart.  Unless there is a really good reason why you have to have that specific benchwork shape and size, you have automatically limited yourself and gained nothing by it.  10'x11' is a fairly small space for a full layout, so you'll want all the flexibility you can get.

I have three suggestions which you may find helpful.  All three start out the same way.  Figure out your givens and druthers.  What do you have to have, and what would you kind of like?  Do you want operation, or railfanning?  How many operators?  You need to come up with some realistic expectations, which will go a long way toward sorting out where you go next.

• Publish the exact dimensions of your existing benchwork here, along with some of your sketches and inspirations, and see what people suggest.
• Publish a drawing of the space you have to work with (including windows, doors, etc.), and ask for advice as above.
• Hold a contest, as Rob Teed did (and which I won, though I consider myself a rank amateur).  You might be surprised at the quality of the plans you receive.

What I would NOT do is just jump in blind.  While I like the idea of a chainsaw layout, and you can learn a lot about what you want by building something you're not 100% satisfied with, you have to consider the cost, in both time and material, of building a layout.  You also have to be aware of the fact that a poorly designed layout can put a damper on your enjoyment of the hobby.  Some compromises are okay, but too many or the wrong ones can be worse than doing nothing if you're not careful.  I have seen people give up in disgust after building their first (and only) 4x8 layout.  Do a little homework, learn from other people's mistakes, and you'll have a better chance of being happy.

Going "Z" gives a lot more flexibility for limited space

and so you can probably fit everything you want in. This example is a bit extreme, but shows what can be done.

Do not get stuck on just N scale plans.

Just a few suggestions.  You mention the publications you have looked through.  Did you look at other scale plans other than N scale?  My current plan was designed for On30, but I converted it to N scale, adjusted it to fit it an 11 'x 11' room.  At a 1:1 conversion from On30 to N scale the bench work would have been smaller.  I was able to lengthen the track plan in two locations to more fit the available space.  It is a walk around plan.  I am working on my long bridges at the moment.

Someone once said, "in every program is a great sub routine trying to break out."  The same is true about many model railroad track plans.  Each track plan has something really unique and great.  For example you might see a yard section of track plan A that you really like.  In track plan B is another industry section you like.  You might find 4 or 5 of these sections you really like.

So, make a scale drawing of your space.  Include doors and windows.  Then photo copy those sections of track plans you like.  Try to arrange them in the drawing of the space you have.  Perhaps one section will have to be mirrored to make it work.  Once you get those sections placed where they fit your available space you can draw in the additional tracks that will connect the sections together.  I have played like this with Ian Rice track plans in the past.

I will have to agree with Ken.  The track plan should have come first, then the bench work to support the plan.  You might find yourself hacking away at your bench work to make adjustments you didn't plan on.

Den

N scale 1900-1930 West Coast Mountain mining.

Just Pull the Trigger!

You basically know what you want.  You want it all just like me.  I wanted the big rock mountains, deep gorge bridge scene.  I want a yard or two.  I want industries and towns to justify my trains existence.  So pick a plan with the flow you like, chop it in to viewing windows and go for it!!  Space being a restriction, but usually not for N, you can probably get really close to what you want.

My second layout was designed for HO, and I liked what it had to offer so I just cut all dimensions in half. 

Skipping a few others, my current build is freelance all the way.  I like several road names for various reasons so I am wedging, key word, into a layout so I can run them all.  And now as bench work and wiring is basically complete and I am DC'ing around the layout as scenery goes in, I find I am making minor adjustments for the better.  I am the type that must put his hands on it to realize the full design.  So changes are acceptable for me.

"luke, you must follow your own destiny..."

Remember nothing is in stone...its just foam, cardboard and wood!!

hope that helps

fritz

Yep that's me With the "I

Yep that's me With the "I Want Everything" Disease

Thanks

See ya

Ron

Thanks to everyone for all

Thanks to everyone for all the support. Also for all of you taking the time to respond to my post. All had good points for me to consider and think on.  It is appreciated.  

I think I'll take the suggestion to just jump into the pool and see what splashes out. I can't be in any worse shape than I am now.

I did have a track plan I planned on using and built the benchwork to fit it.  But I changed my mind and decided it was to involved. I've included a picture of the discarded track plan at the end.  Since then I've been dithering around with other track plans.

I have taken another look at the White River and Northern. Here's a link to DK Smith site. It is also in the MRR track plan data base.

http://whiteriverandnorthern.net/

The staging tracks will be dropped and I'll just start with the main lines and then see what happens from there.

I've also included pictures of the train room, benchwork, and the WR&N track plan.

Any additional comments and suggestions are welcomed. 

Thanks

See ya

Switchman AKA: Ron

Here is a rough drawing of my train room.

Here is a rough outline of the benchwork. 

Here is a picture of the White River & Northern

This is the original track plan.

Dude!

You've got plenty O room. 

One thought:  consider either one of these plans, take and unravel it around the room with a lift out section or duck-under at the dooor.  From my experience, 3 foot reachs are a drag and building access within or behind is definitely NO worse than a duck-under entering the room.  Think of the depth of the layout.

Two layouts ago in the garage I had three foot benchwork depth and I hated it.  Now I have around the room at 54" to 62" track height and 20" depth max.  It is working well.  My room is 9.5' x 15.5' with a window at one end and a door at the other.  I use a removal section at the door when I am not running.  You could even come out into the room past the door so you wouldnt have to duck immediately as you come into the room...OR???  Also depends on how high you are going to make your benchwork.  I like mine close to eye level.

food for thought

fritz

Some thoughts for you

Based on the plans you've shown, it looks like you want the ability to have a continuous run, as well as some sort of reverse loop.  You also seem to favor an almost random assortment of spurs and sidings going every which way.

Variety is the spice of life, but sometimes things can be too spicy to enjoy!

First and foremost, let me say that it is your railroad, and you can and should do whatever you like.  With that said, there are things you might want to consider which could help in making this a more positive experience for you.  You seem to be assuming, and even expecting, that you will have an utter failure on your hands, and I feel strongly that is a poor approach.  The first time you hit a stumbling block, you will be tempted to give up, since there's no point in wasting time on a failure.  Why not do the very best you can, see what happens, and know that you will learn things which will be helpful for a future layout, while still enjoying this one?

While a model railroad is a personal thing, and of course some fads are just that, there is a lot that can be learned from trends and conventional wisdom.  Many of us have done the "every piece of track that will fit" thing, along with the 4x8 thing, the giant loop thing, and a variety of other "things."  If you chose to go down that road (and by all means, feel free to do so), at least consider what others have to say about it and make the decision with open eyes.  I will also say that, without exception, every time I have said "I know how to make it work, and those guys just don't know what they're talking about" I have lived to regret it.

As has been pointed out, 39" deep benchwork is problematic.  You will not be able to reach across it, and I suspect that you will get tired of having to pull the layout out and walk around it.  Depending on how high it is, I would not put any turnouts closer than 18"-24" from the front edge.  My benchwork is 50" high in most places, and ranges from 16"-18" deep.  It is comfortable for me to work on, at 6'3" tall, but I would not like it any higher or deeper.  I also do not like layouts that I have to walk around to access, because unless the throttle is completely wireless, sooner or later you're wrapped up in or at the limit of reach of the cord.  I prefer to stand inside the layout and so access every bit of it comfortably - not glued to a single spot, but not having to go around obstacles to reach.

On to track plans!  The big issue I see with the WR&N is that it requires some fancy expensive or custom track work - especially curved turnouts and crossings.  It looks great, but I suspect it may not be right for a first layout.  Your first plan actually looks easier to build, since it's made up of off the shelf components.  Also, nixing the staging yard on the WR&N is, I suspect, a mistake.  It seems to me that a lot of the operation on the layout is dependent on running several trains in a variety of routes, but without the staging yard you cannot easily have that variety of trains.

I have often suggested that a short line or branch line is the ideal theme for a small one or two man layout.  Large, busy main line operations are impressive and make magazine covers and articles, but they are difficult to pull off without a good bit of space and manpower (or a lot of automation, which is impressive to watch but boring to be a part of).  With a little care, it is possible to achieve a good mix of industrial, city, and rural operation in a space like yours.  For example, here's one track plan I cooked up in HO scale for a very similar space:

Would you be interested in seeing what others might come up with for suggested track plans?  Or, would you prefer to develop your own, based in part on advice and inspiration from others?

Here's an article

Ron,

Here's an article in May, 2011 MRH that you might find of value.

https://forum.mrhmag.com/magazine-feedback-was-ezines-891776

 I understand that the people

I understand that the people who say "just dive into it and start building" are intending to be helpful.

But in this case the main problem does not seem to be that the OP has spent too much time spent on analysis.

Instead, it seems more like that main problem has been that the OP is unwilling (or unable) to sit down and prioritize his goals, and then start dropping those goals that are the least important. Se he ends up with an overfilled project, and probably gets a bit overwhelmed.

I would still suggest that an evening with a sheet of paper and a pencil, listing and ranking desired features probably would be a sensible investment of time. 

But not my layout, my time, my money and my effort, so up to the OP what he wants to do.

Smile,
 Stein

It just sort of growed...

I seem to remember a track plan in one of the books where the author writes that he built his layout without a plan.  It was an around the the walls plan.  Now he was able to get away with it.  Most of us never will get away with it.

Ron, there is an easy way to see what will fit if the room is empty or just using the existing bench work.  We have discussed this in other forums when it has come up.  You need to get a full size plan made up that you can lay on top of your existing bench work or the floor.  Make it to whatever scale you are modeling in.  Leave it there for at least a week.  Keep looking at it over that week.  You can even place rolling stock on it.  The idea here is to see if it pleases YOU.  If it does, you can leave the track plan in place and build the track right on top of the track plan.  Do not be afraid to cut the track plan and reposition parts of it to fit better.

The first plan was the best plan.

Den

Great advice from everyone. I

Great advice from everyone. I will add my thoughts. What part (parts) of the hobby do you enjoy the most? The least? If you dont like wiring avoid complicated track plans. If you dont enjoy building structures avoid city scenes. Some of us dont like doing scenery. Some of us enjoy scratch building,some handlaid turnouts. The point is build what you enjoy,and try to limit the projects you dont. Also you might want to think that you are building a layout. It just so happens that a railroad may run through parts of it. 

In the end the decision is all yours. 

Not so much wiring

Complicated track plans really don't require disproportional extra wiring work if you use DCC.  DC and blocks, then yes.

Yep, there has been some

Yep, there has been some excellent advise and suggestions posted. I will just dive into the pool but I also believe you've got to have some sort of a plan as a starting point. This has been my major hurdle, changing my mind on these various starting points.

I like to watch trains run. I'm not a big operations guy. But I like to see various industrial scenes. For example, a Coal mine, quarry, steel mils, logging camps, small city and towns with associated business and industry. They can be like a diorama on the layout, for looks only, not necessarily operations.

Below is another starting point I kind of still like.

See ya

Switchman AKA:Ron

  for operations.   

I am back into the train

I am back into the train game after 20 yrs away. I am going to model HOn3. I have IAIAN  Rice's book on Shelf Railroads, and I highly reccommend it for anyone who has a small room option.Nothing could be easier to build from scratch. I am talking the ease of attaching metal wall brackets compared to building benchwork, and the use of removeable modules that can be worked on at the bench instead of underneath a table. This winter is going to be fun! Ken G.

First Chainsaw

I understand the wish to have it all, and constantly changing your mind about what you want to do. Part of the problem is that you are looking at this as a permanent layout. Since it appears to be your first layout, look at it as a Chainsaw. A Chainsaw layout is one you build to learn and develop the skills you will need to build a better layout at a later date. It's called a Chainsaw Layout because you expect to take a chainsaw to it at some point, to make room for that better layout.

By planning it as a Chainsaw, you take the pressure off yourself to have the trackplan perfect, and you get rid of the idea that the layout must be perfect. This is a testbed to see what works, and what doesn't. If it turns out to be a permanent layout, that's fine too.

Also understand that most layouts don't ever make it from planning,to building,without changes. Sometimes massive changes. If you get to the point of running trains, and decide that the track plan just isn't working for you, you'll at least know what part isn't working, so you can tear it out, and build something better.

Find or crate a plan that seems suitable, and start building it. Once you get trains running, you'll be glad you did.

Not putting it off in my case

Not putting it off in my case as such, but more like not realizing I could have a halfway decent layout if I just moved some stuff around.

I have a room of my own in our house (mostly to house my non-RR-related collection of military stuff) and always dreamed of putting a layout in there. But I have two tall bookcases and a tall safe that it never occured to me to move them to better utilize space. Everything else is in a group of dressers, which can be anywhere along the edges of a layout. My wife pointed it out one day and the lighbulb came on. It's a 11X10 room and one wall has a closet all along that side, the door is in the corner against said closet. So I'll be moving the two tall book cases to the opposite side of that doorway and the safe up against the corner next to the close opening. That'll open up about 3/4 of the room. My plan is going along one wall about 9 feet long by about 2+ feet (I have to be able to reach the window sill), then along the wall to a 90-degree angle as deep as I want, up to about 4 feet or so as the book cases will be at another right angle to avoid. So I can probably have about a 4X10 with branch off, like a "L" with a very thick base. It's much more than I ever thought I'd have.

I don't suffer from 'can't decide' fever at all. I have had a specific concept in my head for over 20 years and will do it in On30. Knowing the layout idea isn't ready, I decided to focus on rolling stock and I'm almost done with all the cars and locomotives I'll need. Just 3 wood kits to go and I'm done there. I'm now starting to look for structures and have bought some kits already.

My problem is a track plan. I want a layout that will offer some good operating but nothing too ridiculous. Point to point is probably the best thing to do but I must admit I'd like a loop in there somewhere so I could just run a train and let it go and watch it if I really wanted to. But I don't want a simple loop as I want a RR that looks like it's going somewhere, not in circles...

I built a layout in HO in my teens and it was track everywhere and I never did anything with it. I was sanity in my track plan. It's representing a NG railroad in the South during WW2.

But the track plan is what's keeping me from going forward right now. I've gone through so many other plans but nothing pops out at me other than a few elements...

layout design

Guy's I'm in the same boat. I built the benchwork awhile back. It has various junk on it . Last year I joined a HO Free-mo club. So now I finally have a direction. My layout is 1 foot wide on one wall and 2 foot wide on the other wall. So now I have a standard to start with ,when the weather warms up .It's in a 14 x 24 shed, It's a balmy 32. Can't win can I.  - Dennis

I Freelance-Therefore I am.