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New Layout Design - Brooklyn Terminal RR - Looking for feedback
Fri, 2012-05-18 09:09 — johnd
Hi All,
Attached is a draft plan for my new shelf layout which is a freelanced road based on the Brooklyn terminal railroads and a car float operation in the 1980's.
I would appreciate any feedback and suggestions based on this initial draft plan.
As I mentioned it's based loosely on the Bush Terminal RR, NY Dock Rwy, etc so it's got an industrial, grimy kinda feel with street running down 1st Ave. Operations wise, cars will come and go via the car float, there isn't any interchange with other roads on the terminal side. Loads will include inbound boxcars, lumber, plastic pellets in hoppers, gons with pipe, tank cars and solid waste flats.
Thanks in advance,
John
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My kind of layout...
Looks good so far. One thing I would advise from experience though, when incorporating a car float into a layout design if is critical to have the same amount of storage next to the float as what can be fit into the float itself.
When unloading a car float, you need somewhere to hold the equipment waiting to be loaded on.
I see some tracks next to the float dock, and if this is the same amount of space as what can be fit onto the float, it will work well, otherwise it creates a real bottleneck that really isn't much fun to switch.
Love the chosen
Love the chosen subject.
You need more yard space, so your movements get to be yard to float, float to yard, yard to industries, industries to yard.
And as a signature scene it would look lovely to do the iconic track passing through a "tunnel" under the corner of a building on the corner of 41st street and 2nd Avenue, as seen e.g. in the second picture on the right in this web page: http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page87/index.html
Smile,
Stein
Good As Is
This looks really good as is so I'd caution you against trying to fix something that isn't broken. In other words, don't over analyze something that turned out very well with the first draft.
Although I wouldn't change the design, when construction starts I'd pay careful attention to the flow of the track through the turnouts on the lower portion of the plan below 50th street. Given the tight geometry, you might want to use curved turnouts. Be careful there also as some commercial curved turnouts are fine, others are out of gauge. If you know how to make your own this would be the place to do it. Related to that would be Tim's comment about the yard capacity which is somewhat a related to topic to the track geometry on the lower end.
Lance
Floatin' the spots
Looking groovy.
At first I thought your space for carfloat and carfloat yard was horribly small.
Then I clicked on the link to the actual file and saw you did plan a larger space.
(Just a word to those viewers who looked only at the plan posted on the thread).
I'd actually make the carfloat yard tracks longer.
I totally agree with all above who say to make sure you have enough space for the carfloat cars.
I'd start the carfloat yard where the team track turnout is, and you could have the team track come off the bottom-right of the runaround.
Double-plus what Lance said: you want that track sooper smooth coming off the float and into the runaround, and handlaid or manufactured curved turnouts will help.
This layout will be no fun if you have stutters or derailments every time you use the float.
Which will be a lot ;)
You also might want to consider angling the track so it's slightly bottom-left to top-right so it's not parallel and flush with fascia. Even a slight angle will ease the curve to the float and eliminate the grid.
Will it make the buildings a little harder to build/install? Sure. But it will be more aesthetically pleasing and create more of a "slice of life" feel rather than a diorama of tetris buildings and streets.
(though there are plenty of fab layouts that do parallel the fascia).
Food for thought.
--M.C. Fujiwara
Yardgoat Layout Design
My YouTube Channel (How-To's, Layout progress videos)
Silicon Valley Free-moN
General rule with a yard
General rule with any yard - it's needs to be 2x the cars you expect if it's not remain fluid and useful.
In the case of a car float, you not only have the cars coming, but you also have the cars going - you need room for both.
So you need 2x the car capacity of the car float - at least. If you really want a fluid yard that's not a total headache to work, then 3x the capacity of the car float for the adjacent yard is even better.
Joe Fugate
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine
Nice plan and nice timing!
Happy to send samples of our brand new "Industrial Avenue" Realistic Street track available whenever you need 'em.
Andy
Lance wrote: This looks
It is indeed a good track plan as is, but the track plan seems a little too sparse to give me the look and feel of e.g. Bush Terminal: http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/bt.html
The two key look and feel elements I miss are the dense yard tracks, and parallel tracks curving away into an alley between C-shaped industrial loft buildings, with loading docks on both sides of the narrow alley (maybe modeled in a cut-away fashion for access, so we only see the loading dock on the fascia side of the C-shaped building):
Smile,
Stein
Missing something...
Dear John,
As a freelance plan I like it.
However, as a specifically NYC-inspired "Rail-Marine" plan, (caution: personal opinion follows), I'm not sure it "forfils the operational purpose" IMHO
To explain:
Are you trying to focus on
A - The operation of loading/classifying/reloading the carfloats
B - the street switching which is based out of the floatbridge yard in between carfloat unloading/loading cycles
C - both?
A more-than-cursory look at most of the NYC "pocket rail-marine terminals" reveals a very definite delineation between A and B RR operations (and trackage) above. The common "interchange" is the carfloat yard.
Carfloat <> carfloat yard <> local (street switching) industries
where
Carfloat<>carfloat yard
and
carfloat yard <> "the streets"
is the usual job break-up.
My concern is, where's the carfloat yard?
(Seperate issue, where's the enginehouse?
BT/NYCH Bush terminal, NYD Fulton terminal, and most others IIRC, had enginehouses to take care and protect the "captive" switchers)
Look at NYCH/NYNJ ex-Bush Terminal yard on 1st, down around 59th St. it has
- a dedicated "yard lead" to the float bridges
- which heads into the body of the dbl-ended "diamond shaped" yard
- and a seperate "mainline exit" heading both Nth (to the 39th St SBK interchange and Davidson Pipe Co) and Sth (to the Bush Army terminal, industries, and interchange with the LIRR IIRC?)
A crew can quite happily and safely
- unload a carfloat without unduly intruding into the "yard trackage"
- pull the complete "inbound rake of cars" into the yard
- and start classifying them to head either Nth or South
while another crew can leave or enter the yard from the mainline...
(either to/from 39th St, or to/from Bush Army Terminal).
In super simple terms, the sth end of the yard forms a "Y shape",
one "tine" is the street-run to Bush Army terminal,
the other is the carfloat lead,
and the yard proper is the "stick" ;-)
The 2 tracks between your "Bush Terminal Warehouse" _could_ act as drill/classification tracks. However, as already stated, there's arguably not enough capacity to handle both "one inbound" and "one outbound" train simultaneously. (In HO, your 2x presumed "drill tracks" are something less than 3' or 36" from end to "clearance point", which = approx 5x 40' cars. Assuming that the resulting 10 - 11 cars are all destined for the same carfloat, NB that a Walthers 3-track NYC-style float built to "full kit length" of over 3' can eat 16-17x 40' cars).
Now, remembering that Bush Terminal/NYCH is one of the bigger terminals, let's consider something smaller. I personally have a soft spot for the NYD Fulton Terminal, In this case, a pair of floatbridges were seperated by a 4-track "pier" yard. A close look at the terminal turnout arrangement implies that this "4-track yard" is actually 2x2 track yards, on a common pier/dock structure. Whether each yard's "pair of track" were considered by crews to be 1x "Inbound" and 1x "outbound" track
(unlikely, none of the 4 tracks have enough capacity to hold an entire carfloat worth of cars "in the clear" on it's own),
or whether the "pair of tracks" were both used as "drill tracks"
(shades of a proto Inglenook, where the 2x "yard tracks" are the short spurs, and the carfloat effectively forms the "long spur"??? ;-) ).
the key elements still remain:
- a long enough "lead" such that a float can be loaded/unloaded without impinging on other yard operations,
or proceeding _too_far_ beyond the "yard limits" of the terminal
(may be additionally/more-forcefully limited if said "beyond the terminal propertiy" trackage crosses/enters on public roadways)
- enough yard trackage to allow shuffling of cars both On and Off the carfloat
(shuffling for balance, loading sequence, and to hold "in transit" cars,
assuming you don't switch _every_ industry that needs service _every_ time you head out of the yards and "into the streets")
- and the floatbridge/carfloat itself.
As a switching layout, it has a lot going for it.
Just some tweaking to align more closely/functionally with the desired "NYC Rail-Marine" inspiration IMHO...
Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr
PS the curved spur into "IESI" is _begging_ IMHO for a "curves left to turn right" spur, a la NYCH in 1st Ave...
http://g.co/maps/zfhg6
Just to add to what Klyzr
Just to add to what Klyzr suggested - here is a link to a web page which shows quite a bit of information about the New York Dock (NYD) Fulton Terminal: http://www.trainweb.org/bedt/indloco/nyd.html
Here is a quick sketch of a possible small float yard ala Fulton in the right hand corner of your layout (turnouts are Peco code 75 right hand curved):
Smile,
Stein
Feedback
i will not discuss the specific details of the plan as you need to decide what your given's & druther's are, and whether or not this plan meets them.
However, may I suggest that the tracks, roads and building all being parallel to the walls would be something that I would want to avoid as it all looks a bit sterile. YMMV.
Ashley
Building the North Shore Line circa 1959
http://no-two-alike.blogspot.co.uk/