You get what you pay for?

I was looking at the results of a professional rapid prototype production over the weekend and I'd say it was a little less than satisfactory compared to what you can achieve with resin casting or certainly injection molding.  This would be a multi-thousand dollar machine.  You can decide for yourself if this $500 device is likely to be able to do better.

The Day is Coming

Industrial machinery is engineered and priced to perform to higher reliability, reproducibility, up-time, and other important commercial factors than is consumer equipment. Still, with that said, the day of do-it-yourself 3D printers suitable for the scales we work in isn't here... yet.

But it is coming fast! The advancements and price reduction of just the past 2 years shows it is coming. Who knows, a few short years from now you may tell Siri what you want and your iPhone will direct the $199 made in [insert low cost labor country of choice] printer to make etched brass precision plastic items.

The machine in the OP uses a .35mm nozzle. Imagine what will be possible when they have .035mm nozzles.

The end of manufacturing.

I often see 3D printing touted in the modeling world as a panacea, the be all end all for modelers.  And while at the moment they aren't, the quality of items printed in 3D with services such as Shapeways, is well, awful, I suspect in time this will improve.

I tend to look at 3D printing from a wider perspective, and frankly, if is frightening.  Compare a 3D printer to the golden goose.  Once there is a golden goose, gold has no value.  The same thing is true with a machine that can be used to simply create a product we want.  The implications for all of manufacturing is huge.  I suspect eliminating manufacturers from the product making process could be looked at as no big deal, similar to removing record companies from the music business.  However, doing so in a small industry such as model railroading will have the result of losing companies with the resources to bring the big products to market, as a lot of the time, its the smaller products that allow them to do so, and its the smaller products that 3D printing will replace.

Shapeways, I believe, is a glimpse of how 3D printing will impact the hobby.  Instead of manufactures, we will use Shapeways to acquire what we want, using designs produced by other modelers.  Its a brilliant business model, but one that will result in only a couple producers making everything and anything we want.

I have no idea how it will all play out, but in my opinion, I see 3D printing as the biggest disruptive technology to come along since the beginning of the industrial revolution.

One door closes, a new door opens

But doesn't this open the door for them to create less expensive products in their basement and sell them to those that don't understand or have the inclination to develop their own or buy their own 3D printer? What about simply having engineers that will do custom development of CAD drawings for people who purchase those and send them off to someone like Shapeways? Savvy modellers with CAD experience and a lot of patience may build all their own stuff, but that still will take a lot of time.

And as for putting the smaller guys out of business, I would suggest it could actually open the door for MORE small guys to develop very specialized items and do their own printing or contract to Shapeways to do the printing for them. I guess I'm a firm believer that people's ingenuity will always find ways to make the best of a given situation. The only doom and gloom is for those who don't want to or refuse to change.

I sort of agree, Tim

And with your clout as both a manufacturer and an outstanding modeler, I take your warning seriously.

That said, I view the disruptiveness of RPP (Rapid Prototype Printing) as the thing we need to overcome staid business practices in the "larger manufacturers."  Case in point - N scale has no properly tooled SW1500, a mainstay on nearly every railroad in the U.S. since the early 1970's.  HO has a ton of choices, and most of them have had  improved tooling and thus improved prototype fidelity over the years.  But not one correctly tooled in N scale.

So if the big boys (Atlas, Athearn, Walthers) won't do, and the medium sized ones (Intermountain, FVM, etc) won't do it,and someone in shapeways will (or MAr4Designs, et al), then I'm buying.  And that fact alone might just force the big companies to, oh I don't know, expand their product lines, recognize N scale for the robust modeling group it is, and sell us what we are willing to buy.

Disruptive - you bet, and if it gets me a modern , diesel modeler's staple like the SW1500, I'm ok with that.

Already there

But In solid nickel silver to match NS rail, accuracy and resolution better than 0.001", no jagged curves where it shows, and at a fair price.

Of course this is a carefully designed 21st Century engineering solution of applying the right High Technology to the problem of 3D printing not being ready for this yet. But hey, it works like a dream now, and we churn out frogs like this in 10 sizes, (4-10) four rail codes 40-83), 3  scales (HO, N, Z) and a growing range of 5 types so far (bent rail, manganese, self-guarding, paved street/yards and trolley).

Replicators are not on the drawing board yet

Tim, I can see your line of reasoning, and some of it may be very valid.  It should, however, be pointed out that personal printers did not destroy publishing, and mail order did not destroy shopping, so it may be premature to infer that 3-D printers will bring about the end of manufacturing.  Some things are simply too complicated to hope to produce on a printer, and there will be the time required and a source of data files, raw material, etc., which will make it a specialty, and many will find it easier to obtain a finished product elsewhere rather than waiting for their machine at home to crank it out.

A lot of Star Trek technology is sort of starting to appear, but it never works quite as well or as simply as it does on TV.  There's more to producing a model than talking into a control panel and saying "make me a locomotive."  I'm pretty sure replicators will remain science fiction for a while yet.

Married to the old ways...

You can say all you want about some things being 'too difficult' for something new like this to reproduce.  And yet, I see it coming, and coming VERY soon!

Look at how the laser cutters have carved up the model building industry - if you market a "craftsman" kit now, it had better include lasercut sides, windows and trim!!!

It's only a matter of time.  And not decades, maybe a DECADE!

Not so good for small scales

1mm resolution in the horizontal plane will not really cut it for fine detailed parts in the smaller scales.

I'm Holding Out

Yea!

I'm holding out for a $500.00 Holi-Deck. Then I can run a simulated Ho scale railroad in a 500 X 500 foot layout room with all my favorite engines. I will never again be constrained by time, budget, era, or poor design. The computer will fix all my problems. I can then float around on my automated couch until I bump into Wall-E.

No more building kits. wiring the tracks, using my skills to create scenes. Or creating cool locomotives. Mmmmm! On second thought maybe the challenges are where the real fun is.

Regards,

John

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The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree, is by accident. That's where we come in;
we're computer professionals. We cause accidents. Nathaniel Borenstein

3D nickel silver printer

That's amazing. I thought they could only do plastic?

Bernd

Just making a 3d model from layers. . .

but by a different non-automated process. But the end result is much the same.

Note, You call it PCB (printed circuit board) that some of you like to use for ties don't you? But it isn't printed either..

...

1 mm resolution today, tomorrow...0.1?  0.01?

Seriously, this conversation reminds me of the debates over plastics as legitimate materials for construction in the 50's and 60's.  All I heard growing up was my dad telling me how bad plastics and plastic toys were.  And I looked at him with one eye cocked and said to myself, "Seriously?"

Just like injection plastic took over the arena from diecast metals, so will 3-d prototyping take the cake from injection plastic.  It's not a matter of if, but when - and this when is coming quick, very quick!  Machines now down to $500??? 

Take a good hard look at where the laser cutters are cutting up the craftsman kit world.  Everything now is lasercut, you can't get away from it any more.  Just wait...

Any "serious" modeler of 2020 will have at least a laser cutter in their basement.  2030, I would also realistically expect a 3-D prototype machine.  As the prominence of these machines increases, I expect the "worth" of major Master Model Railroading badges to plummet.  Honestly, though, when the laser goes through and goes as far pre-drilling the holes for you, it's truly getting to be "shake the boxcraftsmanship."  And I do believe this is a different thing, not necessarily good or bad.

The upside of 3D printing

I see two things happening in 3D printing. One we will end up with fairly cheep 3D printers siting on our benches. The res may not be great but for a lot of stuff it will work. Heck even if I could just built the basic building and add trim to it, that would save a lot of time vs building a shell from flat plastic. So even low res 3D printers will have there uses.

On the "pro" side I see companies that have faster, cheaper to use and more dependable machines using them to knock out  limited interest items. Much like lasers cut kits allow my to buy not just a C&O station building the a model of the exact building located in the prototype spot I am modeling.  This is a HUGE benefit to us in the hobby and frankly is part of the reason prototype modeling is taking off. Years ago you would have had to scratch build everything you needed to model a true prototype.

Still I think it will be a long time before you see mass produce items being replaced by 3D the cost is just going to be to high for a while. It is like the "print on demand" book industry. You can get them but the cost a LOT more then to buy a mass printed book.  So things like track and such will be made the way it currently is for a while.  That being said detail parts and companies like Grant Line and others will have to watch out as low volume but large selection will tend to favor 3D printing.

Now here is a thought for you. Take a company that works out a form of module structure for powering steam locomotive. Perhaps the frame is 3D printed with wheels and bearings added to it, and a gear box/ motor that works on several options. Now I can produce many wheel bases, with various size wheels.  Add in the 3D printed boiler and all of a sudden you have the abilities to produce almost ANY engine you can think of from a very limited supply of parts that are not 3D printed.  IN that case I think that the Brass industries better watch it's tail feathers.

Humm, maybe I should have kept this idea to myself? Or patented it? 

Doug Meyer

South Lyon Mi.

Etching

I took a closer look at those turnout frogs. I see that they are etched and not cast like I had first thought. I can see using a 3D printer to make a master for a mold to cast them. What you basically did was use a photo etch method. That leaves the customer to assemble them with solder I presume? Still missing the bolts and washers on the sides that hold it all together.

Bernd

Know it's Place...

I wouldn't look to this technology for frames, I'd assume those would be made via CNC routing on a metal working machine.

As for your Boiler idea, take a look over at the Model Shapeways website. People are already doing it...  It's expensive, but really, not much worse than if you had built the shell form scratch.  This is now, add another five years and knock off a couple decimal places to the resolution...

MMR, 3D printing, and the future

I don't know about that.  I'll start off by saying that I don't put a lot of value on that title anyway - it's as much about jumping through hoops and spending time attending conventions as it is about building models.  But here's the thing: I could draw up a set of plans and have an entire model printed on a 3D machine, and then draw up another set of plans for decal artwork and have them printed, put everything together more easily than building an Athearn kit, and it would qualify as "scratch built" according to the NMRA.  The only real skill I see there is in the drafting, and that's hardly what most of us think about when we talk about modeling ability.

So the value of a MMR certification doesn't have very far to drop in my opinion.  I know others will disagree, but that's okay too.  Opinions are a lot like certain body parts...

With that said, I also see a positive side to things.  Back in the '50s, when every part (often including wheels, gears, and even motors) had to be made at home, even the most basic models were (deservedly) praised, because that's all there was.  These days, I can walk into the hobby shop and buy a $40 freight car or $200 locomotive that would have won every contest ever held for the better part of four decades.  The level of detail and modeling has gone up as a result, and the top award winners are reaching new heights.  I don't see any reason to think that will change.  New materials and tools will make new and better models possible, and I think we'll all benefit from that.

Our frogs have sides as well

But painting helps close the loop

Very interesting

Andy. Didn't know you were a manufacturer of track parts. Will have to peruse your sight. I'm thinking of hand laying some track for a model diorama. Will have to keep your store in mind.

So from the pictures I see you have a syringe. Does that mean you need to glue the parts together? You say in your home page that these are made from manganese. Is it alloyed with any other metals? Apparently it can not be soldered? Correct? 

Bernd

One thing not mentioned here is the material required ...

One of the things not mentioned in this discussion is the cost of the material to produce parts.  We all know ink jet ink is outrageous for the cost of 1 fluid ounce.  We know that is where the printer companies make their real money.  So, what now comes to mind is the cost of the material used in the 3D printer.  What is that going to cost the average home modeler?  The printer might be cheap, but.....

Den

$500 for what is, at the moment, vaporware?

Call me ultra conservative but I've seen too many products, hardware and software, promised but for one reason or another never delivered.  Anything I've ever been placed on a "reserve list" for has been with the understanding that I would not be charged until something actually shipped.  And these have always been from established companies that had delivered other products over a reasonable period of time.  Unless you're in an incredible hurry I'd wait until they actually have product on hand.

On the plus side, doing a Google search on "solidoodle review" yields some interesting results.

The "gotcha" may appear in the materials...

I would not be the least bit surprised to see the future of 3D printing mimic the history of computer printing in general; a trend toward printers with remarkable capabilities that sell for possibly less than what they cost to produce but which use proprietary cartridges of raw materials that only fit that manufacturer's printer.  I feel the pain of that every time I go to the printer cartridge store for my HP fix...

Oh, and I wouldn't be surprised either if the materials aren't "tweaked" in some way so that your warranty isn't voided (or your machine damaged) if you try to use a 3rd party substitute (or have a cartridge refilled, assuming that can be done).  Lawyers and licensing, lawyers and licensing...

3D printer

Soildoodle sells the material needed. Look for yourself here:  http://store.solidoodle.com/index.php?route=product%2Fproduct&product_id=56 Pretty expensive plastic I think.

Now lets take a closer look at these table top machines. They are nothing more than your basic x,y,z machine which can run a router, plasma cutter, or laser cutter.  The only difference is a longer "Z" axis travel on the printing machine. Another way to look at this machine is it's nothing more than a CNC milling machine with a different head on it. Instead of removing material it adds material to make a part. 

Guys have been building their own table top routers, engravers, laser cutters for several years now. Here's the forum that it's on and you can waste some time looking at the pictures of their builds and material lists if so inclined. Some of these guys have built tables up to 10' X 20' or so. Just think you could print a whole layout on that size table.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cnc_router_table_machines/

Be careful. You may pick up another hobby after seeing what these guys have put together. I've seen CNC machines built to carve Styrofoam for model airplanes and boats. CNCed mountain for your layout anybody?

Bernd

The "gotcha" may appear in the materials...

Speaking of inkjet consumables hopefully is on point.

Quite a few of those kind of printers can be fitted with a CIS system (contentious  ink supply) that is way  (WAY) less expensive that of store bought (even refilled) cartridges.

We can only hope that if there's enough interest (sales) in 3d medium that there will be aftermarket suppliers cropping up.

One would think that even though the resolution of a current affordable 3d printer may not be good enough to produce a "finished" model (or part thereof), I would tend to think being able to make a rough "casting", of something that does not exist, and then finishing said part (just like we do now) with files and sandpaper, is a very nice advancement.