Any one? no comments? good or

Any one? no comments? good or bad?

If the 12" grid equals 160 feet then,

I think you are attempting to fit too much into your 160 scale feet you have for every real foot along your layout.  How many N gauge cars fit in twelve length of track?  How many cars is your name passenger train going to have?  How many actual feet will that train be?

I am building a HO layout where the actual length of the area if 1900' long and 120' wide.  I only have 10' of shelf instead of the 21.839 required to model at true size.  So I have to immediately conduct a compression of at least 2 to 1 to fit the available space.  I am modeling the year 1895, so in a yard area the railroad had at least one run around track (I find that run arounds are frowned on in current railroading.)  I have reduced the six car length to 3 cars to reflect the reality of the situation.  I have noted from the tone of your previous posting that you seem not to have allowed these types of considerations to enter your planning realm.

Since you have rejected these considerations from your effort, I can not make any comment simply because I find these type discussions are too important to the layout design process.  In my planning, I know that instead of being capable of handling 40+ 34 foot long cars, I will be able to only have 20 of these size cars in the yard.  I have chosen to eliminate several buildings from the layout, most ones not served by the railroad any way, but I will have those building at 75% of their size. 

I am not trying to pan you, but you have asked for comments and this is how I do my planning effort.

Thanks.

Ok, let me see if I can answer your questions. Maybe I am trying to fit too much, not sure.

I was thinking of 5 passenger cars. That plus the loco will make it 3 feet long. Is that too much? Would 4 cars be better at 2.5'? Or should I drop it to 3 and make it 2 feet?

Freight trains will be similar at 2.5 feet max. Mostly will be 40' refrigerated box cars for the Swift plant along with 40' cattle cars. Other cars will be small tankers for the oil companies. That will be the main freight. I'll have some other 40' box cars for the other industries. 

Should I maybe rearrange the layout to provide more running room between towns? Or drop a town?

My last resort thinking was to just model Fort Worth and have the other towns as "ghost towns" off the layout.

I'm new to all of this and just trying to figure things out before I actually start building. I had originally built a 4' X 8' layout and had put way too much in it which made it no fun to operate. So I want to try and not make that mistake this go round.

I'm sorry if I may have sounded condescending or unopen to suggestions. On the contrary. I guess it stems from my last posting when I was developing the layout and I basically got reamed because I was not following the prototype exactly in the manner of how and where it ran. That may be what has made me a bit hardened and posted the way I did.

Yard too short

I think the on the upper side is too short to be useful on a layout this size. I think you should run some longer freight trains (20 freight cars makes a nice looking train in N scale)

Do you really need two turntables and two roundhouses?  The  roundhouse in the upper left corner could be an impressive scene, but do you really need one that big?

I the layout meant to be operated point to point?  Only continuous run connection is through passenger terminal.

Thanks Part 2

Your questions are the correct ones and you are the only person that can answer them.  When your 3, 2.5, 2 car passenger train runs around the layout how do you see it in your mind and operating desires?  Do you see it snaking through the tracks in Ft. Worth, passing the Union Passenger Terminal, Tower 55, industries,lots of freight yards, roundhouses and then big industry.  Heck, that can be half of your available mainline distance, then do you see it moving across the cattle country, hill country, small farm towns?  How real feet of mainline are you willing to allocate to that type of scenery?  Remember you get 160 scale feet per real foot of track you commit here.

It's your railroad, what are you going to commit to?

In my mind this is the real fun of model railroading as you get serious about planning your world.  I would love to model the entire 300 miles of the Colorado Midland, but I am trying to develop in the 1900 feet of a yard that actually belongs to the Union Pacific, Denver & Gulf that was switched by the CM for an hundred bucks a month.

Remember most of memories were more that 160 feet long.

My thoughts

So far it's looking pretty cool. My suggestions.

1. Most of the industries should be located off of a siding especially the heavy ones. This allows you to still run looper train and work the industry.
2. Why such tiny trains? In N scale you've got the room for longer trains, go bigger. The longer trains look great snaking through the scenery. Short trains are OK for locals, but even they should be longer than 3 feet.
3. Bigger yard for bigger trains.
4. Lose the big roundhouse, maybe use the space to lengthen your passenger station.
5. Make sure your all of your sidings and yard tracks will fit at least a train length. Longer sidings is better, especially if you have to work the industries on them.

Some Ideas

If it were me,  I would extend the body of the yard tracks and find a place to put a drill track for the yard switcher to work from.  Otherwise the yard job will always be clogging the main line.  I would also have a smaller engine facility and only one.  Not sure of the need for 2 roundhouses.  Make the track more flowing, not parallell with the edge of the layout so much,  and not such harsh straight lines at the front of the layout.  Finally "less is more"  George Orwell.  We tend to want to place to much track on our layouts that they become crowded.

Design

I am having a hard time with the concept because I am familiar with the prototype, and the model doesn't operate like or capture the feel of either prototype.

There seem to be a whole lot of things going on but not enough of any one thing to clearly define either of the railroads or any of the operations. 

You have a big passenger terminal but no real place to run passenger trains, plus they are all stub ended.

You have a big engine terminal, but almost no yard or through freight operation to require that big of a facility. 

You have lots of industries but no real yard to support them and locals switching industries will block the passenger trains and through freights.

I would pick one railroad to emphasize and make the other basically a switching line. 

For example I would make the TP a loop around the room with a staging yard under the FW stockyards and put the passenger terminal as double ended tracks.  The TP freight options would be a through freight that would set out a block at Odessa, with a switch engine at Odessa.  Every through freight and every passenger train would swap engines at Ft Worth.    The MKT would serve the stockyards and a interchange with the TP at T55 (served by block swapping with a TP freight) minimizing the need for a TP yard.  If you added an MKT staging track behind Odessa, you could run an MKT passenger train into the Union Station, turn the power and run it back out to staging.

Dave H.

A lot to take in here. Thanks.

Thanks everyone, this is what I was looking for. I'll sit back and digest it all. I really appreciate it.

A couple of questions.

What would be an idea length of train to run? 2', 3', 4'? How much "open" space would look good for that size train? How long of a yard track? Remember, this is set during the 30's/40's headed with a steam loco or a  F3 A/B or F7 A/B diesel.

Would I be better served with a point to point? Or a different layout design? I originally started with a S shape Isle. I've also looked at a reverse S shape isle. I've also toyed with a U shape isle as well. 

I have maps of the towns from around 1935 - 1945. The passenger station in Fort Worth at that time was stub ended at the station and actually headed out north from the station. There was only one thru track running east/west. That's why I said a little freelance. 

The reason for two turntables is that is what the prototype had. A T&P 360 roundhouse in Fort Worth and a MKT in Wichita Falls. Is it a bit of overkill for this size layout?

Thanks for all of the input.

One last thought. Would I be better off looking at a double level layout? One for the T&P and one for the KATY? I still have my helix from my old layout.

Train size

The 2.5ft long trains you first proposed would be about the max you could run on a island type layout (4x8 or a little smaller)

For this size of layout a freight train of about 20 cars would look good.  Sidings 7ft-8ft long should be adequate. 

The yard as proposed has about 3ft of useable space on each track.  6ft or a little more would be better if your longest train is 20 freight cars.

The way most of the spurs curve off the main seems arbitrary. While not unusual for spurs to curve, I think you should have more of the spurs parallel to the main.  Roads and property lines and buildings in the vicinity of railroads tend to run parallel and perpendicular to the tracks. Even when spurs curve off the main they usually fit into the grid. Consider the road system in your design.  Consider the "negative spaces" that is spaces between the industries and buildings. Avoid creating a lot of little odd shaped spaces, although a few are acceptable. 

curved Spurs...

If you look at the old Tucson Industrial Track, You'll see near every single spur track off of it being a curve back into the customer's property...

Shellback, I think you have a good start - it looks fun.  You may need to add a mainline to your industrial line, just to give yourself a little more running room [i.e. passenger/inbound/outbound freight,] with the stipulation that these incoming trains hit the yard before they hit industry and vice versa.

Yes, you'll need a bigger yard...

I see no reason to nix the engine facilities in either location.  You do need a larger yard, though - and perhaps a ready area [a yard for ready locomotives] between your large turntable and your yard.  That design goes off towards incorporating engine servicing facilities into your plan - there's a couple good books on the subject that ma help you better understand what your prototype had in place.

Thanks for the inputs, keep them coming

You guys are giving me a lot of food for thought and I appreciate it. You also got me to thinking some.

What if I go double decker? Go with a U shaped layout with a helix on one end or both ends. Have the lower deck 2' wide and run the T&P on the lower. I could put the Fort Worth T&P on one 16' side and have some running room around the end and put Midland/Odessa on the other 16' side.

Then I could have a 1' upper deck with the KATY. again having the stockyards and such on the 16' side above the T&P yards and platform and run around the end to Wichita Falls on the other 16' side above Midland/Odessa.

That would give me the longer running area between towns and a longer yard. It would also move one engine facilities on the lower deck on the left and the second one on the upper deck on the right.

I could do a helix on each end or just one helix on the T55 end in Fort Worth and do a reversing loop on the other end.

So what do you think?

A Great Start!

I think you've got a great start. But after reading a lot of these suggestions by others, who seem to be more knowledgeable than me, they do make some good comments. But I might have a few comments of my own. For one thing, if you are running N scale, why not have two main lines? One for passenger trains, one for freight trains. 

I run on a 4x8, but have a lot of track on it, and it is not unusual for me to run freight trains 6 feet long. Especially with two engines lashed up. And with that much track, I suspect that you too will want to run longer trains as well. So less lanes and longer lanes in the yard might be nice. You have mentioned an interest in other levels, putting a hidden yard underneath is a good way to free up more space on top of the layout, and keep several trains hooked up ready to roll when needed. And they don't really need scenery either. 

subjects I've not heard addressed are what is your minimum curve radius? smallest turnout angle? any grades? Some grades, especially on long runs of track, add a lot of realism to landscaping. Even if it's just an inch or so of rise to a town, and back down. Keep grades to 2% or less, steeper will restrict train length. Since you have the space, use longer turnout angles on the main, short turnouts are common in yards. And of course on the main tracks use the biggest radii as space will allow! and even on sidings and spurs I suggest not going below an 11" radius. Longer cars do not like anything less. 

It would seem that your thoughts have been geared toward operations, and what you want to do with the trains, but as it has already been said, less is more in some cases, and remember to leave room for scenery. Have an area that is dedicated to operations, and farther down, leave some empty space for scenery. 

That's just some ideas that I've been pondering for my next layout as well, but overall, I'd say you were off to a great start, but I also don't think this is your finished plan either. Planning is half the fun! So enjoy!

Russell

Thanks Russ

Yea, I guess I did leave a few things out.

My minimum radius turns are 15". All of my switches will be PECO switches. When I used the CAD program to draw this, I used the short PECO turnouts. However I do have some long turnouts in my inventory so I could use those.

You bring up the question of a dual main line. I had thought of that but didn't put one in as in the maps I have, some areas only showed a single main. But with what you stated, maybe I should take a second look at running a double main.

Now that I have a base plan drawn, I'll start to take a more in depth look at it  and the suggestions that everyone has given. Stand by for Rev 2 of the plan.  

Starting over

Ok I've been thinking some which can sometimes be a bad thing. But back to the drawing board.

I'm now looking at a W style double decker.

Lower level will be the T&P with the station on the lower 16' side and a 8' usable yard on the lower side of the middle island. I'll have a 15" radius helix in the lower left end with either a turn around or another helix on the other end. The upper 16' side will be Midland/Odessa with the upper side of the island being open running room.

The upper level will house the north side of Fort Worth and Wichita falls. I may not do a upper deck on the island, still not sure. If I do, it would add another 20' of running room though.

With this amount of room, I can run 6 car passenger cars at 3 1/2' train. (6" passenger cars) and at least a 10 car freight at almost 4' with a F7 A/B (3 1/2" box cars). A 20 car train would be reaching 7 1/2 feet.

So I'll keep working on it and try aging in a few weeks when I get it drawn out and incorporate what I have learned from you guys. Isles will be smaller at around 30". That should be OK as mostly it will be just me running trains. Thanks a lot. If you have any more inputs, please keep them coming. 

Oh, one other thing, most of my structures will be like 2" mounted up against the back drop so that I can have more room for track.

Thanks for the laugh Eric.

I think I'm only on rev 10 even though not all of them were ever completed. Now I don't feel so bad.

I've started doing a double decker W shape. I'm working on the lower deck and it seems to be working out better.

I've got a passenger station on the bottom side now that will handle 4 trains of 6 cars and the loco's. Got room for the roundhouse at the end and some room for a servicing facility. Got about a 5 1/2' of usable track in the yard with 6 tracks on the bottom side of the center island. Probably still need to do some more work on it.

 I've got Midland on the opposite side of the center island with Odessa on the upper side. It gives me a good 6' between towns. I may make the towns a little smaller so I'll have more room between towns. I'm still not sure if I want a reverse loop or a helix at the end. But it's looking a lot better.