Using alcohol

Tim, did you allow the alcohol to dry before wetting with water?  Or did you immediately spray water right after applying the alcohol.  I've thought about trying this method myself.  It seems that working with grout would be quite unforgiving, so testing first as you did is smart thing to do.

John

I soak it with water right

I soak it with water right after applying the alcohol.  Rubbing alcohol works great as a wetting agent, like soapy water on steroids....

To Grout or not to Grout

Hey Tim,

 I have been thinking about doing this myself as I have a good amount of grout available. The one thing that has stopped me from this application is that when tiling grout needs to be worked to be looking and functioning at it's best. This seems to be in conflict with the more traditional ballast technique of soaking and leaving alone.

Thanks for taking the time to experiment and share your findings. I'll be following along

John R

Another experiment

Try mixing some grout and pouring it onto the track wet, then use a sprayer and/or wet brush to spread it as needed and clean the rails & ties.  That's the method I prefer, as I did not like the results I was getting applying it dry.

Good suggestion Ken

Ken,  I like that idea, hadn't thought of applying it wet.  Will give it a try and post the results.

So far, the results I have go look to me like dried mud, which may not be all that far from the reality of the terminal, but not sure if I want to use that for the final look.

Like the look

Tim

I like the look of your test track and I have seen this idea mentioned on the forum before.   Members have said that with Elmers glue bonded ballast it is possible to re-soak the ballast and be able to take up the track to reuse.  So my question is:  Would the cured grout be permanent and make the track non-reusable?  I may need to goi with the "dirt" ballast also, but would like to be able to reuse the track if possible.

Grout

Thanks for sharing!

I'm wondering if the ballast is too close to black.

There may be a lot of oil dropped into the ballast which would cause that dark grey color.  I've been to the Los Angeles Junction Railway and noticed that they have virtually no ballast that I could find, and the dirt that the track was laid in was just brown.  It really wasn't any different near the rails than it was away from the track.  Of course there may be a difference between what is now and what was then.

Hi Peter - Yes, please do

Hi Peter -

Yes, please do post some photos.  I'm modeling the RGS in HO, and most of that was dirt ballast as well, and I've been wondering if grout would work.  I plan to paint most of the ties a fairly light gray or light brown; the darker grout should make a nice contrast.

But, I do want to avoid a 'mud' look, as that's not what I'm after.  Unless modeling the RGS in 1911... but then I could just toss flex track all over and it'd be about right! 

Sanded Tile Grout Ballast Examples

Tim -

Here are some examples (from 3 years ago when I first tried this out) of my sanded tile grout for ballast experiments. As you can see, there is a  white cast to it, and as I told you on your blog, I just haven't ever gotten back around to trying to fix that with  wash of something (India Ink, paint, whatever). We did this as an experiment, and it has never been carried forth, not because I didn't like it (I'm not sure I LOVE it either!), but because I wanted to get the track in and where I wanted it (some ballast has been removed since then because of this very reason), BEFORE I ballast it for good. the grout is the better choice, because like your Bronx yard, there was no ballast to speak of in mine (Jersey City), either. It was laid upon cinders and dirt, nothing more.

Now that there is interest in this again, when I come back from this weekend's RPM event in Valley Forge, PA, maybe I'll go back and play with this some more, and see what results I get by taking my time and working on a nice finished section of track.

Thinking out loud here but.......

I have been following this thread closely as I am interested in grout for ballast and want to see how it comes out for you.  I like the overall look you are getting but feel that it's not quite there (for me).  Hopefully I can live vicariously through you and reap the benefits - no need to make the same misadventures just to learn the same lesson.

I was thinking that the grout looks well for a bulk of the build up and most of the texture but what about a light dusting of a zip texturing powder for the final color, texture and "finish" on your first pictures?  Any thoughts on this?

Looking forward to the rest of the thread

Steve

Huh...

I've been curious about grout for fine-textured ballast but seeing the experiments here and around the web leaves me wondering how controllable it is.  Many of the photos I've seen suggest the grout doesn't necessarily stay put and can sometimes turn into a muddy looking mess.  For those who've tried it, are there any secrets for keeping it where you put it before wetting, or does it inevitably migrate around and/or get lumpy?

Thanks for the feedback

Hi,

Ralph, thanks for the images.  I suspect the white you are seeing will be fairly easily mitigated with a wash of dye or a light mist of paint.

I am still on the fence, I like the texture, but not so much the crawling up the rails I am seeing, or the "muddy" effect it creates.  I will try a couple other approaches later today.  One, as suggested earlier, will be to apply it wet.  I will also try just wetting it, then gluing it in place instead of soaking it down with water.

If I can't get the results I like with either of these methods I will move onto something else.

I will post some images of the results.

Tim

More ideas

I wonder whether you could lay the track directly into wet grout?  That would prevent the grout from getting onto the rails, and might also bond the track down at the same time.

For what it's worth, I have seen a lot of old dirt-ballasted track with dirt and junk in the rail webs, very much like the way the grout looks.

Mixing grout with ballast

Have there been any tries to mix grout with conventional ballast or sand to reduce the "muddiness" and make it more granular?

Has there been any evidence of alkalinity from the lime in the grout being corrosive or giving conductive issues?

In defense of grout

Tim -

Glad my photos helped give you an idea of what other have done, even if they are kind of crappy, LOL!

In defense of using the sanded tile grout, and taking into consideration the observed and noted issues with "muddiness" and "creeping", all I can say is this. My photos were taken after a fellow modeler suggested the idea, though none of us had ever thought of or hear of using it (makes me wonder where he hear of it!). Not only that, we had no idea what it was going to do, or even look once we laid it down. The next time I do this, it'll be a "controlled" situation and I will take my time, maybe even lay down some ground cover first (in the photos, all that is is brown painted pink styrofoam, nothing else!).

Be back after the weekend......

Sanded Grout

My wife and I had just laid tile in the dining room, hallways and kitchen using the same brand of grout that Tim shows in his pic.  I have thought about using this to cover my painted Styrofoam mountains to get a high desert effect of sandy looking mountains.  You can get it in other colors.

As far as the ballast goes I think a wet mix would be more controllable than the dry mix.  To do the floor I was mixing half bag batches into a five gallon bucket using a long mixing tool attached to a heavy duty drill..  Maybe smaller batches in a half gallon coffee can would work better, but you will need to follow the directions for the mix.  You should be able to get a good effect with it.

Tim, looking at one of the other isolated ports similar to yours, I considered modeling it, there was a coal business there.  It blackened everything around the yard.

Den

What if ?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that once grout is in place and set up you have a couple of potential problems:

• The stuff is hard like rocks so could making holes in it for wires or tree spikes or other "needs" result in cracking/chipping?
• If you need to remove the grout (such as when some ballast gets in a frog and isn't noticed until after it sets or when track needs to be relocated) is this possible without a (scale) jack hammer? With regular ballast and dilute white glue I just dribble 70% ISO alcohol on it and the ballast comes right up.

If the desired effect is track with ties buried in mud, I think the grout might be a tad on the coarse side.

FWIW

Charlie

I would go with real dirt

Tim,

I share Charlie's concerns especially the degree of coarseness of the grout.  I would go with the time tested, sifted, real dirt to get the look you are after.  BTW:  The Bronx Terminal model is pretty amazing.

The scene below is using real dirt ballast:

I can provide more details on the materials and techniques if you are interested.

Guy

Yes...Show Your Techniques

Guy,

I like the look you have here.  I'd be interested in seeing your techniques.  Why don't you start a new thread covering that?

Regards,

Jack

I keep thinking...

No doubt I am letting my inexperience show through glaringly by suggesting this, but I keep thinking one could maybe use thin, tinted, "drywall mud" poured in and around tracks.  If it was thinned just right it would be somewhat prone to self leveling...I think and yet it will setup solid enough in the end.  The one issue I can think of right off would be shrinkage cracks if it is applied in too thick of a coat, so maybe two separate pours with drying time between, would be wise?

Then it seems like treatments with zip texturing powders would handle finished color and texture.  The only thing is, turnouts could be a problem...but maybe not as much as if using the grout?

I would be worried about the rock hard nature of grout.  A little water and a sponge can do wonders with drywall mud, with grout, not so much.

Looking forward to seeing the results regardless of what method proves most useful.

Sanded Grout in turntable area

Here are some photos of sanded grout used my turntable area.  It is not finished as the Engine house needs to be finished and permanently added and some areas need to be "touched up".  It couldn't have been simpler to put down.  I spread it dry with a fan and bushy round brush to get it where I wanted.  I gave it a light spray with wet water and waited a few minutes for this to spread and make the area damp,  then I really soaked it just until you can see it shiny with water-no more than that or it might run.  Wait for it to dry.  I run a truck with metal wheels to make sure the flanges were clear.  I personally like the look and will experiment with the main line area and report.

Peter

new thread on dirt ballast

"Why don't you start a new thread covering that?

Regards,

Jack"

For those who are interested, see the Dirt ballast thread.

Guy 

Well Kevin

The appeal of sanded grout, especially in smaller scales, is the texture - specifically the small grain size "rock" that's in the matrix.  Having worked with dry wall mud in various admixtures, I can say that I have yet to see it so thin that you have the texture you get from sanded grout.  And I don't thik you ever could, as the mud's main component is too finely ground.

Now having typed all that I'm sure we'll get a ton of replies with pics that prove me wrong.