Athearn Genesis SD70 Truck Problem

LKandO Prolific poster 3,839 posts

LKandO

Does Happen

The Internet is full of people describing the affliction you describe. Apparently it is (or was) an issue.

Being aware of that I took special precaution when I bought an Athearn Genesis SD70MAC Spirit of Cumberland two years ago from Pacific Western Rail Systems. I have a blog entry about it.

Alan

All the details: http://www.LKOrailroad.com Just the highlights: MRH blog

When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro

Reply 1

Bernd MRH Author 5,546 posts

Bernd

Questions

Are the bearings on the inside of the wheels or outside in the truck frame? Could be one of the holes the axle rides in is out of alignment if it's an out side bearing. The truck frame could be also be twisted.

Kind of hard diagnose without actually seeing it. How about some pics if possible?

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 1

JRG1951 Frequent poster 786 posts

JRG1951

Known Problem for Athearn

This information is not from personal experience, But from what I have read this is a manufacturing defect. It is an alignment problem and the best fix is to contact Athearn for replacement parts.

It seems The outside bearing assembly is not built with the proper alignment. All the wheels are not contacting the rails. Athearn is aware of the problem and has taken corrective action. New parts may be available by now.

Good Luck

John

**********************************************************************************************************************************************

Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets. Gen George S. Patton

Reply 1

Dwhitten Regular poster 145 posts

Dwhitten

SD70

Which SD70 are we talking about? Is it the older run of SD70's or the newer SD70Ace's and SD70M-2's?

I have noticed a few problems on the front truck of my SD70Ace. Haven't had the chance to really look at but all my other 6 axle power runs fine. Even the older run athearn sd70's!

Dustin Whitten

Atlantic & East Virginia Railway

Reply 1

JRG1951 Frequent poster 786 posts

JRG1951

What SD70?

Dustin,

I'm not sure what production run had the problem, and it is possible that I addressed the wrong problem. The information came off of the internet, but i don't remember the site.

Checking the wheel contact on glass or a solid surface would reveal if the truck has this problem

It is possible that Atlas fixed the problem and the overseas factory reintroduced the problem.

I am guessing now, I do not know, so I shall shut up.

Regards,

John

**********************************************************************************************************************************************

I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow. Woodrow Wilson

Reply 1

Pirosko Regular poster 331 posts

Pirosko

It is not just

It is not just the SD70, Their 6 axle trucks seem to have this issue. It is the brass side wiper that the axles fit into. They are very slightly warped vertically, hence no contact on one of the leading or trailing axles. Simply take them out and bend them back by hand using a very flat surface, such as glass to verify they are flat. In one of my locos (the SD70 I think, was off by over a 1/16" !!) Caused tracking problem on curves and switches. Simple fix, good luck.

Steve

Reply 2

Dwhitten Regular poster 145 posts

Dwhitten

SD70Ace

I ran my Genesis 70Ace today and it looks like my problem is on the front wheel of the front truck. It does seem that the wheel is making contact with the rail but it seems that it has "light" contact with the rail. If that makes any sense! But here is the thing....it only gives problems when the engine is turned around Trailing. Runs fine when the unit is leading. And as mentioned above, the issue is on some curves and switches, but is very sporadic.

I run this unit with another genesis SD70 and that unit runs fine as does all of my other 6 axle power. Does this sound like the same problem as mentioned above or is it something different?

Dustin Whitten

Atlantic & East Virginia Railway

Reply 1

surfliner New member 6 posts

surfliner

Here's the problem....

When they fabricated the truck, it was pulled out of the mold too quick and it "warped". BELIEVE ME, send it back to Athearn and they will fix it for no charge. I had the BNSF Vomit Comet, and it was BAD. Every time it transitioned through a switch, it would derail. Now it's good as new!!!

Reply 1

Pirosko Regular poster 331 posts

Pirosko

Again, it may be the truck,

Again, it may be the truck, but there is enough play in the brass clip that all it takes is a very, very slight bend downwards to even the pressure on all three axles. I may go as far as suggesting to over bend so that there is more contact pressure on the two outside axles, similar situation to a flangeless driver on huge steamers.

Steve

Reply 1

duckdogger Super User 808 posts

duckdogger

Defective Athearn trucks

The fact that this problem persists, based on the posts in this thread concerning new SD70ACe, is incredible. Especially within the context the manufacturer has replacement parts for previous runs. I ended up selling my 2 SD75Is for pennies on the dollar to a person who wanted only the motors. As good as the new Athearn units look, I confine my purchases of this locomotive to Kato only.

Index of my blog posts

Reply 1

Dwhitten Regular poster 145 posts

Dwhitten

I agree!

I couldn't agree more! I love the way Athearn Genesis units look, but I will never buy another one. I have been perfectly happy with most of the RTR stuff I bought but the Genesis line seems to have alot of issues. I only have a couple Genesis units, but i can list three pages of things that are wrong with them......

Dustin Whitten

Atlantic & East Virginia Railway

Reply 1

railandsail Prolific poster 8,766 posts

railandsail

Interesting stuff.
I have 2 Genesis SD70MACs (BNSF scheme) I bought a LONG time ago, and they have been sitting in boxes waiting for my new layout. I got them out yesterday for their first running. I was disappointed that they seem to want to derail so easily or an uphill curve,...and on a tight radius curved switch that I have. One of them is worst than the other.

I read thru a couple of other threads about problems with these engines, and then took another look at them this morning. I DO NOT seem to detect any warpage in the trucks that has been mentioned a number of times, ..so I began to look for any interference's that might occur as the trucks swung around when making a turn. I believe I have detected that one engine is worst than the other,..in that the wheels come to close to the frame piece on which the coupler pocket is located on.

It appears to me that a very slight shim between the truck assy and the frame would increase the clearances between the truck from and the main frame just enough to clear this up? Now I need to determine HOW to get the shell off the frame??

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 1

railandsail Prolific poster 8,766 posts

railandsail

Minimum radius? btw what is the minimum radius that these locos might run on? I had high hopes they might work on a few spots where I have 22" r.

I found this about removing the shells,....

Quote:

I just purchased a beautiful SD70MAC in Springfield. My only problem big problem right now is getting the shell off. The literature included metions squeezing at the base of the long hood under the Q-fans. I'm assuming the would be the three fans for engine cooling. My real problem is I'm afraid to apply too much presure or do somthing to muck up this beautiful peace. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Guys I figured out the hood problem. Get out your flashlight and look on the bottom of the frame. if you look through the front of the rear truck and the rear of the front truck you can see where the clips peek through. I used an almost needle fine flat head screw driver and undid both on one side and then the other side. Be carefull of the two grab irons in the front, also the railing attaches to the cab at some points. Provided they are not glued you can simply pull them out (gently of course). As for derailment both of my six axle athearns don't like turnouts that are sloppy. I found that the points of some of our atlas turnouts rode just low enough as compared to the stock rail that the wheel uses it as a ramp and splits the switch. I figured this out while testing my loco stripped down to the frame. I also had some trouble in the front truck with a clicking noise. I striped down the entire truck to the gears and found the problem to be a burr in the worm gear. A bit of filing and some grease instead of that thin oil and it runs much better. I'm putting a decoder in mine ASAP so I can see those ditch lights work as they were meant to.

Forgot to mention be carefull when removing the shell that you dont yank the wires out. There are eight wires total (In my NS version) that run to the lights mounted on the shell. You'll find the two sets for the ditch lights run along side the power pickup to the center. The power pickups in this loco are neat as they have their own grooves so they stay out of the way. Hope this helps for the future.

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 1

Nelsonb111563 Moderator 2,265 posts

Nelsonb111563

Take your time taking the shell off as it's delicate. My experience with this model is the trucks do not have enough "play" in them. A shim may work but I modified this part to allow the trucks more movement. I filed the round nubs down a small amount to allow side to side play effectively creating a "3 point suspension" . I have a couple of 22" radius curves that my model derailed on constantly and this small modification cured that issue

Nelson Beaudry, Principle/CEO

Kennebec, Penobscot and Northern RR Co.

Reply 1

railandsail Prolific poster 8,766 posts

railandsail

Very interesting discussions here,... https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,2328420

......including this possible solution

Quote:

> I had a weird thought last night and I will trow
> it out to see what the group thinks. What would
> happen if you removed the center axle so the truck
> rest on the out board axles.
>
> Andre

I had a similar thought. File the center copper-bar axle opening larger so that the center axle set moves up and down (vertically) more freely, thus allowing the truck to rest on the outboard axles. I don't think you could completely remove the center wheel set because the gears on the axle are necessary to turn the gears on the outboard wheelsets.
Joe

I just read it this week,.....enlarging the middle axle hole sounded intriguing, so I tried it. Amazing, my Athearn SD70ACe tracks and picks up like a charm now!

That sounds very interesting !!

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 1

railandsail Prolific poster 8,766 posts

railandsail

I was just about to give up on these Athearn Genesis locomotives after this pair of SD70's exhibited such a poor tracking ability.

So just as I was putting things away to night I thought I would try running another 6 axle Genesis engine across several of those places where I had trouble earlier. These were FB45's that I have 4 of. Wow, they ran smooth as silk over those same spots. I wonder how one design of their's was so much better??

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 1

railandsail Prolific poster 8,766 posts

railandsail

I read a bit further on that other forum discussion I referenced above, and found this,..

Quote:

I have had three Athearn Genesis locos that had this problem. In all three cases I traced the problem to faulty bronze bearings in the truck sideframe. When I placed the trucks on a flat surface (eg a piece of glass from an old picture frame) and hold up to the light I can see daylight under one or more wheels. The fix is to dismantle the truck and straighten one or both bronze bearing pieces. I reuse the glass surface to help with this task. Make sure the bronze sideplate is straight and that all 3 bottom bits touch the glass. I straightened the bronze by carefully bending by hand, but be careful as they are relatively weak. Taking the trucks apart is the answer but experience in doing this is required. I have also found some wheelsets out of gauge so check and fix this at the same time if required.

Quote:

I attempted to bend the copper contacts. However,the contacts are made to fit into the truck sideframes, not just fit beside them and the axle tips do extend inside the sideframes as well. Basically, everything we know about older Athearn trucks, can be thrown out the window.

For a short time I thought I had bend just enough to fix the problem, but running the unit showed there was binding in the gear train somewhere. The unit would surge.

Although, not impossible, to repair would be quite a project, considering Athearn will replace them such as they did for the original SD70 truck problems a few years back.

Quote:

I worked with another friend this weekend on fixing some warped trucks on his BNSF SD70ACE. It took a long time to remove the trucks. You have to remove the shell, remove wires from trucks with that stupid tab system, pop the gear case covers, then remove the worm and drive shafts. Trucks will then drop out.

Then we had to disassemble the trucks. We worked with the copper strips and tried to make them true. Then a full reassemble process. Took about 90 minutes. When completed, we found the problem was even worse.

The only hope is too ask for new trucks or return to Athearn or return outright. When the same truck problem existed with the original run of the SD70's, I emailed Athearn and they sent me new trucks. The replacement trucks were more warped then the ones I had.

Sounds like I need to contact Athearn and see if I can get any adjustment,...maybe some replacement trucks??

It surely may have a big influence on any future purchases of their products by me.

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 1

railandsail Prolific poster 8,766 posts

railandsail

I though I might see what some other 6 axles diesels I had that might navigate that rather challenging bit of curved track and curved turnouts to go from the central peninsula over to the diesel servicing area and the freight yard tracks. The nominal radius here is 22".

Here we have a Proto 1K, a Genesis FP45, and a MTH diesel that all survived the trip.

But the Genesis SD70MAC could NOT make that trip,....derailed every time.

I'm rather surprised that not that many folks have posted anything about this problem since it seems to have been rather wide spread?......maybe its just too long ago that the problem occurred??

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 1

railandsail Prolific poster 8,766 posts

railandsail

Quote:
from another forum,....if the trucks are not warped, check out the wheel gauge. I no longer use anything less than 28" radius, but years ago when starting, I used 18" and 22" sectional track. One thing that I learned from several old veterans was to set the wheel gauge of the outer two axles on a three axle truck, to the maximum (.605") of the NMRA gauge. Set the inner axle to the minimum (.560") or very slightly under the minimum (~.556"). This prevents the wheels on the inner axle from binding through curves and controls derailing.

SD70MAC's, while supposedly can navigate 22" curves, really look out of place when doing so.

Very interesting idea. ...deserves an experiment

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 1

railandsail Prolific poster 8,766 posts

railandsail

Today I decided to just have a quick new look at the Genesis engine running again. I noticed that the side frames on the trucks seemed to 'wobble'. I flipped it upside down and found one end of each truck did NOT have the 2 sides joined together. And there did not appear to be a 'connection' provided? Were they thinking it would be glued together??

Can anyone comment on this?

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 0

Bshoop Super User 1,383 posts

Bshoop

From your pics, it appears to be removable sideframe castings that press into the black truck gearbox frame. Admittedly, I don't have a lot of experience with much of the "newer" Athearn stuff.
In a perfect world, the side frame castings would be nice and flat and straight, and their ends would butt tight against those middle end pieces of the gearbox, but they appear to be bent or warped. Maybe the mounting pins that press into the black truck gearbox are slightly bent or maybe the side frame itself is slightly warped or bent, or maybe the sideframes just aren't pressed on evenly and all the way on.

Look at your loco's truck in your first pic also.

Screenshot_20221201_232821_Samsung Internet.jpg

The brass bushing/power pick-up in the bottom far right side wheelset does not appear to be fully seated into the sideframe, which could keep it from fitting and/or tracking properly.

In the second pic, the far left wheeset probably isn't even picking up power or rolling completely true, as the sideframe and bushing/power pick-up on the top is so bent out of alignment that the end of the axle isn't even in it's bushing.

Screenshot_20221202_000352_Samsung Internet.jpg

If it were me, I would remove the sideframes, check those bushings, and look at the mounting pin lugs that press into the black truck gearbox that's on the side frames (make sure that they're nice and perpendicular to the side frames, not bent) and also look to see how straight and true the side frames are and VERY carefully try to flex or bend them straight if necessary, and press the sideframes back on tight and evenly. Good luck.

Reply 1

Rasselmag Frequent poster 531 posts

Rasselmag

@brian,

do you have noticed, that one of the mounting outriggers (tabs) for the truck sideframe is missing? See 2. photo of your and in this case the pictured lower truck sideframe.
With the other truck pictured all 4 tabs are there where they should be. But on the other truck one is missing. These are essential for a proper mounting of the truck sideframes.
If there is still warranty valid onto this loco, then declare a warranty case.

Lutz

Reply 1

railandsail Prolific poster 8,766 posts

railandsail

Two of these locos were sold to me as brand new,...and they have remained in those original boxes for many years waiting for a new layout. I believe they were unused as the original packaging looked to be in place.

I have written an email to Athearn ,...

Quote:

Good morning. I'm a 80 year old retiree living here i FL, and building my dream layout in a handi-house shed here in my car port..I've been collecting up HO trains for quite a number of years to eventually run on that layout.

Yesterday I unpacked 2 BNSF athearn Genesis locos (SD70 MAC) to run on the layout. I was severely disappointed in their derail tendencies,...i documented it here on this forum,..

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/athearn-genesis-sd70-truck-problem-12189565?pid=1333938360

...and then i found this....

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,2328420

What help can you provide me with??

I am waiting for their reply. I think I should wait for that reply before I go digging into any experiments/fixes etc?

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 1

railandsail Prolific poster 8,766 posts

railandsail

good VIDEO ,.... How to diassemble Athearn Trucks,.... working on these trucks & how they differ from other Athearn trucks

"see these little tabs here" , .......1 of mine is missing altogether, and another one is broken. How could that have occured on a brand new locomotive?? assembly mistake??

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 1

the MRH Forum

Smileys & People

Animals

Food & Drink

Symbols

Travel & Places

Alphabet

Activity

Modal title

Smileys & People

Animals

Food & Drink

Symbols

Travel & Places

Alphabet

Activity

Insert Code

Source Code

Insert Link