rickwade

I've been intrigued by the wonderful pictures with great depth of field that have been posted on this site.  I understand that one way to do this is by taking a series of pictures with different focus and then using software to combine them to create a sharp focus image.

I understand to do this that the camera must be absolutely still from shot to shot as the focus is changed to get a successful combination using the software.  This sounds like that in order to do this you would need a camera that you could control the focus and shutter release with a remote control (wired or wireless).

So can those of you that use the technique share what type of camera / remote that they have, or are you just very, very good at taking separate shots and adjusting the focus without moving the camera?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Rick

Rick

img_4768.jpg 

The Richlawn Railroad Website - Featuring the L&N in HO  / MRH Blog  / MRM #123

Mt. 22: 37- 40

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Possible, but...

Dear Rick,

Can I suggest a slightly different tack first, which costs nothing, 
and might get you  a significant portion of the results?

- put camera on tripod

- set to "Apeture Priority" mode (usually indicated with an "A" icon)

- if needs be manually set the flash to OFF
(This will test the scene lighting, but is much preferrable to a "flash white-out" image)

- set the "F number" as HIGH as you can
(On my Nikon, it's by spinning the thumbwheel "data knob")

NB the camera is now setup for "maximum depth of field in one shot",
and will automatically do the maths to work out how long it needs to keep the shutter open
("exposure time"), to get the shot

- set the "countdown timer" for 10 seconds
(so you can trip the shutter, stand back, and let the camera sit still on the tripod)

- "Half-press" the GO button and train the focus on the _Key element_ in the scene,
(or if there is no real "key item" in the scene,
despite the obvious question "so why are you taking the photo?",
aim for "1/2 way back" in the scene).

then fully depress the "Go" button,
step back,
let the camera take the shot,
(10 sec countdown + however long the camera determines it needs for the exposure)

and check the resulting image from there...

I've tested this technique on 
- Nikon Coolpix 900
- Nikon Coolpix 990
- Nikon Coolpix 4500
- Canon D20 DSLR
- various Fuji Finepix "point-and-shoot" units

and it's always resulted in a much better image than anyone in the room expected,
(and infinitely better than the "walk-up, shoot, walk-away" results they were getting only 10 seconds earlier...)

If you are still in the hunt for a new camera with "remote" capabilities
- some cameras are available with wireless (Infra-red) remotes
- many "DSLR" type cameras have basic "remote shutter" connections, which you can make up a "trip switch" for
(If you've wired a single turnout motor, this should be a doddle)
- taken to it's extreme, the high-grade Nikon and Canon DSLRs have remote-control software which connects via USB or firewire. This allows full access to most every parameter of the camera via a PC or laptop in realtime. However, we are talking serious $$$$$$$ here...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
rickwade

Thanks you, Professor - but

Professor,

Thank you for your suggestions; however, my Nikon S630 does not have the ability to set "Apeture Priority".  Looks like I'm going to have to purchase a new camera.

Rick

Rick

img_4768.jpg 

The Richlawn Railroad Website - Featuring the L&N in HO  / MRH Blog  / MRM #123

Mt. 22: 37- 40

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Freak out the SalesGuy...

Dear Rick,

OK, understood. However, if you're "going shopping" for a camera,
and - perish the thought - heading into a bricks-n-mortar store to get your hands on one,

I wouldn't ignore the opportunity to grab a figure or 2, and maybe a small car of some description,
place them along the salescounter between 3" and 24" from you,
and do the above "Apeture Priority" experiment right there in the shop...

If the salesguy wants to make the sale, he'll "go along with it"...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
Scarpia

Cameras...

Rich,

welcome to the Jungle. I recently went through this same decision making process for myself, and walked away a great deal poorer, but happy.  Hopefully Charlie will sound off on this, as he was a great help to me while deciding what to get.  Remember though, that you can use a new camera for more than just trains, like taking trave pictures and family shots.

Prof K is right about using a high F stop,  tripod, and the self timer on the camera. Manual focus is also necessary, custom white balance capability,  and from what I've been learning, complete manual operation.  This takes the camera purchase out of the range of your Nikon though (as you've discovered).

The cheapest DSLR that I can find in quick search is the Canon Rebel T3 at Amazon or the Nikon D3000 also from Amazon. These should give you a good idea of a starting point; note that this can be a slippery monetary slope as you discover better glass.

There may be fixed lens cameras or other new mirrorless ones out there (from Panasonic, etc.) that will satisfy the same requirements, so I'm hoping someone else writes in as well!

 


HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Cheaper can do it...

Dear Scarpia, Rick,

I bought my wife a Fuji FinePix (can't remember the model #) for her last birthday, and used the above test instore, (amoungst other tests, her old camera was devastatingly slow on the "draw!", so she wanted something that was "turn on and ready to shoot" real quick...).

For a sub AUD$200 camera, it allowed all the required manual control, and produced an fantastic image. 
My personal Nikon Coolpix 4500 and now-on-the-shelf 990 can also do these tricks, and they were/are sub AUD$300 cameras.

It doesn't have to be a DSLR for most "common modelling tasks", 
it just has to have the right mode available, 
and a "mode selector" dial with an "A" icon is a really good quick clue...

(That said, from many days in the video world, nothing beats a decent lense out front, 
even if it's a non-removable one... )

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS This is also another example of where "getting your hands on the camera instore _Before_ purchase" is a great idea... 

Reply 0
Scarpia

PS This is also another

Quote:

PS This is also another example of where "getting your hands on the camera instore _Before_ purchase" is a great idea...

Prof...

you keep mentioning this. While sure it's great to get your hands on camera, it may not always be possible - note that "camera stores" in some parts of the world have dried up - 4 years ago in my area in the USA there were four camera shops, two years ago zero.  I don't know Rick's situation where he lives, but you may want to take that into consideration.

Per the pricing, I'd still recommend looking a bit higher if he can - as I noted, a good camera has many more uses than just modeling, and can pay back it's owner through a variety of activities.

With my lighting situation, I found that an "A" mode, even on cameras with great lenses (e.g. Leica), isn't sufficient on its own. 

Not knowing Rick's environment, I'd hate to suggest any camera (even if at half the price) that will leaving him frustrated down the road. The cameras you list, for instance, have limited ISO settings. Something like the DSLR's I've listed (or something with similar features) would allow him the room to grow with his camera skills if he wants.


HO, early transition erahttp://www.garbo.org/MRRlocal time PST
On30, circa 1900  

 

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

mean what I say...

Dear Scarpia,

Quote:

you keep mentioning (EDIT: making sure one gets their hand ON the camera _before_ purchase) this. While sure it's great to get your hands on camera, it may not always be possible - note that "camera stores" in some parts of the world have dried up - 4 years ago in my area in the USA there were four camera shops, two years ago zero.  I don't know Rick's situation where he lives, but you may want to take that into consideration.

 

Respectfully Considered, and I maintain and stand by my comments as writ.

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
Donald

Camera suggestion

Rick, a good mid line, mid price camera is the Canon EOS Rebel T2i.  The latest model is the T3i.

I think Jeff Schultz bought the T3i this summer.  I've been using the T2i for over a year and love it.  The newer T3i has an adjustable view screen - and costs more.  

Both have two and ten second timers, auto configurations, and control every thing manually settings.  Plus, if you have an old laptop, you can compose your photo through the PC screen.  The Canon 18-55mm lense is good for layout photos.  The camera also will shoot hi def video for over an hour with a big, fast memory card.  Canon has remote control accessories, but they are expensive and probably not necessary.

Here is one link to research:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Price_%24750+to+%24999.99&ci=9811&N=4288586282+4291570227+4293918087

Hopefully, Jeff and Charlie will have suggestions.

Don

Don Underwood

Modeling the Northwestern Pacific

"The Redwood Route"

HO, double deck, 17' x 18'

Reply 0
Tom Patterson

Digital Camera

Rick-

I've been using a Nikon D3100, a tripod and the CombineZM software for some of the photos you've seen here. The CombineZM software is similar to Helicon Focus but is free. I mount the camera on a tripod and then shoot away. If the camera is fastened relatively securely to the tripod, you can move the focus ring without moving the camera. Depending upon the depth of the scene, I take between 5- 10 shots and then use the CombineZM software to "stack" them together into one photo. I generally use a lower f-stop (11- 18) when taking photos this way as CombineZM takes care of the depth of field and the lower f-stops don't cause the photos to get "soft" (one of the many lessons from Charlie C. while working on the CV bridge article). The cover photo and the lead photo of the CV bridge article were taken this way.

Tom Patterson

  

Reply 0
rickwade

Loving the input -please keep it coming!

Thanks everybody for you input!  So far it looks like I'm looking around $500 for a good camera (about the cost of the suspended ceiling materials for my next RR expansion).  Please keep the suggestions coming.

Rick

Rick

img_4768.jpg 

The Richlawn Railroad Website - Featuring the L&N in HO  / MRH Blog  / MRM #123

Mt. 22: 37- 40

Reply 0
Bob Langer

Pawn shop

You do not need to spend a lot of money to buy a new camera. I am sure there are lots of DSLR cameras in your local pawn shop.

I have a Sony A100 with interchangeable lens. Set on ISO, aperture priority, and use a cable release.

One thing I have not done is experiment with changing the ISO values. I think the lower the value the less noise (grain) in the picture. Maybe someone who knows can comment.

One feature I would suggest is to get a DSLR that has an adjustable screen. This way you are able to frame the picture without being directly behind it. You would set the camera on the track and frame the picture before shooting. I do wish I had this feature on the Sony.

 

Bob Langer,

Facebook & Easy Model Railroad Inventory

Photographs removed from Photobucket.
 

Reply 0
kferguson

ISO formerly known as ASA

ISO is a number that relates to the sensitivity of the pickup device (or film in a previous life.)  You are correct in that the lower the ISO the more fine detail is retained.  A high ISO allows you to shoot in lower light levels and faster shutter speeds, but the higher the number, the more "noise" or lack of detail starts showing up, especially in the darker areas of the image.

So to shoot with a low ISO number and a high f-stop for depth of field, you will need to add more light.  Sometimes, a lot more light.  And, you may need to have a very long shutter speed (which will allow a more time for the light to be gathered by the sensor.)

In those situations where I am looking for great depth of field, I shoot from a tripod with the auto timer triggering the release.

I shoot with a point and click Sony, but even so, I can go into the menu and make limited changes ISO, shutter and aperture settings. 

Ken

Reply 0
kcsphil1

Don't need a full on DSLR

Rick,

I've been able to do really good photography in a pinch with my Nikon Cool Pix point and shoot.  Just had to read the manual on how.  I do have a DSLR, which I love, which is a Sony A33.  Once I got familiar with the controls, it was easy to get where you want to go, even with the stock kit lens that it came with.

Philip H. Chief Everything Officer Baton Rouge Southern Railroad, Mount Rainier Div.

"You can't just "Field of Dreams" it... not matter how James Earl Jones your voice is..." ~ my wife

My Blog Index

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Rotating screens, or the whole camera?

Dear Bob, et al,

That's one of the reasons I hang onto my Coolpix 4500, and even the older 990 which can now only power-on via a PSU. These were some of the first (and AFAIK sadly the last) cameras Nikon built with the heavy-duty "rotating body" system...

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikoncp4500/

The screen is on the "red stripe" bit, and the lense section can rotate from straight _down_, to "face forward" round the front, to straight _up_, and even backwards...
(Makes "scale eye level" shots in both landscape and portrait formats a doddle...)

The 4500 has been with me to Moscow, Singapore, Taiwan, NZ, and all over Oz, including in my pocket during "bushbashing" to find old NG logging tramways, and the rotating mechanism hasn't shown any hint of weakness or failing... (It's been over 7 years of regular use in all manner of situations, from "point-and-shoot" to 30+sec model-shots...)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
jeffshultz

My camera...

Quote:

I think Jeff Schultz bought the T3i this summer.  I've been using the T2i for over a year and love it.  The newer T3i has an adjustable view screen - and costs more

I actually bought it's little brother - the T3. Bit lower resolution, 720p instead of 1080p video, no flip screen. I would like to get a remote trigger for it - it's going to have to be a manual one unless someone makes a radio trigger that connects to the cable trigger socket.

Oh, btw - I love this thing. I've been using it to shoot video the past couple days.

 

orange70.jpg
Jeff Shultz - MRH Technical Assistant
DCC Features Matrix/My blog index
Modeling a fictional GWI shortline combining three separate areas into one freelance-ish railroad.

Reply 0
bear creek

Helicon Focus and focusing...

Rick,

You're succumbing to FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt). Don't do it.

First: focus stacking programs like helicon focus need an image stack that are all the same white balance and exposure. This precludes using ANY kind of automatic white balance, auto ISO selection, or exposure control (such as aperture priority or exposure priority).

Why?

Because as you focus back an forth in the image you're also zooming slightly. As you zoom light and dark portions of the scene may get "zoomed" out of the image causing an auto exposure mode to mistakenly change the light sensitivity making some of the images in your focus stack lighter or darker. The same applies to brightly color objects getting "zoomed" out of the picture causing the camera to rethink its automatic white balance.

You want a camera that offers MANUAL control over everything. Then set it to full manual control, determine a good IOS, white balance, exposure time, and aperture and use them for ALL the shots in a focus stack (set of pictures each of which is focused slightly differently).

Manual focusing is workable. I shoot a LOT of focus bracketed shots for MRH that I process with Helicon Focus. I can't remember the last time I used the remote control software for  my cameras for this purpose.

You WILL need to hold the camera steady. A tripod is the best way to do this. But just plopping the camera down on a flat spot on the layout works. Event setting the camera on the rails works (but put a piece of paper under it to avoid shorting out the rails and having the DCC booster weld the camera to the track -- I'm serious about the paper, but not about the welding which ain't gonna happen). If the camera is just set on the layout you'll need to be very steady in holding the camera in place. Think I'm kidding?  Nope -- I shoot a lot of focus stack photos with the camera sitting on the track.

The key to shooting focus stacks with a moderately precariously perched camera is the ability to focus smoothly and effortlessly. By that I mean the best way to focus is with a smooth-turning focus ring on the lens. If the focus ring is stiff you'll need to apply too much torque are and likely to "jiggle" the camera between shots. If that happens don't sweat it, delete what ever photos you've already shot for this focus stack and try again. I've been know to try 3 or 4 times to do a focus stack when the camera is awkwardly placed for me to hold. Just think of Horace Fithers using one hand to firmly press the camera down on where ever it's sitting (like some rails) and the other hand to alternative "tweak" the focus and press the shutter.

When placing the camera on top of the railroad, DO be very careful where the strap sits. Don't let it foul delicate details. Don't let it hang over the edge of the layout where you can snag the strap when you walk by or you will be buying a new camera when the old one becomes intimate with your concrete floor.

Cameras without a focus ring are going to be no fun at all. Using a menu to focus involves far too many intricate motions around the back of the camera to be able to hold it still. You can probably do this with a solid tripod, but it will be painful getting each focus step right. And it's just plain ain't gonna work if you're setting the camera on the layout. This is a place where remote control focusing (and shutter release) software would help (a LOT).

A camera with an articulated view screen on the back and live view capability (the ability to continuously display on the view screen what the photo would be if the shutter is pressed) is handy. Twisting the view screen around makes it easier to see what's on it without putting a crick in your neck from the contortions necessary to get an eye-ball into good position. But, articulated view screens tend to be smaller and lower res than fixed displays.

One more thing about focusing -- focus stack software such as Helicon Focus like to have relatively even focus distance steps between the individual images. When I'm shooting a focus stack, I try to turn the focus ring the same angular distance for each successive photo. Looking at the bumps on the focus ring can help keep those distance consistent. They don't have to be perfectly consist, but evenness is better than unevenness.

Almost any kind of DSLR is good for focus stacks. Compact point and shoots just plain won't work. Pro-sumer grade compact cameras with full manual control may work well depending on how focusing is controlled. A prosumer compact camera will probably have a remote control interface. But such a camera will likely cost as much as the less expensive DSLR cameras.

If you end up camera shopping look for one with a macro lens that will let you focus as close as about 10" away. The lens should ideally stop down to f/32 (for a DSLR) though f/22 is OK.  I typically use f/16 for focus stacks with my 17-50mm Tamron macro zoom. When shooting focus stacks with my 100-300 tele-zoom I usuually go for f/22 or f/32 so each component shot will have some depth of field of it's own (which makes life easier for Helicon Focus). Compact prosumer cameras typically have a much shorter focal length lens and will give good depth of field at f/8.

For more on "layout photography according to Charlie (and Horace)" you might check out the pdf file of my Model Railroading Clinic from the Sacramento National Convention in the bonus extras for the August 2011 MRH.

Hope this is helpful.

Charlie

 

Superintendent of nearly everything  ayco_hdr.jpg 

Reply 0
rickwade

Thanks, Jeff

Jeff,

Thanks for letting me know what camera you have.  The good news is I don't have to spend over $500 for it - but the bad news is I have to spend near $500 for it.  From reading everybody's posts I won't need a remote control camera as I already have a great tripod.

Rick

Rick

img_4768.jpg 

The Richlawn Railroad Website - Featuring the L&N in HO  / MRH Blog  / MRM #123

Mt. 22: 37- 40

Reply 0
rickwade

Thanks, Charlie!

Charlie,

Yes, I was succumbing to FUD!  Thanks you for your detailed post. I will download your PDF and give it a read.  So, if I get a new camera will you come to North Georgia and show me how to use it, or do I have to wait for the 2013 Peachtree Express national convention to meet you? 

Rick

Rick

img_4768.jpg 

The Richlawn Railroad Website - Featuring the L&N in HO  / MRH Blog  / MRM #123

Mt. 22: 37- 40

Reply 0
Bob Langer

Fixed length

Charlie,

What about a fixed length lens. I have a macro lens, maybe 24 MM? Just change the focus ring with the camera set on manual focus?

Thanks

Bob Langer,

Facebook & Easy Model Railroad Inventory

Photographs removed from Photobucket.
 

Reply 0
bear creek

A 24mm fixed focus length

A 24mm fixed focus length lens would be OK. Yes, just change the focus ring. Remember to set everything else for ALL the focus stack component photos manually before you start shooting the 'stack'.

Actually, I'd be a bit surprised if your 24mm is a macro. Macros (for a 35mm camera) usually seem to be 50mm and higher. But it wouldn't be the first (nor the last time) I've been surprised!

For goodness sakes you guys -- if you're gonna start messing around with focus stacking software, post some of your results! Even it they're not as good as you'd like post 'em anyway so we can see your progress as you figure out how it needs to be done.

Charlie

Superintendent of nearly everything  ayco_hdr.jpg 

Reply 0
Kevin Rowbotham

From a Newbie...

Rick, I feel your pain.  I was bitten by the digital bug when I was given an HP digital camera.  It was not much good but it introduced me to the digital world.  It wasn't long before I wanted something better.

After a lot of reading, looking and asking dumb questions, (thanks Mr. Fithers etal) I bought a Nikon D60 DSLR.  At first I was overwhelmed by the controls and took a lot of what I called great photos, just with the auto setting!

I kept reading the manual, over and over to get familiar with the controls and kept asking questions.  It was Charlie Comstock who finally explained ISO to me in a way that made sense.  Pretty much ever since then I have been getting better.  I still have tons to learn but I'm taking much better pictures now.

Charlie is spot on in regard to menu oriented focus.  It's terrible to work with, I hate it.  The focus ring on my Nikon is smooth like butter.

I use the timer feature on my camera a lot when taking photos.  It takes my shaky hands out of the picture.  I also use a tripod and just snagged one of those mini-pods but it has not arrived yet.

I started out with my Nikon set to auto all the time.  Now I have it set to manual almost all the time and I continue to get better.

I'm very happy that I bought the DSLR.  Now if only my video camera was as good!

Oh yeah, you probably have lots of links already, but here is one I used to learn about DSLR's in the beginning.  Hope it's helpful.

Learn to use your DSLR

 

~Kevin

Appreciating Modeling In All Scales but majoring in HO!

Not everybody likes me, luckily not everybody matters.

Reply 0
lexon

Camcorder

I was looking at Amazon.com a few months ago and someone mentioned a tripod with remote controls for a camcorder. Go look for sony camcorder remote control. That might help some. I don't have the links right now.

The camcorders do still photos also. No idea on photo quality though.

Rich

Reply 0
Bob Langer

30 MM

Charlie,

I just pulled it out of my bag. It is a 30 MM, 2.8 speed.

I also have a 75-300 Zoom that has a macro setting. The problem with it is the minimum focal length is 39 inches. It works great when shooting flowers and butterflies but not to good in my layout room.

As an aside I am thinking about getting these  lights. I would like to use as low an ISO as I can. I have a cable release and a good tripod so exposure time is not a problem.

Bob Langer,

Facebook & Easy Model Railroad Inventory

Photographs removed from Photobucket.
 

Reply 0
rickwade

Bob, please let us know about the lights

Bob,

The lights you mentioned in your post look to be very economical.  If you do get them can you please share your opinion of them with us?  I'd be interested to know how good the light stands are and how they work overall.  Thanks!

Rick

Rick

img_4768.jpg 

The Richlawn Railroad Website - Featuring the L&N in HO  / MRH Blog  / MRM #123

Mt. 22: 37- 40

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