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A bit of Honesty...

I think it's really good for beginners to keep this point in mind, before they set out seriously building great ambitious plans.  I consider this hobby to be "expensive" but not just in terms of the financial cost, but also in terms of time and indeed, real estate.

In all reality, this hobby DOES take a room onto itself, even if you're just building models.  To build well, it takes a workbench size space to keep things organized and free for use.  As they say, a place for everything and everything in its place is a sure way to be more productive because you can find what you need when you need it.

It is possible to build a modular layout, or to build a layout that is in essence shelves that can be easily taken down. If you want to see your trains "go somewhere" before they have to stop and reverse direction, continuous run is the best option.  If you want to watch trains of decent length beyond 3 or 4 cars get any amount of decent runtime before coming to the end of their journey, a loop is the best course of action - point to point will not provide the action necessary.

There is the idea that you can get all of this and more if one were to just change scales.  I'm of the persuasion that you don't pick your scale; your scale picks you.  My dad, for instance, would be most at home with O or larger, if he were to be a serious model railroader.  Myself, I'm full-bred HO - the details I desire are still doable, but the scenes aren't so big that it's impossible.

The possession of a spare bedroom, or a den, or other room with complete zoning control is ultimately ideal for anyone considering the hobby.  Do we all have this? No, life goes in directions that makes some things a compromise.  Some of us have to build much smaller scenes to hold off our desire for a full fledged layout, some of us have to join clubs.  And some of us have the pleasure of building a large train-dedicated building in our backyards...my would that be nice!!!!  If my [nonexistant] wife wanted a horse barn, though, I guarantee you, that barn would be budgeted and built before I even THINK about building a trainroom!!!

Not a 4x8 fan, but the alternative is...

Dear Matt,

Totally agree with the issues that a 4x8 is actually a massive space-hog,
even if we only restrict access to 1 long and 1 short side. 

However, what would the "logical alternatives" be?

At the risk of suggesting something slightly out-there, how about:

- taking a long hard look at the Carl Arendt Small/Micro Layout website

http://www.carendt.us/

- specifically the Articles such as

http://www.carendt.us/articles/missing-chapter/index.html

http://www.carendt.us/articles/secrets/index.html

http://www.carendt.us/scrapbook/page52/index.html

http://www.carendt.us/clinic/peekpike/index.html

- and then considering the simplicity,
proto plausibility throughout a range of eras, 
and suitability as a "learning layout"
(IE a layout that will force the newcomer to try their hand at a _little_of_everything_, 
INC "local switching operations",

while not immediately dumping them in the deep end of _any_ given model RRing discipline...)

of an HO 6x1 5:3:3 (or even 4x1 3:2:2) Inglenook???
(I'm assuming that we're considering someone looking at starting in HO here, based on the 4x8 launching-pad...)

If we take away the "single sheet of plywood" HO 4x8,
(and have not really asked the newcomer what it is about the world of modelling and railroads that they are chasing, and therefore are interested in "heading towards'),

what alternative would we, as the "older more experienced mentor" modeller in this scenario, offer?

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

One of the most influential layouts..........

.......... the G&D (yes, again!) started as a 4' x 8' and was incorporated intact into the two later incarnations of it. IIRC this size started as an easy way to run an HO scale set. Just go to the lumberyard, get a sheet of plywood (4' x 8' is the largest size that fits into a regular station wagon), and you are on the way. Usually one of those layouts was tucked against a corner, not set in the middle of the room. Was light/small enough to be moved around, lifted to let the family car in the garage, etc. 

I don't know

I don't know - sure there is better use of space, but my first layout, a 4x8, was fun - fun enough to get me into the hobby a whole lot deeper. I'd wager it does for a lot of other folks as well.

Surely that cant' be too bad.

And now that I have that switching layout, I wish I had a simple loop - somewhere - to break in equipment.

When you have a "toy train set", everything looks like a 4X8

My first layout was a surprise Christmas Lionel layout on a 4X8 sheet of plywood that my Dad somehow secretly built in our home, complete with a passing siding, plaster-over-screen mountain/tunnel and green sawdust grass.  Pretty cool to a –wow was I THAT young??? – 4-1/2-year-old kid.

It was followed 2 and a half years later by an HO scale train for my 7^th birthday, also on a 4X8 sheet of plywood.  I think my Dad lived out a vicarious interest in Model Railroading through me.

Our adult neighbor in my childhood years had a round-and-round HO layout, and an O layout, also on a 4X8 sheet of plywood.

A retiree neighbor later in my junior high years had a layout that started as a 4X8 that grew some sidings.

All of my references as a youngster, and any mentoring to be gained was from folks who thought the ‘ol 4X8 was good enough for anyone.  And none of them knew a whit about real railroad operations, so a loco chasing its caboose seemed also good enough for everyone.

Then for some reason in junior high I took a fancy to a switching style layout, and being old enough to build one myself, that’s what I created.  I can’t recall even what the influence would have been, other than perhaps an Atlas or Model Railroader plan, together with the vague notion that railroads did more than chase cabooses.  No longer would the 4X8 be good enough for me.

I know some of the perceived simplicity of my early views had to do with being a youngster.  I grew in both mental and “railroad” maturity at the same time. 

(Note to self: Friendly wife might take exception to the use of the word “maturity” in a Model RR context) 

There was a time where I doubt I could have told you what my Railroading objective was, other than “I like trains”, because I didn’t understand the full range of what railroading could be.

As a young adult, I went to work for the Soo Line, and it was quite a mental shift to find out what is really important versus what I thought was important to a railroad and its operations.

Point being… for those of us who have been blessed enough to “know” (read learn), there is a great opportunity and, I would argue, obligation to impart assistance, knowledge and guidance to newcomers with the gentlest humility.  They might even welcome my sage advice if given with tact!  Then the obligatory 4X8 becomes simply another option in the pursuit of a most enjoyable hobby.

Milt

G&D

Actually, IIRC, the original G&D was 3 1/2' x 6'

George

Same old rant about the 4 x 8

While I can argue about your "points" concerning space, blah, blah, blah ad nauseam, your comments have been "copied and paste" into MRR forums for years, so I won't bother or am concerned about changing anyones mind. 

Its very simple why Model Railroader continues to publish 4 x 8 layout plans, 

1) It's for beginners

2) Its cheap(er) 

3) It can be finished in a lifetime

4) It demonstrates techniques and methods to build a layout.

5) If it was called a chainsaw layout instead of a 4 x 8, everyone would "get it".

Simply put, it's a business decision by Kalmbach to demonstrate layout construction to new modelers, sell more magazines by announcing " A coal hauling giant in 4 x 8 space", is an affordable investment for the business (Kalmbach), and it will be completed in about 6 issues.

It's not rocket science, so instead of flogging the 4 x 8 theme to death, go build something and submit the article to Joe, in other words, contribute to the hobby. 

SPAM this reply. 

MR 4x8 Project Layout

While I have done a lot of apartment railroading, my preference would be for around the walls, sectional layout, versus a 4 x 8 layout.  This being the case I am enjoying the MR project layout, as there are a lot of tips and techniques which are applicable to all layout construction.

I also appreciate the discussion of the potential to expand the 4 x 8 project layout as one's model railroading interest grows.

Before you knock the potential of a 4 x 8 layout ask Charlie Comstock about an operating session on a 4 x 8 layout. (or listen to Model Rail Cast #107).

4 X 8 Beginner & Ender

I've always felt that the 4 X 8 is a great way to get started in the hobby. Depending on the scenery desired, there's nothing in the way of hard construction and you can be up and running in a relatively short amount of time. 

That being said, I believe this type of layout has also driven many from the hobby as the operations end of a tabletop layout could get boring for some after a while. At that point if the modeler can't visualize a different style of layout in the same amount of space, they might get out of model railroading entirely.

Now I know some folks have enjoyed their 4 X 8 or similar size layouts for many years and I say great for them. However, I believe they would be in the minority of those who either moved up to a different type of design or left the hobby.

Duane Goodman

MR does 4X8's because it's convenient

It's really that simple. You look at the new Virginian project layout videos and you can see how the layout has to fit in the company van, in the elevator etc. etc. So I do see why they do it but I agree there are much better uses of the space. I've just made the transition from N to HO and I'm actually using Byron Henderson's  8x10 "waterwings" plan that is based on the Virginain project layout.

Michael

It's the van

MR needs something they can haul around to shows, and something they can wheel from the workshop to the photo studio and back.

To get some value out of it for yourself, sketch the trackplan as a straight-line schematic and see how they arrange industries and switching tracks.  Make a copy of their 4x8 trackplan, cut up the separate elements and see how you can arrange them to work in the space available to you.

The wiring, weathering, structure building and other chapters have nothing to do with the form factor of the benchwork.

Orbiting Trains

Lets not forget that fact that almost all beginners (and dare I say, most non beginners) just absolutely have to have the ability to let their trains run in endless orbit.  Or roundy-roundy as some like to say.  4x8 enables this. Recent MR 4x8 designs always have a hidden staging area on one side, and their designs encourage operations that don't look like orbiting trains.  I think this is all good.  But if the beginner can't see a way to orbit ... they won't build it.  And if they don't build it, they will never realize that there is more to railroad modelling and orbiting. 

Orbiting...

But some people like to orbit...  Sometimes it is desired to just turn the trains on and let them roll. 

I operate in 1:1 scale sometimes around 60 hours a week.  When I go home and play, I might not feel like exact replication of train crew duties.  My table at home accommodates my desires. 

Venerable 4X8

I agree that for layout built for any sort of operations, a 4X8 is probably the least desirable plan. I also remember my dad pulling out the GP40, a few kit built cars, and the caboose (all with horn hook couplers) and running an oval with 18 inch radius curves. This was long before DCC, and it was always temporary, so there was just one Atlas feeder track with the two screws to wrap the wires around.

It didn't take long for my brother and I to add an unpowered turnout, and some extra track (also unpowered).

The 4X8 lets you find out if you like the hobby. I think that once you decide that you do like the hobby, you'll want to move to some other around the walls layout, long before you ever get to the scenery stage on the 4X8.

I look at this the same way I look at all the beginner hobby articles that start with, "So now you need to decide if you'll use DC or DCC to power your railroad". Anyone who is beyond the curiosity stage of modeling, will go with DCC, or some other method that allows more than a single powered locomotive on the tracks at the same time.

I would suggest to anyone who thinks this hobby is kind of cool, to get a 4X8 piece of plywood, an inexpensive DC controller, some track, and start playing. I would also tell them that if they like it, but get bored with going in circles, that I will see if I can take them to the next Ops Session I attend, so they can see what can be done with a whole room, and to see if they enjoy working a railroad. In the meantime, here's the link to MRH.

Once they are hooked, they should start looking at cleaning out a spare bedroom, and building around the walls and using DCC. They should also go at it with the intent that this is a chainsaw, and is meant to learn skills. It doesn't have to be big, and it doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to give them a fairly quick way to get trains running.

"...before one gets to scenery..."?

Dear Ken, MRHers,

Just a quick comment

Interesting, I know of many "circle work" layouts that have a lot more scenery on
(and thus look a lot more "finished and presentable"),
than equivalent "basement" or even "bedroom" layouts...

http://www.zelmeroz.com/album_model/members/klyzlr/BroughtonVale.pdf
(OK, it's only 2x4 in HOn30, but it was this modeller's first ever layout,
and turned from a "chainsaw" to use the current terms into a 7-year award-winning show veteran).

http://www.nmra.org.au/Layout_Tours/Charging_Moose/index.html
(Started life as a 2x5 with a drop-leaf "return loop"...)

Contrary to popular belief, for some modellers there's more "pull" in scenery and structures than "serious operation" of the trains...  

(and a "Chainsaw" can function equally well as a "lets try some scenery" testbed as it can a "let's build some benchwork, lay some track, wire it up, and run trains" testbed... They aren't mutually exclusive...) 

For myself, it was the "Cripple Creek Central" MR project layout that really made "model shortline ops" meaningful to me for the first time. The last episode of the "project layout" article series
(which was made into the Kalmback book "a HO railroad you can model")

is a pleasant read, and an enjoyable into "operations" from Interchange to end-of-track on a 4x8...
(and if one redraws the CCC as a linear shelf layout, the "ops premise" still holds up remarkably well... ).

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

If your older than 20 and have a job you can avoid the 4' X 8'

For the young boy/girl age 8 to 12 the 4' X 8' flat sheet of plywood with track nailed down on it can be a fantastic place to build their imagination. I know as a young boy I spent many many rainy days running trains around and around and then through the figure 8 in the middle and never had any regrets.

It wasn't until I was in my late 20's that I got away from and got the mind set that the world isn't just a flat piece of plywood. Yes I had Chicken wire and window screen wire mountains covered with plaster and painted brown for dirt and green for grass with plastic trees and snap together structures. Back in the 1960's that was normal and even ahead of the game if you had a mountain that couldn't be picked up and stuck in the closet.

I think any child would love a 4' X 8' plywood railroad, it's a great learning platform for the child with little or no money but a big imagination. I know this to be a fact because I spent hundreds of hours doing just that. Now if you older than 20 and have a job that pays a good salary then you can avoid the 4 X 8 because you should be able to afford expand, maintain and build a large shelf RR. For the average grade school or middle school student coming from the majority of small families just getting buy and that depends completely on birthdays and Christmas to buy or receive equipment and supplies to be able to expand your railroad the 4 X 8 is still the best starting point.

Dan

1) If you want to build a

1) If you want to build a starter layout with a continuous loop on a table, the easiest is not to get a 4x8 foot sheet of plywood, support it well, and build a H0 scale loop layout that sheet of plywood. 

 The easiest way to get a continuous loop on a table is to get an old (or new) 30" x 80" hollow core door, and build a loop layout in N scale.

  30x80" in N scale is the equivalent of 4.8 x 12 feet in H0 scale.

 Takes far less space than a 4x8, can be pushed into the corner without totally loosing the ability to reach things, allows wide curves, longer locomotives and cars, trains with more cars, more room for scenery relative to tracks and so on and so forth.

 An N scale starter layout with a continuous run on a table (3x5 foot or 30" x 80") is not a bad idea.

 But a H0 scale starter layout with a continuous run loop on a 4x8 is a not so good idea, since it is a fairly inefficient use of floor space, and the track plan is pretty constrained by the turn back curves.
 

2) If you just want to build something fairly fast, to dip your foot into the hobby, maybe a small shelf layout, or a module for a modular club would be smarter than setting aside 80 square feet (8x10 feet) of floor space for a 4x8 layout,

 Say an 8 foot x 18" layout like this:

 Or something like this for a slighty bigger test bed:


  If nothing else, it is often far easier to get other members of a household to accept you putting up a new shelf on a wall somewhere, instead of you in effect taking over a whole bedroom for a layout.

 By all means - build classic 4x8's if you want to. But the argument that it is the smallest practical layout for a beginner is weak.

 Smile,
 Stein

A bit refreshing. . .

This is one of the first times I have seen someone mentioning something "sucks" in a model railroad forum.  It seems like we (modelers) want to be nice and above board and not offend anyone.  I think keeping a higher level of discourse is important in any mixed group, however I have to get my model railroad "suck list" off my chest. . .

1)  3 rail O guage with trains traveling around at a scale 200 MPH and and hitting the turns with that clunking sound.

2)  Ntrak with the 3 track main line and goofy diorama like modules with unrealistic scenes.

3)  Layout tours with layouts that suck!

4)  Circus trains - I CANNOT STAND CIRCUS TRAINS!!!!!

I feel better now that I got that off my chest.  If you fall into any of the above categories, don't take it personally - just having some fun. . . besides, I know a lot of modelers who would agree with my list.

A bit refreshing II

1)  3 rail O guage with trains traveling around at a scale 200 MPH and and hitting the turns with that clunking sound.

LOL

I Hate 3x7 layouts. I mean, I don't hate them I just wish people who wrote about them developed boils. I am so sick of magazines pushing the tired "N-Scale" on a door thing. When we talk about the size of a layout, we should always take into consideration not only the foot print of the layout itself, but also the aisle around the layout that a required for maintenance and operation. That door will pretty much kill any other use for a 8x10 room. How many beginners get sick of the hobby after they realize what a fetid piece of crap a door layout is? Most N-scalers end up developing drug problems and struggle with depression.

They should do what I did and build a Z scale layout on a pet door. I was able to slip it into my back pocket and show my friends my slightly larger layout at parties.

Chris

The 4x8 is perfect for the

The 4x8 is perfect for the beginner. The first railroad won't be very good. It will be trash canned after the owner discovers what the owner likes and dislikes. I moved to a house with my dream basement in 2004. I built a 4x8 layout to act as a test ground to see what I would like hoping even to incorporate into the dream layout. I documented it on my website:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/

After building the 4x8 I realized what I wanted couldn't be done in my lifetime so I moved on to virtual railroading.

The 4x8 teaches the owner many things.

Thank you if visit.

Harold

A bit refreshing III

Re: a bit refreshing III

"Take a bath and quit smoking"

I find the point about smoking quite valid. Should be stated when visiting. Non-smokers probably would like to know in advance. A smoker's basement usually stinks and ruins the whole experience.