Soledad Canyon Line

How important was the connection to LA after the cutoff was completed? Were there any passenger stops between San Fernando and Lancaster (steam to 1960s)? In the steam era, what were the important water stops between Newhall and Palmdale (I'm assuming Lang and Ravenna)? If used, where were helpers added/removed?
 

The Palmdale Cutoff drastically reduced the importance of Taylor Yard in LA as most westbound traffic from  the east of Colton to destinations north of LA was routed over the cutoff. Traffic via Soledad Canyon was cut way back as a result, reducing the need for helpers via that route and eventually ended up in the elimination of Taylor Yard.

From WWII to the end of steam, steam helpers were run through from Bakersfield to LA and reverse except for swing helpers over Tehachapi proper which were added/subtracted at Bakersfield and Mojave. The dieselization of freights over Tehachapi generally eliminated the need for swing helpers between Bakersfield and Mojave since a 4 unit set of F's was roughly the equivalent of a pair of AC's on the grade. Through helpers still operated between Bakersfield and LA until steam helpers were eliminated. For the record, I lived in Mojave for a couple of years as a kid in the early 50's.

From the standpoint of water stops, for passenger trains, that would be Mojave for eastbounds. With a road engine and a helper, the engines would take turns doing the work between Mojave and LA (except where the power of both engines was needed - e.g. the 2.34 percent grade between Palmdale and Vincent). Coming west, Mojave would usually be the only necessary water stop for passenger trains for the same reason since the engines would take turns doing the work.  

If you want significant traffic density on your Soledad Canyon line, you're better off modeling it prior to the opening of the Palmdale cutoff.

BTW, I rode the "World's Fair Daylight" in 1984 between SF and LA. 4449 was watered in Mojave and run through to LA without a water stop, IIRC. Coming out of Palmdale with 13 streamlined cars, we made the grade from Palmdale to Vincent unassisted. Probably couldn't have made it unassisted if the auxiliary tender hadn't gotten a hot box shortly after leaving San Francisco and got removed from the train. That would have added an additional 150 tons or so to the train weight. 

Mike

Soledad Canyon Addendum

A few personal recollections.

As I stated in an earlier post, I lived in Mojave for a couple of years as a kid in the early fifties (1953-1954). As a result, I got to see some of the last of steam. One day, our family was going to see an uncle who lived in Altadena. The shortest route from Mojave was over the Angeles Crest Highway which intersected US 6 near Vincent. It was also the last memory I have of AC's in helper service. The Angeles Crest Highway crossed the Soledad Canyon line right around Vincent. We had to stop for an F7 powered freight which was being assisted by an AC cut in a few cars ahead of the caboose. The AC was working all the way to LA, which was SOP at the time. 

Some time in the spring of 1954, I accompanied my dad on a trip to LA from Mojave. We rode the "San Joaquin Daylight" into LA. IIRC, we made a stop at Lancaster, but not not at Palmdale. The next stop after that (again, IIRC) was at Glendale. The train was handled by a 3 unit set of ALCO PA's. Returning from LA, we rode the "Owl" which was pulled by a 4 unit set of F's. As I recall, the "Owl" at the time was all heavyweight at the time and we rode in a Harriman 60 foot coach. We had dinner in the diner and even after more than 55 years, I remember that I had a chicken salad sandwich and a coke. We remember strange things. Other than Glendale and Mojave, I don't remember any stops, although we probably stopped at Lancaster as well.

When we moved to Mojave, I remember seeing a doubleheaded steam  powered passenger train (all heavyweight) somewhere between Lancaster and Rosamond. I believe it was an excursion rather a regularly scheduled train from what I later learned of SP passenger train schedules. The "Owl" and the "West Coast", as well as the "Tehachapi" were all scheduled over the line at night and the only daytime passenger train would have been the "San Joaquin Daylight".  Signaling at the time between LA and Mojave was done with lower quadrant semaphores. Incidentally, there was a scrap yard not too far west of Mojave and I recall seeing a lot of old freight cars in it. I don't think that the scrap yard exists any more, but then again, I haven't driven between Mojave and LA over what is now CA 14 so I can't say for sure. 

One of the features of the Mojave desert in the fifties was a rather dense population of Joshua trees. Unfortunately, those have largely disappeared since then due to the spillover of pollution from LA. There are still Joshua trees, but they don't look healthy and they're pretty sparse. In Mojave, the current airport (and airplane graveyard) was a Marine air base. As I recall, the Marines were flying F9F Panthers out of the base. I don't know when the Marine air base closed, but it would have been after we left Mojave.

Other than the scrapyard mentioned above, I don't remember that there was a lot of industry between LA and Mojave except perhaps in the San Fernando Valley. 

Hope this helps.

Mike

One more thing

One of the earliest Spielberg movies was a television movie called "Duel" (1971), much of which was filmed in Soledad Canyon. In at least one scene, you can see an SP freight train, so that would indicate that there was at least some traffic in Soledad Canyon for a while after the opening of the Palmdale Cutoff. I don't think the movie was high enough budget to warrant the rental of a freight train. 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067023/

You can see the train about 6 minutes into this clip:

Mike

Apparently, I can't shut up today

Passenger trains LAX to Bakersfield in the 50's.

1. West Coast. This train ran between LA and Portland until 1949 when it was cut back to Sacramento. It was discontinued in 1960. During the later steam years it would have drawn an AC (4-8-8-2) between LAX and Bakersfield. Afterwards, it would have drawn F7's/FP7's.  Train numbers were 59/60.

2. Tehachapi. Late in the steam era, this was essentially little more than a mail train. It was off the schedule by 1955. IIRC, it was the last steam powered passenger train over Tehachapi. Train numbers were 55/56. I don't have a copy of Signor's "Tehachapi" handy to confirm it, but I believe the last steam run between LA and Bakersfield was handled by MK-5 2-8-2 #3249. 

3. Owl. LA to Oakland. When I rode it in 1954 it was all heavyweight from what I remember. It was also powered by F units between LA and Bakersfield although it may have received a GS steamer north of Bakersfield at the time. Prior to dieselization of the LA-Bakersfield segment, it would usually draw an AC. Over time, streamline cars were added until it was all streamlined except possibly for head end cars. Usual power would have been F/FP units in various combinations. Train was discontinued in 1965 or so. Train numbers were 57/58.  

4. San Joaquin Daylight. During the early postwar steam years, the train might have a pair of MT 4-8-2's (including some that had the cab and tender painted in Daylight colors) or it might have a GS-4 or a GS-6 with a 4-8-2 helper. Late in the steam era (almost at the end of steam on SP), it would be pulled by a GS-4 north of Bakersfield and would have F/FP units between Bakersfield and LA. In the last couple of years before AMTRAK, it would be pulled by SDP45's. Train was discontinued with the advent of AMTRAK. Train numbers were 51/52.

Except for the "San Joaquin Daylight", the most common steam power on SP passenger trains in the later years between LA and Bakersfield and were the AC cab-forwards. SP did try out an AC on the SJD in the early 50's to eliminate helpers, but the engine threw a rod at (reportedly at 75 MPH) out on the desert and they didn't try that again. The other passenger trains, being night trains didn't really require the speed capabilities of a GS or MT between LA and Bakersfield. However, they would have received MT's or GS's north of Bakersfield as the low speed pulling power of an AC wasn't a requirement. Incidentally, when the Owl or West Coast was running especially heavy, it was possible to see doubleheaded AC's on passenger trains.

EDIT: Some SP passenger train consists can be found here (with the caveat they're biased toward the late 40's). http://espee.railfan.net/passenger.html

Mike

There is a lot of industry in San Fernando.

The Lockheed plant is next door in Burbank.  I think there were a number of specialty machine shops and avionics companies there to do sub-contact work for Lockheed, as well as for the civilian aircraft at Burbank airport.  I'm not sure when it opened, but G.M. had a plant in Van Nuys where the Camaros & Firebirds were assembled until it closed in the late 1980's or early 1990's.  I think my 1987 Trans Am was built in the Van Nuys plant.  Budweiser also has a brewery in Van Nuys near where the G.M. plant used to be.

I'm not sure how much freight would be shipped to Lancaster.  Maybe supplies for Edward's Air Force Base and the China Lake Navel Weapons Station in Ridgecrest.  Those locations would probably be un-modeled off line.

Auto Plants In the LA area

 I'm not sure when it opened, but G.M. had a plant in Van Nuys where the Camaros & Firebirds were assembled until it closed in the late 1980's or early 1990's. 

Russ, the GM plant in Van Nuys opened in 1947 and closed in 1992. Here's a link to LA area auto plants:

http://www.laalmanac.com/transport/tr05.htm

I'm not sure how much freight would be shipped to Lancaster.  Maybe supplies for Edward's Air Force Base and the China Lake Navel Weapons Station in Ridgecrest.  Those locations would probably be un-modeled off line.

Edwards AFB is on the BNSF (formerly ATSF) line from Mojave to Barstow. Given that SP and Santa Fe were intense rivals, I doubt there would have been much interchange between the two except when absolutely necessary. Any traffic originating on the Santa Fe in the LA area (or any other area served by the Santa Fe) to Edwards would have been routed to Edwards on the Santa Fe if at all possible.  I don't really believe there would have been much traffic routed to Edwards over the SP with an interchange with the ATSF in Mojave.

My dad worked for Northrop at Edwards 1953-1954 and again 1955-1958. Except for a year spent in Tucson, we lived in Mojave, Palmdale and Littlerock (about 10 miles from Palmdale) until we moved to Northern California. 

At the time (early to mid 50's), both Palmdale and Lancaster were rather small although I remember that Lancaster was more populous than Palmdale. Now the situation is that they might as well merge into Landale or Palmcaster since each of the two has grown enormously, they're roughly the same size and it's now hard to tell where one ends and the other begins. This fulfills the prophecy of Antelope Valley boosters in the 50's that the Antelope Valley would grow tremendously. Whether or not that's a good thing remains to be seen.

Mike

Great Stuff!

Thanks Mike and Russ for the information. I think I may need to adjust a few things to keep operating potential high - perhaps scale back the upper portion to Palmdale and expand more into the SF valley, focus on Mojave only, or look for another line all together. I remember seeing SD45s and Tunnel Motors coming through Soledad when we visited Saugus Speedway, but this was before I was heavily interested in modeling trains, let alone SP, so I wasn't ever sure about the amount of traffic.

Cheers!
Marc

Edwards AFB is on

Edwards AFB is on the BNSF (formerly ATSF) line from Mojave to Barstow.

Hi Mike,

There's an Edwards spur at MP-410 (CPSP410) at Denis between Palmdale and Lancaster. The spur is listed on an '07 UP profile, so I'm not sure whether it existed in the days of SP.

Cheers!
Marc

You learn something new every day

Hi Mike,

There's an Edwards spur at MP-410 (CPSP410) at Denis between Palmdale and Lancaster. The spur is listed on an '07 UP profile, so I'm not sure whether it existed in the days of SP.

Cheers!
Marc

I didn't know that. My guess is that it did exist during the SP days and it would offer a door through which  SP could route traffic into Edwards. What became Edwards in the late 40's was built in the 1930's, so it would make sense that the SP would have been able to route construction materials in that way.  

Mike

Marc, you don't need to have switching at both ends.

I think you could have a very satisfying layout that would be fun to operate if all of the industries that you switched were in the San Fernando Valley, and the desert was just run through scenery.  Basically loads would come off of staging (Mojave) down to either be spotted in the San Fernando Valley or go through to L.A. (staging).  Cars loaded out in San Fernando would go north to staging (Mojave) for destinations either to the north or the East, and some loads might originate in San Fernando and go to L.A. staging to simulate S.P. traffic going through Colton to Indio and points East on the S.P.'s southern mainline.

Start with a couple of shelves and add water...

Thanks Russ. I've been formulating some concepts for what goes where (no actual track, but a basis for operations), and things are shaping up. However, I would like to include Mojave, and this would mean a triple-deck design. The SF Valley would be on the lower deck, with the main coming out of staging from Burbank Jct, and then follow the outside walls to Sylmar. A center peninsula might allow me to include a North Hollywood and Van Nuys spur for various items and the GM plant, and the route to Sylmar would provide avocados, boxes, and stuff from Bendix.

At Sylmar, the route would jump through a tunnel and helix to the next level at Newhall, and continue along a second wall to Saugus where citrus could come from Filmore. From Saugus, the line would make a long, lazy climb to the 3rd deck via one wall and the center peninsula and come into Palmdale. The route from Palmdale to Mojave would follow the outside walls, and then enter staging on the center peninsula (above Soldedad Canyon). Most of the action on the top deck would be at Mojave, with ATSF sneaking-in from behind a backdrop (from Barstow), and trains from the Lone Pine branch coming from the main upper staging area (on their own track, however).

There's a small 5' x 10' pocket on one side of the room where a "mole" operator could work cars from the Mojave airfield. However, there's no place for a suitable duckunder, but I could provide an extra exterior door for entering and exiting. (The building will be modified anyway just for the layout, so no worries adding extra doors and things). The run-around outside to a pocket on the layout isn't very convenient, but I don't envision much work going on there anyway. It's not all that important considering there's plenty to do in the valley on the lower level.

The room size is slightly larger than 21' x 24', which gives just enough room for 42" aisles and 24" shelves. The peninsula should be large enough to allow 10 or so tracks in a race track arrangement for staging above and below the layout. I'm not quite sure if a 3rd deck is possible though, so any input on deck height would be greatly appreciated. If I keep the lower deck at 38", the second deck at 53", and the top at 65", this gives me a rail top to rail top separation of 15" between lower and the second deck, and 12" between deck 2 and deck 3. I'm 6'-4", so the bottom deck would be at my belt line, the second deck at roughly chest level, and 65" just below my chin on the top deck.

I haven't yet calculated grades, but the only real concern is Soldedad Canyon, as everything else is more or less flat on the outside shelves. If Soledad were limited to a one-time-back-and-forth "nolix" on one wall, the grad would be about 2%. With the tracks extending into the peninsula, the grade should be considerably less, possibly in the 1.25~1.5% range (still a nolix, just stretched).

My ideas above would be to start modeling only two walls representing Newhall and Saugus using some temporary modules, and then test shelf height deck separation. A second phase would be the San Fernando and Sylmar shelves directly below, and together these two areas might be all I need. Open staging could exist along the 24' wall on both levels, and both modeled areas I believe are enough to keep me busy for a couple of years, and if I get an itch to expand, at least I have the "big plan" thought out so I would have to guess at what goes where. Essentially, the entire early sections would be a big "U". Also, except for the Fillmore connection at Saugus, the track in these areas didn't change much, so I can fiddle with both steam and diesel to see which one holds most interest. I might also find another area to model all together, or reduce my plans to a smaller pike.

Adjusting a couple of shelves is a whole lot easier than ripping out a room full of benchwork should I have any regrets later. I'll draw up the Newhall/Saugus concept and post some images...

Cheers!
Marc

Preliminary Phase 1

Here's my idea for the middle deck in phase-1:

A larger and clearer version can be viewed here.

Sidings are just for illustration...I'll have to dig around to find the actual track profile (it looks about right, however).

I really don't need 24" width for the Newhall shelf (18" would probably do it), except my plan was to eventually model Mojave directly above on the top level. I also need to adjust Bouquet Jct, as the wye takes up more room than I would like. Perhaps just a spur (without the wye) heading off behind hills to staging?

San Fernando tunnel entry looks like it'll work nicely, and the orientation of Newhall allows for a few of the old town structures still remaining. Overall, I'm starting to like the things are turning out with plenty of room to expand.

Cheers!
Marc

Marc, with a 21'x24' room/building

how much railroad could you get into a single level layout in N-scale utilizing peninsulas in the center as well as shelves around the walls?  Where is the door in relation to the rest of the room?  Does the center of the room need to be left clear?  I just did a quick sketch on some scratch paper of your room. 

If you oriented your layout so that peninsulas came off of the 24' side of the room, you would have space for 2 24" wide shelves plus 2 4' wide peninsulas.  The shelves could be the full 21 feet long and the peninsulas 17' long you would have a run of 89.5 feet without factoring in any curve radius circumference distance.  You would have 4 1/2 foot wide aisles and a 4 foot clearance between the end of each peninsula and the wall.   Put a backdrop down the center of each peninsula as a scenery divide to double the distance of the run on each peninsula.

If you narrow your aisles to just over 3' and narrow your shelves on the peninsulas to 3' allowing 18" to each side of the center view block, you have room for 3 peninsulas which gives you a run of 102' without factoring in the additional circumference of curve radius.  Depending on where the entry door is located the shelves on the wall could also be bent around to end at both sides of the door allowing even more mainline run.

In short, I think you have the room to make a single deck layout with a second level below for staging that would get everything you want in the layout. 

2 Levels Might Work...

Thanks Russ. Further tinkering, I believe I can get everything I need on two levels. The plan above would still apply (some adjustments needed, however), which would be the lower level set at 45". Sylmar to Burbank Jct would also be on the lower level 3" down @ 42" (the San Fernando tunnel would make only one turn down to Sylmar), with Sylmar, San Fernando, Pacoima, and Burbank Jct on a peninsula extending from the right side, where the tracks would drop down 5" on a helix to staging on the same peninsula.

From Saugus, tracks would climb 2% in a nolix fashion along the top of the plan (North wall - tunnels 18 and 19 at the turnback), where it would meet Palmdale 12~15" above Saugus. Lancaster would be on the bottom of the plan (South wall), followed by Rosamond and Mojave on the peninsula above Burbank Jct/Pacoima, and then into staging - possibly under Mojave on the peninsula. This would place the areas between Palmdale and Mojave @ 60" or so, and with staging below Mojave (5" below), should still allow enough room above Burbank Jct @ 42". All this and without any duckunders in sight.

The more I think of modeling this area, the more I want to back-date it to the early 1950s or late 1940s (tons of cab forward action). The only issue I'm having is with the wye at Saugus - I would prefer there not be one due to space (eats up peninsula area for Mojave), and having trains flow from Fillmore through Saugus toward LA. A simple lead would suffice, however, if the wye was important for turning helpers out of Soledad, then it'll need to be there (I suspect that Mojave could also have its wye in place if the yard were set at an angle).

Cheers!
Marc

Wye Not?

The more I think of modeling this area, the more I want to back-date it to the early 1950s or late 1940s (tons of cab forward action). The only issue I'm having is with the wye at Saugus - I would prefer there not be one due to space (eats up peninsula area for Mojave), and having trains flow from Fillmore through Saugus toward LA. A simple lead would suffice, however, if the wye was important for turning helpers out of Soledad, then it'll need to be there (I suspect that Mojave could also have its wye in place if the yard were set at an angle).

From a purely operational standpoint, the wye is non-essential if you're modeling the late 40's through the early 50's. Right around WWII, SP started running helpers straight through from LA to Bakersfield. Short helpers were added at Mojave westbound as required and were removed and turned at Summit (about 1 mile or so east of TehachapI). Eastbound, the short helpers were removed and turned at Summit and there would be a through helper all the way from Bakersfield to LA.  That being said, you're still going to have to turn helpers someplace whether it's in staging or out on the modeled part of the railroad.

From what I can see, the wye would be useful to turn trains between operating sessions that headed into the Santa Paula branch and need to return. I notice your minimum radius is 20". You could probably go down to 14 or 15" radius for the curved legs of the wye, which would save you some space.

You might want to consider investing in John Signor's "Tehachapi"  http://www.amazon.com/Tehachapi-Southern-Pacific-Santa-Fe/dp/0870950886 if you don't already have a copy as it contains a gold mine of information that would be useful to you.

Mike

It may not be prototypical, but you could use a turntable.

A turntable to turn helpers would take less space than a wye.  The other possibility is to have the helpers run light in reverse back down grade.