cheaper short term....

If you want a cheaper short term solution, you could get away with 3[6] or 6[12] tracks on each end.

You have your inbound track, your outbound track, your overflow track, and... your cabinets with drawers where you put all the cars when they're in "staging" right below the staging tracks!

You'll have infinitely more and cheaper room for rolling stock with large drawers, though this may not be what you're looking for.  It does mean the cars get handled a lot more.

Solution for the problem...

Dear Ken,

"2n+1" was a semi-humorous way of Tony saying "you can rationalise thru it all you want, but it will always seem like there is not-enough-staging".

Questions:

1 - Do you have every intention of keeping _all_ equipment on the layout during a session,
OR do you have plans for a "mole" or other "realtime staging-shuffler" during the sessions?

(If the First, then you had better have enough staging tracks to handle _ALL_ of the equipment sitting on the layout.

If the Second, then you are apparently OK with people handling/adding-and-removing equipment from the layout in realtime, and thus can accept "drawers/cabinents" and other "not on layout" area as forms of "staging")

2 - Are you working to a reasonably strict timetable/schedule/train-operation-sequence,

or is everything on the RR a "extra, runs as required, any train could run in any direction at any time"?

(If the First, then we can
- fairly tightly work wout how many trains need staging at any given moment, at any given point on the layout,
we can work out if Eastbbound A departs early enough to leave a staging track clear for Westbound B, OR NOT, based on predicted schedule.
- with the caveat that, just like a real RR, sometimes operations don't go quite to plan, thus leaving us with the potential for a "jammed staging yard"

If the Second, then the staging yards have to be far more flexible, with far more "excess capacity" or "headroom" designed _IN_,
just in case a given op session gones really strangely, and you end up with _all_ of the trains in the East Staging yard, and the West staging yard is virtually empty...)

3 - are the staging yards designed as "run thru", "turn-around reversing-loop", or "stub-ended"?

(My first HOn30 layout, Broughton Vale Tramway, had enough "onscene stub staging" for 3-trains + a Railcar. Worked a treat for a small NG logging in the "operations" sense, and flowed perfectly at shows.

My next layout, an On30 logger, used a single "run thru" cassette system to effectively provide a infinite-width "staging yard", which worked great for "one train at a time on the main" shows, but would have been labour intensive for true "operations".

As described HERE https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/a-solution-to-a-problem-mk2-elephant-tracks-12188911 I have been involved in a layout that performs both as a "show layout" and a "club operating" layout. The "op scheme" for this layout is _very_ timetabled, and as such, while the train _sequence_ does not vary, the time-between-movements does. As such, a "2-track run-thru staging yard", which handles both ends of a modelled mainline can be used to stage 6-trains "elephant-style". IF however the proto-op-scheme required the trains to be called on a _variable_ order, then widing out the yard to provide 6-discrete staging tracks would be called-for...)

I hope this helps you nut-out the requirements for your particular staging/layout-config/op-scheme needs...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

My staging

I have a staging yard to interchange design.  the north end of the layout is an open staging yard representing Reading, PA.  Trains originate and terminate there.  Inbound trains may have to turn their power and put their cabooses on their outbound trains (inbound to outbound).  At he other end is Wilmington which has a classification yard and interchanges with the B&O and PRR plus two industrial branches.  All of those are used as staging (but for cuts instead of trains).

I have 7 tracks at Reading (set by the width of the area).  I always leave one track open as a running track.  My timetable calls for 3 freights and a local to originate out of Reading.  That leaves two tracks open, one of those is an arrival track for the passenger trains.

If I had more staging tracks I would be able to prestage additional trains or make some extras.  So far staging has been adequate with N + 3.

Don't forget to factor in # of operators.

I tried looking over your thread on your multi-level layout, but didn't see the size of the layout or the room, or how wide your aisles are going to be.  Providing more staging space than the number of trains that can be operated in a session due to limited operator space is overkill as well.  How many operators can you comfortably fit in your layout room?

The more the better

No matter the formula, add as many as possible. I recently reworked my double ended staging yard making four of the tracks "double length" to provide the most storage. The trains will be stored nose to tail.

Lots of coal allows me to reuse some of the trains so it cuts down on how many I may need.

Also add some stub end storage tracks if possible. This gives a place for cabs, power and that special train.

Just like always with us modelers, we always want " just a few inches more I could have......"

Randy uses "Elephant Tracks"?

Dear Randy,

How do you handle the "elephant tracks"?
Do you have some system to keep the "head to tail" trains moved up to the head of the staging track?

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Not Overkill

n is what you think you need

2n will actually account for what you will need, which factors in storage, and all the extra trains you will want to run only after the staging yard is finished.

+1 is the run through track, which everybody forgets, or uses as storage when actually built.

Ive met him, and I will definitely take his word as law in the future. But thats just over-obsessive me. I, in this case, would completely agree, there is no overkill. Trust me, and him, and you will once you have it built.

Elephant Tracks

If the yard hostler has time he will move them up, otherwise the road crew will get yard limit permission and move up to the yard signal.

This solution isnt perfect but the only one I had for a narrow space and needing more staging. The entire staging yard is 9 tracks, but one short one kept clear for switching and run around movements.

I originally thought of having only coal trains staged, but after working thru some ideas it may be freight too.

"Elephant Tracks"

Is not really any different mathematically. Instead of doubling the number of tracks, he's simply doubling the length. Similar effect except that serial staging is slightly less flexible in having trains parked behind each other, so they have to be parked in a specific order in order to

a) get trains out in the proper scheduled order

b) clear trains for inbound trains.

Just takes a bit more planning with positioning the trains pre-session.

Only 3 Tracks?

I take it you haven't operated a large layout before?

In order to run ~20 trains/direction during a session, those 40 trains need to be set up (and parked on a track somewhere) prior to a session. The swapping of stored cars in and out of shelves or drawers to build up the trains is part of the pre-session setup.

Some layouts are designed for continuous operation where some of this happens during the session, but this actually requires a slightly _more_ elaborate staging/fiddle yard setup. You still need a sufficient amount of arrival/departure tracks, although the total number may be able to be reduced slightly, but you also need some makeup/breakup/sorting tracks and a comfortable area for the fiddle operator to work, with full access to the sorting tracks and the car storage (whether on shelves, drawers, boxes, or other storage/fiddle tracks.)

Sometimes for heavy-traffic layouts some people will also re-use similar consists (eg. for unit trains) to reduce the number of staging tracks as well as the amount of equipment required. (On our club layout, the Canadian is fortunately scheduled in such a way that only one direction of it will be seen on the layout at once. The train still combines/splits in two at the midpoint of the layout, so we only need 2 10-car Rapido Canadian sets instead of 4 to represent this operation.)

Time between trains...

No matter how many trains you want to run, time in + time out = length of time between trains...

Yes indeed, three tracks, each one about ten feet long, at either "end" of the layout, for a total of 6 staging yard tracks in all.

If it takes an hour to run through the layout at speed, then you start the session with all three tracks loaded and ready to go to the other direction and stagger them, 5-10 minutes between trains.  This means that all three tracks are clear after 15-30 minutes. If your drawers are sorted by the train they go into the layout by and ordered [blocked] where they get dropped off on the layout, and you do not worry about the sorting [aside from proper drawer] of those cars that have left the layout, then your operators have 5-10 minutes to dispatch [put away] the train that came in and 10-20 minutes to put their train onto the tracks and pull out of the yard onto the layout.

If you're anticipating ten car trains, I don't see it unreasonable to expect an average re-railing time of 15-30 seconds per car.  You may also have a dedicated staging yard operator who assists in getting trains in and out of the staging yard [boxes], or the person from the last run helps with this task.  That's now two people working a train which means you can be running 20 or 30 car trains out of your drawers.

That's 6 switches and 60 feet of track, and at $30.00 per switch and 20 pieces of 3' flex at $5.00 a piece, you have a grand bill of $280.00 for my staging yard in materials.  Space wise, my staging yards take up [1"+2"+2"+2"+1"] = 8" x 120", for a total of 960 square inches - or a nice comfortable 10 square feet, if you space it out. Your staging yard at 24 and 48 tracks is about $1120 and $2240 in materials and takes up 3840 square inches [40 square feet] and  7680 square inches [80 square feet].  Granted, the cost of the drawers and the cabinets may outweight this expense - though it's not difficult work to make drawers yourself... Be it what it may...

Granted, my schema assumes you have 10 feet of length for the thing.  Depending on how your layout loops back on itself, this may not be an issue.  The SASME layout, for instance, has one large yard that is divided down the middle as West and East.  You leave out of one end of the yard heading west, and terminate in the opposite end of the same yard - except, in leaving the yard, you are now headed east aimed at the yard you left.  Passenger trains return once they terminate, so they do not get boxed.

My operating experience is limited to the SASME layout, it takes about 45 minutes to run around the entire layout.  it has virtually no staging, though we use the reverse loops tunnels for such purposes.  Cars leave the layout by being transported into these plastic filing drawers we have in, a pair of four drawer plastic drawer organizers, which easily come out so we can move the drawer to where we have to take the cars off the layout.  We typically have 8 operators per run session, though we could easily accommodate at least 4-5 more.

http://www.facebook.com/media/albums/?id=135901899810555

I went ahead and sketched out a theoretical model of what this would look like:

I think best in 4 x 2 foot units, so this is a 4 x 2 foot space.

Basically, the very top "shelf" contains the three [I snuck in a 4th] staging tracks.  These tracks would be about 50"-55" high at track level - or in other words, a very comfortable height for railing a train.

The rerailers are on the end where the outbound cars are held; the Inbound cars [coming in from the layout] are all on the left.  Now that I think about it, the next session will have the outbounds on the left and the inbounds on the right, so rerailers would be ideal at BOTH ends!!  The inbound operator brings his train in and puts it in the next available Inbound drawer, and the outbound operator does likewise on his empty track.  4 tracks in ~12" means there's a 3' track spacing.  Once the Inbound operator finishes stashing his old train, he either racks and stacks for the next outbound, or he starts racking and stacking fir his next un, if there is an open track and the other operator does not need assistance.

The shelf below it has three or four cubbies per unit.

The cubbies provide a space for timetables, carcards, or throttles, broken cars - whatever stuff needs to be put "out of the way"

The countertop itself provides a very convenient workspace.

The unit then has drawers, each one roughly 16" x 40" x 4", sliding on those handy kitchen cabinet drawer rails. 

To make the drawers, you'll have to spend $100.00 for the Ryobi router with table and another 10.00 for the bit.  If you put handles on each drawer, this might run you another 1.00-3.00, depending on your sense of designer tastes.  They'd be made out of either dimensional lumber or even cheaper, 1/2 or so plywood. A router 1/8" wide by 1/4" deep and about 1/4" from the bottom edge would provide an adequate channel, and these pieces would frame a piece of 1/8th" masonite or similar particle board bottom.  Since all the drawers are to be the same size, you would only need design one and then cut the lumber all accurately and then assembly line the process - do all the cutting, all the routing, all the assembly, attach all the rails, done.

The drawer cabinet rails make it easy to simply lift up and remove the whole shelf from the cabinet.  Once removed, the drawer can then be placed on the counter top, and then cars be moved from the drawer to the rails or vice versa.  If this is too daunting, then just leave the drawers in the slide rails!  Perhaps the length would need to be reduced to make this work better, or the drawers doubled and reduced to 22" in width. 

Now there would likely be a third unit added to my two units, to gain a total of 12' linear countertop.  We have a space for the inbound operator and a space for the outbound operator.  This last space would provide room for a third person - a car tweaker, if there were a small tackle box full of kadee couplers and truck parts and a tool box, or a decoder tweaker, if you placed a programming track in this location, or a cleaning station, if there were a locomotive wheel cleaning kit in one of the drawers, or in a cubbie right below this third unit.  Of course, all the drawers on all units would be made as close to consistent as possible, so you can put them in different spaces without affecting their operation in the slides..

Now I put dotted lines where it may be "too low" for a good drawer.  For the bottom 16-24" of the unit or so, you may consider using it for storage.  Leave it open, so people can stash their car carrier boxes that so often appear at operating sessions.  if theft is a problem in your area, you could do a bottom pair of double doors each about 24" x 24" or 16" x 24" over the expanse and put a locking mechanism on it, so any visitor who wants to store their extra stuff while they are running stuff can lock their unused travel buddies up while their on their run.  Anyway, this gives you more uses for this space which is quite undesireable for trains.

It's a thought...