LED Lights

Thomas Edison noted that he didn't fail 1,000 times in inventing the light bulb - he just succeeded in identifying 1,000 ideas that wouldn't work.  Thanks for posting this, because I think it may indicate that it's possible to light 50 model railroad STRUCTURES for $7 - about the best deal going (give or take a few spliced wires). 

Roger

Cheap LEDs

Yeah, Roger, I can't help thinking that the lights are a great way to get some cheap LEDs for various projects.  They also sell some multi-colored strings, which would supply red, green, yellow, blue, etc.  And like I said above, they make decent locomotive headlights - these are "warm glow" white LEDs, meaning they're perfect for modeling incandescent headlights.

That reminds me, I need to put one in an F7 I'm working on.  Maybe I can use the fake bulb (clear plastic) to make a new headlight lens.

LED Lights

I decided to try out 800lumen LED light "bulbs" in my layout room to see what they looked like and if I liked the color any better than the CFL's I've got in there.

Pro: They're on immediately.

Con: I've discovered that a 100W equivalent CFL is about 1600 lumens, so while the LED's appear just as bright to look at, the room overall is rather darker. The LED's are also about $25-30 a pop.

I've been looking at adding lighting anyway, so this is just an encouragement to do so.

LED's?

Maybe I'm wrong, but those lights look like the common Incandescent Christmas Tree Lights not LED's.

Ray

They're LED's

They really are LED's.  We are so used to seeing the miniature that they have added plastic "bulbs" to disguise the actual LED.  I suspect that the "bulb" also serves to refract light and make the lights glow instead of being a point source.

Weird

Weird.

Ray

Try other applications

I have several strings for recycling (someday) ... and a few things to keep in mind.

1. LEDs are Not diffused lights... they are directed. Thus, great for headlights and signals. 

2. Some "Christmas" strings have lenses to diffuse the lighting.  These would be good to use as interior lights in buildings.

3. As applied to the valence in the OP... would the light be more directed (downward) if All LEDs were mounted with the face directed down?   (I know... lots of unintended work!) 

Is there and IKEA near you?  They sell LED lighting strings at reasonable price.

4. Your Voltage may vary.  As applied to recycled LEDs, you may produce highly desired results by experimenting with voltage and resistor values. (Newcomers... Don't forget resistors!)

5.  If LED strings interest you, and you watch your budget, look for end-of-season discounts.  (but you knew that)

   I have taken a few LEDs and mounted them in tight spaces for headlights... by Filing down the molded case!  The devices become quite fragile... but with little practice you can modify the shape & size of the case to fit truly odd spaces.  Several of mine were made "short" or "flat" to fit atop a weight that I chose to leave alone.  Just examine how the cathode/anode are oriented prior to going to work.

Modifying LED's

I have done a similar thing where I cut down the rounded top of an LED so that ti works better as a light source for fiber optic strands.  I smooth the cut with 1200 grit paper.  As long as your cutting & filing do not expose/damage the anode or cathode as noted.

Perhaps too much light is

Perhaps too much light is bleeding out and not enough is being directed down, try turning your valance upside down so the lights sit inside it and cover the now outside lip of the valance with white paper to help reflection, this may direct the light more effectively.

"If Edison had a needle to

"If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search. ... I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety percent of his labor." Nikola Tesla

I mention that because 120 volts in structure lighting sounds like a fire hazard to me. Be careful or your layout might end up like John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid Railroad, without the legend.

With lighting, a few standard LEDs doesn't cut it for layout or room illumination. It takes some seriously powerful LEDs or large arrays to accomplish that. It's expensive to use LED lighting but doable. An example of LED lighting done right is Bruce Chubb's Sunset Valley. He recently installed LED lamps and floodlights. The daylight color temperature and high brightness that he now has makes for absolutely amazing lighting. It really needs to be seen to be believed. Pictures just doesn't do lighting justice.

-Marc Robertson
SLIQ Electronics

*edit: John Allen. I don't know where I got Paul from...

Agree on 120 volts!

I agree that limiting the use of house current on a layout when lower voltages will do sounds like a good idea.  The idea of using the Christmas lights for structure lighting was intended more in recycling the white LEDs, which can be powered individually with very low voltage and appropriate resistors.  Even wired in the Christmas light string, I suspect the voltage is lowered either with a resistor or through series division by the number of lights (that wonderful quality that makes all the lights go out if one fails, so you spend the rest of the season trying to get all your tree lights working again).  I'm a firm believer in leaving house current at the power strip and powering the layout functions with "transformed" voltage when at all possible.

Rog

That's John Allen, not Paul

Just a small correction, that's John Allen who modeled the Gorre & Daphetid, not Paul Allen.

Paul Allen was one of the co-founders of Microsoft and he also currently owns the Portland Trailblazers ... and definitely is NOT a model railroader as far as we know.

LED in strings

I have a string of 60 led christmas lights that run on line voltage.  They appear to be in a series string.  This is also indicated in the paperwork that comes with them.

I could not find any resistors in any of the wiring and the leds in the string can be removed to examine.  They look like standard 5mm packaged leds with no internal resistor.  My ohmmeter will turn one on. 

I found the light coming out the long axis of the led to be much brighter than that coming out the side which would partially explain the lack of brightness in the test.

Given the forward turn on voltage per white led is about 4v this gives 30 leds in each direction which would be about 120V with no resistor needed.  The 4.8W limit indicates about 40mA which seems a little high to me although some leds have continuous currents of 100mA or more.

Valence lighting is normally 120V so I have no problem there, BUT 120V does NOT belong on the main part of the layout. 

Salvage the leds and use lower voltage and series resistors on locomotives and structures.  Note the power dissipated in a series resistor can get hot enough to melt plastic so use the lowest voltage available.

Yeah, I know, too much technical bs.

Terry

Another possibility

I have used these LED light strips for direct and indirect lighting in my house but have not tried them in the rr room (still under construction).

These are 12V light strips roughly 12 inches long, come in various configurations and mountings and can be combined together if a longer string is required.(More lights bigger power supply)  Also if they are too long or bright they can be cut.

They are relatively cheap and you can use any AC power supply transformer you might have lying around as long as it is 12Vdc out and  the proper connector. (The web site has detailed information on power supply connections)

They will also custom make cords and multiple strings if required. Check them out... http://www.cordsplus.com/

Kris

Have you tried rope lights?

My daughter had a string of rope lights wraped around the banisher in her apartment. The stairway was dark. They never got hot to the touch.

I tried rope lights

Ikea is where it's at...

What was the failure mode?

What was the failure mode? Not bright enough? Wrong temp color? Not disputing the failure, just curious as to what was the problem so that I may learn.

Totally

Aw, don't give up so quickly!

As I see it from your photos, you really don't have a valance at all.  A valance is the part of a model railroad layout (or a window, bed, etc.) that HIDES things you don't want to see, like undesirable glare from naked lamps or LEDs (and can also help direct the light towards the model instead of your eyes).  It's the vertical part of the lighting arrangement that blocks the lamps from your normal visual field of view.

Try this (it still may not work out but at least you'll have done due diligence to the experiment):  1) take a pencil or something round with a sharp end and punch holes in rows in the cardboard from the BOTTOM side so the rough edges are on the top;  2) push the LEDs through the holes from the TOP side, avoiding pushing the rough edge through the holes to the bottom; and  3) fold the edge of the cardboard DOWN that is presently folded upwards.  That folded down part will actually be your valance.

Make sure the holes you punch are small enough to hold the LEDs firmly vertical.  As someone previously wrote, the LEDs put out nearly all their light through the round end, not the sides, and having them held pointing downward, by the holes they're forced into, will help with that.  And the folded down edge of the cardboard will block the glare from the LEDs towards your eyes, making the light on the surfaces below appear brighter by comparison.  Like I said, it STILL may not work, but it isn't a lot of work to make sure you've done the experiment well and covered all bases.

Also, something you may not have considered is that most 120V AC LEDs cannot be dimmed with ordinary lighting dimmers.  Of course this is also true of most CFL and tubular fluorescent lamps, so it might not be a big issue.  This could be important if you want to produce gradual dusk and dawn transition lighting effects.  There are ways of dimming LEDs but it requires some thought to find the best way for the application.

If the loco you're trying to put LEDs in for headlamps are a tight fit, you'd probably be better off buying some "surface mount" LEDs (lead-less "chip" LEDs).  They're not that expensive, although it can be a bit difficult to solder on leads.  If you have pretty steady hands, it isn't too bad if you work out a jig to hold the LED and the wire for you while you touch the soldering iron to it to make the joint.  It's probably easier than attempting to file down a leaded plastic encased LED, and the results are incredibly TINY lights.  There have been several articles about doing this in the model RR mags, including some in MRH.

BTW, there are several ways of limiting the current through LEDs, and considering the low price of the Xmas string, I'd bet they used the absolute cheapest way, which is that there's probably just a capacitor in the plug, not a resistor.  Capacitors limit the current somewhat like a resistor, but they also shift the current out-of-phase with the voltage so there's little heat produced unlike what you'd have with a resistor.  A slightly better way of doing it would be to add a full-wave bridge rectifier and filter capacitor so there'd be very little flicker.  Since you found the flicker to be objectionable, I'd guess they saved a little more money be leaving those niceties out.

Sorry for the loooooooooong post!

Barry L

Thanks, Barry

I've been amused to see this old thread pop back up.  Barry, your comments definitely make me think that I did not try everything practical to make the lights work.  However, I've since purchased some florescent fixtures that I will be using as soon as I get around to building the valance and top shelf.  The LEDs have been stored for use in structure and locomotive lighting.

Even with your suggestions, I do not think these cheap LED strings would be sufficient for layout lighting on their own.  They are simply not bright enough, based on my experiences.  It would be interesting to see what could be done with them, but I suspect that the work and modifications needed would make more conventional forms of lighting more cost effective.

I'm thinking of

using a led strip or row pointing inwards behind and hidden by a very low (1-3")view block along the front edge of the base board. These to act as as "filler lights" to compensate for the relative front-side dimming of the models due to the regular lighting being mostly from overhead.

My top front reflecting valance helps, but it's that last 10% I'd like to correct for.

SMD Lighting Strips

I can imagine that these Christmas lights are not bright enough. They weren't designed to light anything, quite the opposite. They were designed to give subtle accents to a Christmas tree. But, what about some SMD Lighting Strips? They are rather large surface mount LED's attached to a ribbon with all of the resistors and silver trace wiring in place, and also most are sticky on the back. So all you have to do is stick them in a straight line on the bottom of a valance. And they run on 12 volts too. These lights are designed to broadcast their beam at a distance, because they broadcast their light all in one direction. And you can cut them into 4 or 5 inch lengths and use them as internal lighting in passenger cars. I've seen them for sale on many sites, and on eBay for about $25, a 15 foot strip with 150 of the 5050 sized devices on it. These are more expensive than your Christmas tree lights, but are more likely to succeed. They make dimmer circuits for them as well, if you want to simulate dusk and dawn along with your fastclock.

I've seen LED light fixtures at the local home and hardware store, Lowe's, that are made to fit under counter and they would be perfect for a valance! But they are very, very expensive, with a 4 foot fixture costing about $60! I'm not sure what sized SMD LED's they use, but they do look very similar to the 5050 size.

Also, painting the bottom of your valance jet white, or even get a spray can of silver paint, and that should help keep the light moving toward the layout.

So I think your idea is sound, it's just that the LEDs you used are not made for broadcasting light to any distance. Check out EBay and you might find some good deals on these 5 meter, or 15 foot, lengths of SMD lights in both bright white and warm white colors. $25 is not too much money to invest to find out if they will work, and I believe you will have a far greater chance of success. And they also make far, far better lights for engines and passenger cars than any Christmas tree light!.

Russell Kingery

LEDs and the layout room

I know model railroaders like to do things their way, and I know most of them can do something faster, better, or cheaper than those that have done something.  But in this case . . . LED lighting, stop trying to re-invent the wheel.

The answer is simple . . . LED ribbon lights.  They have all the advantages one seeks for layout operation and none of the negatives.  Their advantages are too many to list here, but they are the best thing since sliced bread!

Try LEDwholesalers.com and you'll find more variations than you can shake a stick at.  You can't do any better as far as a light source goes.

George

hohon3@hotmail.com