Can you post...

a sketch of the basement?

Here is a rough draft of the basement and some of the track plan

... for the Interim P&A Layout.

The area circled in pink is where the "door": would be located.

Ken L

Flip an Island...

Here's what you can do to maximize your mainline run while minimuzung the necessity of this bridge: Flip either the left or the right Island, so that it comes off the north wall of the room instead fo the south as currently drawn.

This will give you two "Spur track" ends on the West end of the room, which you could use for such scenes as an engine servicing facility, a dock scene, or any other scene where the industry is on the end of a spur.

This will give you one other really cool thing: you'll be able to assemble a wye for the entrance to one of your peninsulas, where one route goes down the peninsula and the other services this spur area.

Door issue

If you absolutely want to keep the present track layout, I would suggest a pocket door so it can be opened and see what's going on, and mount the tracks in a vertical moving bridge running on drawer tracks with a microswitch to kill power when lifted.

Door

I would think a solid door at the bottom of the stairs would be a bad idea.  The people coming down the stairs would have to  have some sort of interlock before they opened the door.  It would have to sense trains several feet away from the door to get them stopped in time before they entered the room.  Plus you would need some sort of warning in the aisle before you opened the door into the room.

You would have to build a "landing" for people to stand and wait for trains to clear.

Solid door

The more I think about it the solid door won't be practical.  If you look at your plan the door opens IN, that means the hinges need to be on the inside of the room.  If you used a solid door, that would mean the door would have to be on the aisle side and the tracks on the stair side.    So 'detecting the trains for people coming down the stairs, won't be a problem,  they can see them.

If you want all three levels to hinge together fine, but I wouldn't use a solid door.

Given me some ideas to think about...

....

@Benny ... Though your solution is a good one, it won't work in my situation.  I want to at minimum a 400' mainline run.  To accomplish this, there are three modeled decks.  One at 33", one at 48", and one at 63".  Not the best of situations, but to get the length of run I want, in a "going through one scene only once" layout design, it's the only workable solution. 

@pipopak  Your idea about using vertical tracks is an intriguing one.  If I were to go with that route, I would forgo the door all together.  The whole idea of using the door would be a stable swing bridge for all of the decks.   The issue I have with that kind of solution though, is the time it would take to lift all the separate bridges in order to enter/leave the layout room.  It could not be lifted as one assembly, because there would not be enough vertical clearance as the upper most deck (upper deck staging) is 6" below the ceiling.  I am looking for something that is stable, secure, and relatively "quick" and easy to function.  The solution must allow for the tracks to quickly align as close to perfection as possible every time it is closed. 

@Dave... The reason for the idea of the door was to ensure the entire assembly moved together as one solid unit, thus when closed ALL five decks (two staging ,three modeled) would be in alignment every time.

I am open to mechanical solutions other than using a door, but whatever solution that is devised, must be able to move all five decks at once, and not one at a time.  I have been considering the possibility of having the upper and lower deck staging being a lift out section and only having them to re-stage the trains in between operating sessions, but this would constrict the number of trains available during an op-session.  For regular freights and passenger trains that run on a Timetable Schedule that is fine, but since this is a Coal Hauling Railroad, there will be several Coal Extras, and I had hoped to "recycle" the Coal Extra's during an op-session so instead of having to have 6-8 actual trains it could be 3-4 that would appear on the railroad more than once, even though the Train Orders would be for a different Train Number.  Without being able to go across the entrance, however, would prevent that. 

As always, this hobby if filled with compromises.  But when those compromises lead to an end result that will not be enjoyable for me, then the whole exercise becomes rather pointless, so there is a limit to how much I am able to compromise. 

Ken L

Even more reason to Eliminate the Door...

Three decks [plus 2 staging decks and 400' of run??  That's an even bigger reason, I do believe, to eliminate the door altogether by flipping an island.  You'll still get a long run by flipping an island.  You might even be able to look into Mushrooming the design too.

It would also give you potentially two or three levels of spurs - that's six areas where the railroad is effectively Point to point.  tie these points to the yards on your mainlines and you have some good potential for operations - though I'd start being more concerned about operators being stacked on top of each other.

Back to the Door at hand

This is one of those cases of...Its your Railroad so....

I think a door will work ok. I have seen a half door used in this manner and it worked out great. Im a builder by trade so take EVERYTHING I write here with a grain of salt. I Think I can build anything! I would use a Steel Door (Exterior ) with one precut hole in it for the lock set. I think using a dead bolt may violate the Building Code. Remove the Hinge screws on the Jamb side and replace all of them with 3" screws. NOT 3" drywall screws as the heads are a little to small ( don't ask! ). The shelving for the tracks need not be built very heavy so adding extra hinges might not be necessary. I think a door with a large glass window  would be ok. ( All the better to see you with " ). Extra sliding latches might not be needed as some better lock sets have very little if any slop and hold the door tight. Look around and get a door with 3 hinges.

As far as the tracks go, Cut them at 45 degree angles on the swing part and it will be much easier on the rolling stock.

Rob Teed

Couple issues with what you're suggesting Benny...

....if I had the vertical clearance I would definitely do a Mushroom design, but the basement is only 86" tall. 

As for flipping one of the peninsula's, that doesn't work for a couple reasons.  But mainly because I need the one long "shelf" along the back wall (top of the drawing) to facilitate a large 8 track coal mine complex.

I'm not saying what you are suggesting is a bad idea, it just does not "fit in" with what I want to include. 

The operating crew will most likely only be 6-8 people (1 Dispatcher [located in a small room outside the layout area], 2 Station Operators [ each one sitting at the end of each of the longer "dead end" aisles], and 3-5 train crews).  The interim P&A will have no "yards", there just is not enough room to model them properly.  There will be staging yards at both ends.

The whole purpose of this particular layout is to:

A) Build SOMETHING now (since the building for the final P&A will not be built for another 4-5 years)
b) Use the Interim P&A to teach local operators how TT&TO functions
C) Test certain benchwork construction methods that I at least have never seen done before  (it's taking bits and pieces of various ideas and coming up with one of my own "creation so not totally original)
D) Get a regular operating session so hopefully the Interim P&A will be a catalyst to help motivate other model railroaders to start working on their's again!

There are many "compromises" to the interim design that I do not like, but since this layout is more or less a "chainsaw" layout, and it is being built with portability/relocation ability, when the final home for the P&A is constructed, much of the work done for the Interim P&A will be saved.

So with all that said, i'm still left with the issue of leaving the layout design footprint as is, needing a way to have a type of swing bridge to quickly move out of the way and return to enter/leave the layout room, and have it reliably align with exact precision to prevent derailments.  It does not need to be the door idea, though that would be my first choice because i don't see any other way of moving all three (or five) track sections at once.  But I'm open to other ideas on how these sections might be moved, just not changing the footprint.  Changing the footprint really is not an option because as I said earlier, it interferes with some of the "Givens" I insist are included in the Interim P&A Layout.

Ken L

How many operators do you plan to have?

What are all of the little rectangles in the aisles in your drawing?  Are the walls at the peninsulas already installed?  How much of this is built already?  It looks like you may have room for operators, but you have not allowed for anyplace for a crew lounge (unless it is upstairs), and you have no landing for people to wait on when they come down the stairs and have to wait for the trains to clear.  How is the traffic going to flow on three levels and two staging levels?  I can see the potential for you to never have that door completely clear of trains during an operating session.  Finally, what are your plans for emergency egress in case of a fire?

Answers to questions...

Forgot to "hide" that layer in the drawing.  Those are the overhead lights for the aisle.



No, however, I seriously doubt I am going to change the layout footprint.  It has taken me over two years, and I have had several different versions of the benchwork footprint, and this one is the best.  There was a previous version of the P&A (see other posts by me to see the pictures of it before it was all taken down) and the walls were perpendicular to the two walls that will be built in this plan.  This footprint not only allows for the length of run, the ability to have the coal mine facility which is very large, while maintaining a 3' minimum and 5' "normal" aisle width. 



None.  I am only now finishing a remodeling of the home, and one of the final projects is to remodel the stairway entrance.  I have set the 1st Week of October as the time when actual construction of the interim P&A will begin, though 90% of the materials to construct the layout are already acquired and ready to be used.

It looks like you may have room for operators, but you have not allowed for anyplace for a crew lounge (unless it is upstairs)

No Crew Lounge.  Though this would be something that would be nice to have, it is a luxury for which there is no room for with the Interim P&A.




Actually the lines representing the stairs I only added to give an indication where the stairs are.  There will be a few feet at the bottom of the stairs for a "landing". Whether that will be sufficient, i'm not sure.



THAT is one of my concerns.  Regardless how the track sections are "moved" out of the way to enter/leave, this is going to be an issue.  Though, the time table will not be jammed packed so that every town has a train in it.  I want space in between trains so traffic is not bogged down. 




There is only the one entrance/exit from the basement.  And with the design of the house, there is no way to insert a second egress point.  Oh and before anyone screams, no this is NOT in violation of the Fire Code.  The basement, even with a layout, is considered an "unfinished/non-living space" and a second egress point is not required.  Or at least it wasn't required when the house was built and therefore "grandfathered" in.

 

Like the idea of the glass exterior door....

Thanks Rob, that is a good idea, if I do have a solid door, then having a window, so people can see through, to see if there is a train on the tracks, AS WELL as people seeing if they can open the door safely and not hit anyone.  I probably will want to use an exterior door with a wood core to more easily fasten the "shelves" to the door.

And yes, I plan on having the end of the tracks/benchwork to be at a 45 degree angle.  THough the very end will most likely be blunted to prevent any chance of someone being "impaled" by the end.when the door is open. 

As for the deadbolt, I prefer using something like that because there is no chance of movement.  A regular latch does still allow some movement, and the slightest movement of the door can cause major derailments!  The deadbolt fits into the brass piece and it is very snug.  As long as it is unlockable by turning the deadbolt on either side of  the door, i can't see why it would be a fire code issue.  There are interior doors with locks on them.  It will take just as long to unlock a deadbolt as it would if there was a lock on the actual door know. 

Ken L.

Staging yards....

.... with trains on them will be a MAJOR issue. Every time the door is going to be opened the 2 yards will have to be cleared. I think that is the hurdle that will eventually force a major rebuild.

Staging Yard Tracks only for "restaging"

If I include the staging yard level tracks in the "swing door/bridge" they only are used for the few trains that would be recycled during an op-session.  Just like the modeled levels, it is only a single track.

And I DO HOPE to "rebuild" the P&A in hopefully 4 years when certain finances become available and I can build the Final P&A Layout!

Ken L

Anchors can be Deadly...

One level versus 5...

If it was one or even perhaps two levels being bridged, I'd say go right ahead.  But when you say Five levels, well, that's FIVE times as many problems as one level!!

Sometimes Anchors can be dangerous.  In this case, you're trying to include a feature which will take two years to engineer, one year to build, and one year to tear back out after you realize why it doesn't work.  And you're demanding that it functions reliably well, too; this all simply does not go together!

Now let's think about this a bit.

If you flipped the left peninsula up, then you would still have the majority of the wall for your coal mine.  Further, you would have a place where people can land,and a loungish area for prepping engines and other such operations.  I went ahead and did some dabbling in Paint...

Now this will require some redrafting in terms of your plans.  But I do believe you'll find this much more to your liking in the long term.  I compromised with you; while you could indeed turn back the mainline and go into a tunnel that takes the train through a Nolex under the coal mine complex [or a helix in the peninsula] you could also have one bridge on one level, dotting across your aisle area. 

Now I've drawn the very top layer all around, and somehow I bet your mine is on the bottom layer - no worries, redraft the route and cancel out the parts that don't make sense.  but on the very upper level, you ahve the kind of real estate to allow for a wye leading towards what should be staging along the East wall - if you have industry or city planned for this area, you could offset the city scene backdrop or the hill backdrop outline 6-12 inches and put the staging tracks behind the city.

You might notice what this little redraft allows you to do to the areas to the south of your entryway - you now have a good place to put your DCC electronics; you also have space to place visitor's boxes, or to place their engines and such on the layout, whereas my little two track spur would be on the very upper level.  if that little alcove is an access area, well, the lower two levels of the layout would not go into this area, though the shelves where "layout" might have been would now be available for placing boxes form the ops session, the aforementioned DCC system, and perhaps on the mid level a workbench of sorts for quick fix coupler and wheel jobs.

You may ignore that tie between the coal yard and the east wall - I was imagining the east wall as staging, and this tie would allow you to pull your coal trains into the coal yard.

I know you really like the peninsulas like they are, but for a layout that is a chainsaw, the amount of energy necessary to do a five level door simply isn't productive.  Your operators will not enjoy it, and neither will you!

Floor

Ken,

what is the floor made of? Is it level and smooth?  If so, you may wish to run a couple of wheels on the inside of the door swing to help keep it tight.

I'm visualizing basically a "bookshelf" bolted to the lower half of a door or a dutch door with heavy duty wheels on the outside to keep it level and stable.

I think in this case, I would simply use half a door (to avoid blocking line of sight), and load the damn thing up with three or four hinges. Mount your benchwork (bookshelf) to it, run rollers on the outside, and a couple of bolts to ensure it locks in place.

Wrong side of the door

I think you are missing the point I am making about using a commercial door.  On a commercial door the hinges are on one side of the door.  In this case the hinges would have to be on the inside (layout room side) of the door so the door would open into the layout room.  In order to function properly the hinge points have to be inside of all the tracks and roadbed.  The hinges on commercial door are almost flush wide the surface of the door, so the tracks couldn't be on the same surface as the hinges, they would have to go on the outside (stair side) surface.

The tracks would have to be on the OUTSIDE of the door, the side opposite the layout room, in order to close, to "plug" into the layout.  If you use a commercial door, the door will cover the tracks when viewed from the layout room.

You can build a offset that removes the hinges from the door and puts them on a plate attached ti the edge of the door, moving the hinges inside the layout, tracks and roadbed and put the door surface on the outside of the layout, but what you are really doing then is building a custom door and just using the commercial door as a stressed skin panel to which the track/bridge sections are are attached.  All the hinge/latch stuff would have to be custom built.

Door Was PITA

Years ago I lived in a house that the previous owner had installed a solid door at the foot of the basement steps. It was a true PITA mostly because there was no landing. This made the door knob too low when coming down the steps. Even if the knob had been higher it was very clumsy to open and close the door from the steps side. And forget about trying to carry something down the steps and open the door at the bottom. Needless to say, the door was removed in short order. Doors at bottom of steps - bad.

Floor is concrete and is sloped...

...so  i don't think having rollers on the ground will work.  HOWEVER, your idea might work if instead I hang a curved track on the ceiling so the assembly swings and when open is not just hanging out there.  Building it as a Half/Dutch door also is a good idea.  I will have to sketch it out to see how that might work.


@Alan...the door will be a few feet away from the stairs, so there is a landing, and the only time the door will be closed is during an op-session.

@Benny..I appreciate the time you took to draw out your idea.  Your proposed footprint however would eliminate over 60' of mainline, would eliminate 8 staging tracks, and cause problems in gaining track elevation without the use of helices, and I HATE THEM!

@Dave..i don't mind if the hinges are on the inside.  Infact, the "original" idea with the solid door was to just have the surface on the inside of the layout room painted black (with yellow stripping so the door can be easily discerned) and having the trains enter a tunnel while traversing this swing bridge.   But if I go the route Scarpia suggests, I might not use a traditional door at all.  Since I would have to build a custom door anyways, I am considering not doing it as a door per se, having the three (or five) shelves built on a rigid frame using heavy duty door hinges.  Perhaps instead of regular door hinges (with the pins which tend to wobble over time) gettings some of the more expensive cupoboard door hinges.  I will have to investigate those next time i'm at the Big Orange Box (which lately seems to be my second home!)

Please all continue to give your thoughts.  Even if I don't agree or go along with them, they do cause me to rethink things, and come up with new ideas.  I do see just getting a regular interior door and mount it at the bottom of the stairway (even with a small landing) wouldn't practically work. 

Ken L

 

Door swing...

Another thing I just realized is that the whole thing will not work because the center of rotation for the whole assembly (the door hinges) will cause the layout sections to jam on the hinge side. Only way to go around this is to put the hinges on a post at the inside of the train room. Draw the thing on a piece of paper, then draw the swing arc wit a compass and you will see it right on.

I must be getting older, brain takes longer to kick in.

How would it jam?

I took the entire "assembly" (i.e. the lines drawn for the "shelf/door" and grouped it, then using the hinge point rotated the entire group by 1 degree to see it "swing" and I don't see where it jams?  The hinge will be along the fascia edge.  What am I overlooking/missing?!

Fabrication

I'm hoping everyone understands what dave1905 is saying regarding the hinge points. They would need to be inside the room, inside the room from the furthest rail from the wall. If one rail over this "bridgeaduct" is seven inches from the wall, all the hinge points would have to be equal, and at least seven inches plus your hinge clearance from the base wall.

I would make certain the rough door opening was square and plumb. I would think towards a metal framed full door and frame that was much like one of the security screen doors. Kind of like a metal fence gate. A rigid frame built to fit your opening, with a metal - framed "door" inside of it with the hinge points all in one vertical plane. The hinge points would all be a set distance from the bottom of the subroadbed. I would look at an automobile hinge for ideas. When fabricated, the hinges would probably be a heavy - wall tubing cut into short lengths. A matched pair for each point. When welded, all hinge points should be aligned with one long rod through all of them to ensure smooth operation. Then use vinyl bushings inside each one. 

I wouldn't permanently attach each 'bridge' to this framework. I would mount the frame / door then build carriages for each level that were adjustable vertically and horizontally, because I'd expect this to be an area of high maintenance.

As far as a latching system, I would look at the simple mechanism used to close 99.9% of the truck caps in existence for ideas. I would come up with some type of lighted signal on the upper stairway for anyone coming down that

"the 'door' is locked, press this button for access"

and then have a bell or whistle alert the operators to clear that area and let the visitors in. You could have the same system inside the room to be certain everyone knows someone needs to leave. A "bridgeaduct" built like this would be see-through like a fence gate, adding to it's safety. A vinyl blind could be put up behind the 'door' (on the stair side) and a backdrop of sorts painted on the inside. You could have "revolving items of interest" hung on the walls on the stairway and landing. By revolving I mean you change it often enough to keep the same people entertained again and again.

In an emergency situation when everyone needs to get out, the trains won't matter. Just get out!

Now that I brought up that vinyl blind idea for a backdrop, I like the idea! I'm not sure I've seen that used. A different backdrop could be painted on both sides, to change a scene, or to use on two sides. If I see these commercially, I'll expect my royalties!

Hmm, using a storm/screen door...

..was not something I had even thought of.  Thanks Jeff.  That might be the answer.  IIRC, they have one solid hinge from floor to the top of the door, it's all metal so it wouldn't warp, it woudl be solid.  It would have an opening to see through.  This idea will have to be strongly considered as well! Thanks again!

Ken L