Corner

After reviewing the pics this is what I would do:

* shorten the warehouse, probably by 1/3rd

* move the tracks a little bit (something like 1 1/2" at the end) to the right

* make the warehouse more wedge-shaped

* put a mirror to reflect the warehouse end and track. Mirror not higher than warehouse end. Probably as wide as the space tp the second track to the right. Then put anothe building where you put the one at the right to hide the mirror end.

* put a permanently parked freight car at the track end right against the mirror

For all the world it would look like a hole in the wall. All this because I feel there is not enough distance to pull the forced perspective old trick.

Looks Awesome!!

Just my 2 cents...I'm very new at this too, but it looks like you got it. I am glad you included the link to the flats as well. I have been looking for them. Nice Job on the warehouse, is that a kit?

Thanks and keep the pictures coming, I am very interested in the outcome.

Thanks,

Ernest

Thanks for the comments and

Thanks for the comments and encouragement guys.  For operational reasons the structures and track configurations are staying as is but the idea concerning the use of the mirror is a creative one.  Thanks for the suggestion!

The warehouse itself is 3 Walthers Commissary buildings bashed together to form one long structure.  I still need to add some detail to the structure before I can call it done.  the 1st third of the building is a cold storage warehouse so I still have to finish up the coolant machinery on the roof.  There is work to be done yet!

Rich, bear in mind that I

Rich,

bear in mind that I haven't done this, so this is an un-educated guess.

I think the issue is that most forced perspective (at least in the way I'm thinking) the smaller scale items don't have an immediate "full" scale item to compare against. I'm thinking  of things like an N-scale farm in the background of an HO layout, for instance.

I wonder if there is a way to generate a spatial gap (like you've done with the alley) between these items to lessen the direct comparision.

I think the best thing you

I think the best thing you could do is get a level picture of an alley scene, where the picture is looking right up the alley, and put that up on the wall. this effect would be made even better if a tall building goes against the backdrop  to the right, with a gap where the "alley would be.  Then the picture of the alley would only be viewable if you were looking "up' the alley over the cars.

If there are buildings on either side, you want them to be roughly the width of the tracks - so the tracks could have gone up the alley at one point, but they were removed perhaps.  I'd think you'll rarely see buildings in the way of a ROW - so the tracks would be on the ROW/easement!

The warehouse doesn't need any modification, it's nice as it is!!!

*Edit* I played with it a bit in paint...

The yellow lines are easements/ROWs.  The green area is the Alleyway; The red shapes would be a photobackdrop type of a city scape; the green alleyway would line up with an alleyway in the photobackdrop. The red blob on the wall to the left is that one backdrop building flat you put up against it - bring it out to the yellow line.  Now this leaves the obvious issue of the flat image on the wall that stays oreintated normal to the cars as you rotate your field of view - So i introduce this tall maroon building - who knows what it does or what it's for - to the scene - thus, effectively I can only see the alley if I'm looking over the cars.  too far to the right, I cant see it at all - and a tall flat building would cover the wall behind this tall building as well - unless there is one on the backdrop roughly HO scale.  There's a couple cityscape backdrops out there you could play with.

Now initially I missed your alley, but then I spied the ramp and realized you might want this area to be mentally accessible - so I put in the ROW between the backdrop and the maroon building. The Maroon building would then need to occupy the yellow area, thus producing a consistant alley parallel to the backdrop as well - if you moved your warehouse to the left along the backdrop a little, and made the alley wider [1.5-2 semi trailer widths], that might work out better.

Effectively, then you have your corner.

Another Attempt

Thanks for your thoughts guys.  The biggest challenge is definitely creating visual separation between the scale objects and the reduced scale ones.  To give you an idea of the "feel" I'm going for here is a picture of the Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal team track yard around the time I am modeling.  I'm not looking to recreate this scene (there is no warehouse structure for one) but I am trying to capture the feel. 

You'll see in the picture below the gray area that I want to keep open for vehicle access (the driveway will run off the front of the layout) so that trucks could load/unload directly into box cars if necessary as well as have space for an overhead crane to unload flat cars.  I also want to have a small amount of room for forklifts to be able to access the open air ramp between the two tracks.

So taking Benny's idea about creating a view block with a building, here's my fat fingered attempt at playing around in Paint.  The Red building is another low relief structure (3" deep or so) with blue skyline flats tucked in behind. 

I really like the idea of the picture of the alleyway at the end of the far track.  I'm going to try and find something to tuck in there. 

The yellow spire is a shrunken down image of the Savings bank building I mentioned in my original post.  I'm able to move the warehouse another 2" or so to the left which gives me some breathing room to work with there.  It should give me enough space to add another layer of buildings for depth.  The challenge now is to get a full scale HO flat to fit against the back wall to shield the lower portion of the backdrop from view.

I appreciate the help!  And Benny thanks for taking the time to put together the mockup.  Your time is appreciated!

~rb

No problem - and I still

No problem - and I still think you're going to want two buildings, including one very flat building and one decent sized building, to properly hide the view form any angle but the proper angle.  And that narrower alley scene in the other direction, well, now that will be nice too!  The flat building along the backdrop should be jsut thick enough so that I the viewer looking down the alley will see barely none of the image - while looking down the main alley, I'd see the edge of this building flat at most. If your backdrop picture also had the sidish view of a large brick building, I'd match that side up to the rightmost corner of the large flat, so you at least get the 3D effect of this building maximized.

Of course, i don't know what your plans were for this area.  In that marron block outlined by the yellow tape, I do think a full structure will giv eyou the most effective 3D-effect.  You could use one of those buildings under demolition, even, if you don't want the building to be there "permanent."   And another alternative, it could be the large building houseing the logistical saide [staff, paperwork, management] of the trucking company that serves your warehouse along with other warehouses in the district.

Building flats and backdrop corners are indeed a challenge, but I do feel the more of them you attempt, the better you'll get at doing them.

Perspective

The key issue here with your layout picture and the prototype is eye level. On the layout pic you see everything from high above the scene. Now go on your knees and have your eyes more or less close to coupler level and you will see the difference. There is no way to cheat on that. Take a couple pictures from coupler level or a little higher and compare with the ones you posted already.

Every layout I saw with convincing forced perspective had the following features:

* some empty space between the farthest track and the backdrop

* Usually layout table set higher than usual

* forced perspective was always higher than the area in front of it.

A 2nd attempt

After thinking about the mockup I posted earlier I thought breaking up some of the right angles might help hide that big right angle I can't do anything about!  So using some modular pieces I threw together a  partial 5 story warehouse (I need to get some more pilasters before I can finish the thing) that is angled relative to the backdrop and also took a side piece to an old City Classics Main Street Kit and pushed that as far back into the corner of the backdrop as it could go. 

The angles of the building make it appear that there is an alley way "just out of view" around the corner of the building and also reinforces in my mind the notional alleyway that runs into the backdrop just behind my warehouse facility.  This angled wall technique is one that John Pryke highlights in his book (linked because I realized I hadn't in my initial post) and I think it works fairly well here. 

I lose the visible alley that Benny had suggested earlier but in person I feel as though it suggests there is more city out there than the viewer can feel.  I've also taken a printout of the Savings Bank Tower and taped it in place.  While I need to print it to a smaller scale (I think, no?) the overall shape works well in that corner to give a feeling that there is "more out there" than what can be seen.

Here are a few shots from different angles (Pipopak - I'd already put the layout to bed for the night when I read your post; I'll get some track level shots tomorrow).  I'll take any suggestions or criticism.  Fire away! 

Ironing out that corner ..

Hello

This thread was great to follow!

I know this is late in the process, but I would suggest that the backdrop corner is changed from a 90 degrees sharp corner in the sky portion of the backdrop (above the buildings) to a rounded corner.

It is difficult to set the lightening for photographs of that area so that the sharp corner of the backdrop is invisible. Then it is better to prepare the corner by making a rounded corner...Just my two cents!

Best regards from

RF I think your new version

RF I think your new version (with slanted buildings) is an improvment. fwiw...

Charlie

Ground Shots

Thanks for the encouraging words Charlie!  I think it's closer to where I want to end up and I think it will look a little better once I add some additional background buildings.  I may play with it a bit today if I have time but I'm not revisitng coving my backdrop at this point.  I' m way too far along for that and accepted the idea of 90 degree corners and the limitation inherent when I started building.  Here are some ground level shots as requested by Pipopak:

Don't ignore the left

I think you need something behind the commissaries. My eye snaps to the big, emply space above them. If you had some background above the buildings both the left and the right will look better.

In addition this article may help. In the October 2005 issue of Railmodel Journal the article "Theater Stage Set Techniques" by Kurt Mirisch. He writes about using the concept of stage design on a model railroad layout.

Here is a link!

Views

OK, here is the deal: you can have a very nice realistic view to run some trains around and some limited operation from a eye level view OR you can operate to your heart;s content looking from a higher point. For the first one you don't need forced perspective as proved by your latest pics, it can't be seen from a eye level position and you don't have the space in that particular corner. From an operator's point of view your attention will be attracted to the switching action right under your nose regardless of the background..

The only other thing that might work is a skyline of flat building cutouts (not more that 1/4" deep), not very tall (maybe 1 or 2 floors higher, and just a few of thet) and some water tanks, or chimneys, antennas, billboards, etc, the kind of rooftop stuff seen at every city. This background should show everything somewaht undersized, like 1 block away but not more. Back at the city picture you posted, note that it was taken from a high building or from a plane. Now imagine yourself standing on a medium high rooftop and picture what you may see from there. Not a whole lot!.

So, IN MY VERY OWN PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW, I would leave things as they are now. Looks great from an operator's perspective, and when the desire surges to see things from a lower plane for extra realism, just get a chair or stool and operate from there. This is the best idea I can offer so far.

A little more progress

So I had a couple of hours today and made some progress on mocking up the corner.  My strategy from the beginning was to start in the corner and work out from there. 

I added a couple of building flats above the warehouse.  The two tall buildings (they were in the corner in my initial post) were mounted on card stock and the longer red warehouse on 3/16" foam core.  I taped the two apartment buildings to the back of the warehouse and that combined with the differences in the depth of the backing materials gives me a good sense of depth.

To the right of the warehouse shell I put the white three story warehouse flat high up on the backdrop and then added a low relief warehouse in front to hide the fact that the building is floating in the sky.  Nothing is attached permanently so I can move things around but I like the overall look.

I think you just about have it Rich...

Rich,

I think this last set up is just about about spot on, I've been watching each mock-up and this one has popped out as the most realistic and the one that has best taken away that 90 degree corner.

The only thing I would do is add another flat relief above the left hand side of the commissary building, it only needs to be 6"- 8" in width and only a couple of floors higher.  And I think this will even out the scene nicely and balance both sides.

The only other option I think you have (and this is only personal preference) is to round that ninety degree corner, even if only a couple of inches in width and eliminate that vertical seam/join.  That way when looking at the corner it actually won't exist, so therefore if you put your building flats to the left and right your eye would only be drawn to the switching action, and to the left and right buildings.  

That taller building on the join is actually somewhat of a feature and naturally draws the eye to the corner IMHO, so if the corner was rounded and not really there with buildings higher to the sides, I think this would naturally draw the viewers eye away from the corner.  I think you need to fill that gap in completely with latex caulk/gap filler so that there is nothing visually to draw the eye above any of the buildings.

Keep going mate, your just about there, and you also helping me out by doing this first......

Jas...

Basement Humidity

It's funny you mention that seam Jason.  It only developed in the past couple of weeks as the weather has warmed up.  My mistake was in not sealing all sides of the masonite before I put it up.  As a result I get a lot of expansion/contraction since the basement is only marginally climate controlled (it gets into the low 50's (~10C) in the winter down there) and that corner popped with the spring weather.  

Had I built my backdrop with a standard wood frame and reinforced joints like a logical person this would not have been an issue but I think the urban scene will be busy enough to draw people's attention away from them(hopefully).  On a related note if I did it all over again I would have gone with a backdrop shorter than 24".  It's nice that it blocks the view of the real world but I feel like it dwarfs the railroad a little too much. 

24" makes sense if you have pastoral scenes with distant mountains that break up all the blue but for the Brooklyn I'm trying to recreate  buildings in the 4-7 story range it takes away some of that crowded feel I'm after.  Maybe I'll feel different once I have more scenery in place but right now I'm unsure as to how this will turn out. My gut right now is that this type of layout needs to be higher with a shorter backdrop.

To your other comment above I plan on reducing the savings bank photo some more.  It's too out of scale at this point Iand as you said it dominates the scene a little too much.  I also plan on adding something else behind the left half of the warehouse (commissary) building but I just haven't work out from the corner that far yet. 

Thanks for the honest appraisal.  My #1 piece of advice when it's your turn to try this is to make sure nothing is permanently in place when you start.  My flats are rubber cemented to the gator board/foam board backing which allows me to peel them off if I need to but even more importantly my flats are all held to the backdrop withmasking tape. 

It hasn't been a smooth transitions between each version I've posted so far and I've moved buildings around quite a bit until I found something worth sharing.  You will want to move things around once you start so make sure you can make changes!

I'm hoping to find time to tackle some more of this corner over the weekend.  I need more wall columns to finish off partial I've mocked up so far (why they give you so few flat pilasters in a pack I don't get it!)  so that project is on hold for the moment.  I might work down the peninsula to the right of this area and work on my carfloat yard scene but I'm not really sure where to go next to be honest.  Decisions decisions!

More Progress...

I had a couple of hours this weekend (it's amazing how quickly you can get these paper flats in and the price can't be beat!) so I was able to make some progress.  Here's an overall shot with some of the space behind my red transload warehouse filled in as well as the beginnings of a scenic vignette to the left of the building:

Here's a close up of the space I filled in.  The four structures are reduced scale to help create depth in the flat backdrop.  The four buildings to the left were added this weekend. 

The lighter colored structure is mounted on cover stock allowing it behind the red factory building with the other three on 1/8" foam core.  It doesn't show well in the picture but the different thicknesses of the backing makes it look like there is a city out there.

Here is the first of 3 air handler units I plan on installing over the cold storage section of the trans load building.  The weathering washes are still wet on the unit so the colors are a little exaggerated but the picture still shows how the units creates a break in front of the flats.

Here's the last picture of the day.  I took half of a Pikestuff yard office which houses the refrigeration equipment for the cold storage unit.  The piping running into the main building is wedged in place at this point but once it's painted and glued in place it will look a lot cleaner.  Even still I think the piping combined with the photo backdrop tucked in behind gives the reasonable feeling of a longer alleyway.

That's it for me.  Thanks for reading!

Mind the Gap

That narrow gap in the skyline just to the left of the corner still jumps out so the opposite sides of the corner seem disconnected somehow.  Maybe some distant taller buildings will work there, or even some clouds or trees?

I like how you're incorporating the Williamsburgh bank tower into the scene which helps to establish the specific locale.  Perhaps some additional NYC vistas can show up in the spaces between closer backdrop structures elsewhere too as things fill in.

Another approach

I have enjoyed watching the evolution of a backscene in this thread.  Super work arranging the buildings behind the long freighthouse.  The only thing I'd change after a cursory glance at the latest pictures is to remove that pointy tower in the corner.  It's pointing straight at the very feature you're trying to hide!  Remove that element and add elements on either side to draw your focus away from that corner.  If anything goes in that corner it should not draw any attention to itself and be as non-distinctive as possible.

I agree with other posters who have said your foreground action will draw attention away from the background...but only as long as you don't put anything in the background that will compete with the foreground.

Galen

BEDT is my muse too

I am following your progress with keen interest.   I'm still in the bench work phase of my BEDT inspired pike.

Soon as I saw the 6A comment in the photo, I knew exactly where the photo was taken.

I have the same blue corner making me scratch my head.  Thanks for sharing your journey.

Tom

Gaps, Corners, etc

Rob - I hadn't noticed how much that gap stood out until you mentioned it but you're right!  I wasn't planning on leaving that area untouched but I've held off on doing anything there until I sorted out how I was going to handle my alleyway which is right below it.  What isn't visible in the pictures I've shared so far the issue is how I handle the alleyway that the truck is parked in.  While I took this from track height it still shows what I have to mask:

And a close up focusing on the area that needs to be addressed.

While this isn't a typical viewing location for the operator working the carfloat side of the layout it is something that may be seen by the 2nd operator.  My idea is to use this picture of an alleyway leading to a street but I need to correct it for a straight on perspective but I don't own any photo editing software that would allow me to do that and don't plan on buying any to be honest.  I'll figure something out of try and sucker a friend into helping me.  Any volunteers?

With the alley in place I'm going to add a building to fill in the skyline that you mentioned above.

Galen - I plan on making adjustments to the Williamsburgh bank building.  It's still too large and appears out of scale for how far away I want it to appear.  I think once it's scaled down a bit it will blend into the scene a bit better.  It's funny that it jumps out to people so much in photos, in person I don't think it's that noticeable but I do appreciate the critical feedback!

Tom:  It's nice to know there is another BEDT modeler out there!  My biggest challenge as I've started scenery is trying to build an urban scene that "feels" like New York in the 70's as it is very easy to fall into "generic city" if you don't move carefully.

~rb

Time to tag the Transload facility

This update isn't strictly related to dealing with my "corner issues" but since geographically it's in the same general area I figured I'd post to this thread.  A few days ago I had a little time and given my success in adding graffiti to my engine house I thought I would give my transload building a go. 

First, here's an overall shot of the building.  I've only done the left third of the building so far; the rest will be tagged up as I find time.

As with my engine house tags I used medium point jelly roll pens for the smaller writing and acrylic paint pens for the larger tags.  I tagged the face of my loading dock figuring it would be the easiest part of the building for them to get at.  For whatever reason the white pen seems to produce the best spray paint effect but I still mixed the colors to keep some variety.

I'm a little disappointed in how the "RVLT" tag came out and I'm undecided about either leaving it or painting over it in another color to give the appearance of a vain attempt at fighting the vandalism similar to this picture.  I think I also need to break up the uniformity of the tags somewhat as it looks a bit odd they are all neatly lined up in a row across the front of the building.  I didn't realize i was doing that as I tagged the structure. 

I am very happy with how my "IZ" tag came out and this is the farthest out I worked on the building.  I also took my paint pens and did some small scribbles around the main tag.  I didn't try to spell something out, just squiggled my pen around a little until it looked like something.  I think it gives the appearance that the tags were added over time and breaks up the uniformity of things a little bit.  This will be used on the face of the loading dock in the shot above to try and get the same effect.

Here's the last shot and my favorite.  This is the side entrance to the warehouse.  Most of what I did here were "little squiggles" and one prominent tag.  I'll clutter things up with some more squiggles but I think this shot is one of the first I've taken that captures that grittiness that I'm after (and reminded me that I need to figure out how to hide the gap in the base of my structure . 

While I'm definitely no Al Mayo (no one does graffiti better that I know of) I'm really happy with what I've been able to do with no experience and $5 worth of supplies.

~rb

Keep it Up

Little details like this help set the scene, and relieve the expanses of large structures.  The close-up in the last shot shows the 3-D brick blending well with the backdrop too.  I did a double-take on that one after initially wondering if it was all 3-D.