kleaverjr

I have spent over an hour searching using different terms in google with no luck.  I lost the links to various web pages that had electronic diagrams for various DCC Boosters and Power Supplies.  The reason why I want to build my own is cost.  With the large current draw of Tsunami Decoders, it is very possible that each station/town will need it's own booster and power supply so spending hundreds of dolalrs will become very expensive.  IIRC, the cost of the parts is abotu 1/10th of the price of say a PB105 NCE Booster so the cost savings is worth the time and effort building my own.

Any help would be most appreciated.

Ken L.

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Steves VR

This maybe of interest,

its a kit although you can buy just the PCB and source your own parts.

http://railstars.org/hardware/lolbooster/

assembly and installation instructions appear to be very comprehensive.

Cheers

Steve

Reply 0
foum60

+ +

If we are talking N/HO,  Soundtraxx Tsunami decoders do not draw more current than any other sound/motor decoder.  Many sound/motor decoders  have the infamous  in-rush current  issue but this  will not be resolved by adding more boosters.  I do not understand why you are going down this path unless you are running many engines at one time on a section.   Your existing booster has ? AMPS ?

Marc Fournier, Quebec 

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kleaverjr

Not running anything yet.....

...in fact, two days ago, I finished demolishing the old P&A Layout in preparation for the interim P&A.  I intend to have each locomotive (with a few exceptions) have it's own Tsunami Motor/Sound Decoder.  Since there will be situations where there might be 3 units on the head end, and 2 units for helpers, that would be a potential of 5 locomtives in one train block.  If there are two trains with a similar configuration that would me 10 locomotives in one station/town! From information provided in other threads, that would mean I should have a 6 AMP capacity for each town! (10 Unitx x .6A = 6A TOTAL) So that's where I am coming up with my calculations.

Ken L.

Reply 0
Russ Bellinis

How many 10 unit trains for the entire layout?

If you have the possibility of 2-5 unit trains on one town = 6amps.  How many more towns will have the same load at the same time? 

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kleaverjr

Not sure how many total units for entire layout...

 

...because the Ultiamte P&A is still being designed and planned.  The Interim P&A will just be that, Interim.  I am designing it to be in 4' wide sections that will be removable.  I want to build it with the Ultimate layout in mind so i don't have to go back and redo something becuase of lack of foresight. 

But how many total units is rather moot in this context.  With the Ultimate plan, I hope to have things stretched out enough where typically only one train will be in one "area" but the possiblity of four trains n one "area" (which would encompass one station/town, with two train blocks in either side) has to be accounted for.  In that kind of scenario, Two trains would be in the town (one on the main, one in the siding) and one train on either (such as an inferior train in the siding while three superior trains are in the other three train blocks)   Although MOST of the time there will most likely only be ONE train in a specfic area, it is for those few times where there might be FOUR trains in a specific area I have to plan for because if I don't, the moment it happens, I will overload the booster! It is not planning for the "usual" but rather, preparign for the "WORSE CASE SCENARIO" that I have to plan for. 

Ken L.

Reply 0
foum60

+ +

Since this 6 AMP group is traveling from one town  to the next in my head, all you really need is one 6 AMP supply..

If' on the other hand' you had 6Amp draw in each town, at the same moment,  then I see it makes sense to have 6Amps availlable in every town on your layout..  If such is the case I understand.

Marc Fournier, Quebec

 

Reply 0
kleaverjr

6 AMP Draw can occur anywhere...

This issue is Marc, it's not that it's a single 6 AMP load that traverses one station/town to the next.  Or that there will be 6 AMP draw in one specific town every time.  It's the potential that at any given town there can be 6AMPS while there are other trains on the layout.  Total trains in the Ultimate P&A Plan will be ateast 15! Now not every train will have 5 locomotives assigned to it.  But again, I need to plan for what happens IF 2 trains with 5 units, are in the same town/Station.  For the single track train blocks that are in between each town station will have one booster (since there will be 2-3 train blocks in between each station/town)

And depending on the Timetable and how things are running (which from experience is NEVER on time except for the Class 1 trains) they won't be evenly distributed.  Because of the risk of frying decoders, I won't go to say a 10 AMP or 15 AMP Booster which could cover a larger section requiring fewer boosters, I need to accomodate for the maximum load in a specific area.  If I thought that this situation would not happen, then I could have one booster cover more than one station/town, but that is flirting with disaster. 

So is all this power needed at once?  No.  But what other solution is there o make sure there is sufficient power WHEN (not if, but when) there are two trains capable of drawing a total of 6 AMPS,with another one or two trains in the blocks right next to the same station/town with even say 1-2 units for each of those trains, one booster would be over loaded, would it not?

Ken L

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Russ Bellinis

Someone else more expert than can answer this better.

It would seem that you could run a 10 or 15 amp booster with 7 or 8 amp breakers in series with each power district.  If your max load is 6 amps, you want a breaker that will slightly exceed the max load to avoid nusance trips. The circuit breakers would be a lot less expensive than boosters, and should protect against the sort of overload that would start to fry things.  The idea is to wire like your house wiring,  You may have 100 or 200 amp service at your main breaker, but then the power splits into a number of circuits of 15 - 20 amps with the appropriate breakers.  If you have twenty circuits in your house, you would not use twenty 15-20 amp power supplies, you would use one large power source and then break it down to smaller protected circuits. My recommendation would also be breakers that require a manual reset.  They are somewhat less convenient, but automatic reset breakers can just break and make continuously until you find the problem and eventually the circuit breaker fails open and needs replacing.  You could use the lamps to show a problem at 7 amps, if normal max load is 6 amps, but have a resetable breaker trip out at 8 amps.

Reply 0
kleaverjr

That's an interesting idea. 

That's an interesting idea.  I will have to look into that as a possible alternative! 

Reply 0
foum60

+ +

Wonder what an 1156 bulb does in this case, no a short but if it goes over the limit does it still work or hold the track to the trip current  and the bulb simply gets brighter and brighter. 

Solid state circuit breakers a la PSX from DCC Specialties  should deal with this  issue and are ajustable between 1.26 and  17A and can have manual reset.  There is a cost involved but safe for decoders and such. 

Marc Fournier, Quebec

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kleaverjr

No luck finding 15A+ Booster...

Haven't been able to find plans for a 15A Booster, so this idea might not work out.

If I went with that very affordable 3A boosters, if each train block had it's own booster, I wouldn't have to mess around with the Auto Taillight bulbs, especially running two of them in parallel because each train block would have it's own booster.  I have to do more research on this.

If anyone still has links to "bulid your own boosters" that would be very helpful! Thanks!

Ken L.

Reply 0
Russ Bellinis

You were looking at the need to handle 6 amps in a block.

How would 3 amp boosters work with a 6 amp load?

Reply 0
bear creek

1156 characteristics

Given a 'legal' HO scale DCC track voltage, putting a 1156 bulb in series with a block will limit current in that block to about 1.5 amps regardless of how much booster capacity is present.

When the filament in an incandescent bulb is cold, it is nearly a short circuit. As more current goes through the bulb the filament heats up and increases dramatically in resistance until at full rated current the bulb is glowing brightly and current is somewhere in the 1.3 to 1.5 amp range.

BUT

When you get up to around 1/2 to 3/4 amp through the bulb (very aproximate values!) the filament will start to glow a dim red color. At this point the resistance is already starting to soar.

The effect of this is to reduce the voltage on the tracks - the bulb and the locos on the track form a voltage divider. If there's 1/2 amp through a 5 ohm light bulb filament that bulb is taking 2.5 volts. (values are guesses) Yikes! 20% of booster output voltage is being dropped across the freakin' tail light bulb! Bulbs are a voltage controlled resistor...

So if we put 2 amps of locos (5 locos at full throttle on a steep grade with a long train), that tail light bulb is in series with them and with it's filament heating up nicely and brightly most of the booster output voltage is dropped by the bulb. In fact the bulb resistance becomes high enough that current won't stay at 2 amps for more than a 50 milliseconds before dropping back to the bulbs rated current at 12V.

So don't expect to use single 1156 bulbs in series with track where you really want full 5 amp booster output current to be available in a single block.  Won't work.  You can put multiple bulbs in parallel or use a higher current bulb. But probably you'll be needing to fork out the $$ for an electronic circuit breaker.  The electronic jobs have nearly zero resistance at any current up to the trip point, which means they also are stealing (droppng) next to no voltage from the locomotives. And when an overcurrent situation arrises they will switch off more quickly than a 1156 bulb filament would heat up.

The following is surmise on my part. No actual studies.  At one of the layouts I operate on I've seen the filaments of 1156 glowing dimly while consists are pulling long trains out of staging. The result of this is that giving the locos more throttle doesn't appear to do anything. But when that train loses rolling resistance - the grade lessens, or less of the train is on a curve or threading through turnouts, it's desire for current also drops, the bulbs stop trying to light up, and their resistance drops back to nearly nothing and suddenly the locos have an extra 2 to 5 volts of track voltage and they shoot ahead.

I believe that 1156 bulbs, when used in blocks where the current is flirting with that needed to barely start them lighting up, can cause pogoing to occur in loco operation. Increase the throttle, more current while the train accelerates causing low level bulb light up. Assuming the train reaches its operating speed and the throttle is backed off, the bulbs cool down, voltage increases and the train surges forward. Causing the opeator to drastically cut the throttle. Then the train slows down too much, throttle is increased and the cycle repeats.

I believe this can also happen going downhill with long trains. Some locos (proto 2000 especially) seem prone to this behaviour already. The long train bunches up behind the loco(s) pressing on them causing the gears to bind a bit. Which slows down the loco making the train press harder on the locos which makes the binding in the gears worse, etc. until the train either stops or gets slow enough the binding is eased. Then the loco(s) which still have the same throttle application, accerlerate forward releasing the binding completely which causes them to really shoot forward. Then the train catches back up to them and the binding cycle begins again.  Now add in a 1156 bulb. If there's enough current draw in that block to bring the bulb up close to starting to glow, when the binding occurs current draw increases causing the bulb to light up a bit causing the loco to slow down more exaceerbating the binding problem. When the binding finally releases, the current drops enough that the bulb quits glowing and boy does that loco want to take off!

In summary, 1156 bulbs are a lot less expensive than electronic circuit breakers. But they have some behavioral peculiarities. If you're planning to run more than a few, can motored locos in a block at a time, you might want experiment a bit to see if the 1156 bulbs will be a benefit or a problem.

Now for some 'good' news... I wired my blocks with a spdt center off switch. In the up position in put an 1156 bulb in series with the track. In the down position the 1156 bulb is out of the circuit and the track is powered directly from a booster. In the center position that block is turned off.  In nearly all situations including double headed locos going up my 2.8% grade with a helper shoving on the back, I've not seen any throttle lag or pogoing on my layout as evidenced by flipping the toggle switch between the 'bulb protected' and 'direct power' positions.

But I *have* seen bulbs glowing on other layouts.

One other thing about 1156 protection before I get off my soap box.  They don't limit current instantly. Some DCC boosters (read Digitrax) are rather expeditious when detecting a short circuit and removing power.  I needed to set my Digitrax boosters to their 'long' delay using an ops sw (sorry I don't remember which one off hand buy JMRI makes it simple to deal with these). Now when I can toss a quarter on the track, the bulb lights up limiting current and the booster doesn't crowbar so the other blocks keep functioning.

Hope all this is at least somewhat helpful.

Charlie

 

Superintendent of nearly everything  ayco_hdr.jpg 

Reply 0
kleaverjr

3A In One Block = 6A in One Station/Town

I was looking into having One 6A Booster for each town to cover two train blocks in the town.  But with the one design for an inexpensive 3A Booster, each train block can have one booster (5 Units x .6A = 3A) That's the idea at least.

Ken L.

Reply 0
peter-f

is this one useful?

My google search terms were (punctuation omitted):    [schematic] or [circuit] + DCC Booster 

DCC is a bit beyond my skill set, so I'll refer what I found... and although I found thsse guys years ago, their recent update is a month or 2 old!

Try the British site.

    http://www.merg.org.uk/resources/dcc.htm#MERGDCCComponents

I find our 'parochial' view of 'made in USA' shuts us off to the developers of DCC.  Look up Rutger Freiberg (?), who developed DCC for Maerklin & the NMRA.  

Oh, not to slight the Canadians, I also refer to Paisley's circuits for inspiration.  My thanks to him for his work!

    http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/CircuitIndex.html

 

- regards

Peter

Reply 0
robteed

DIY DCC Power Supply and other projects

Hi Ken,

This site has everything you would want. All NMRA compliant. I built my NanoX-S88 system from this site.

http://www.tinet.cat/~fmco/home_en.htm

 

Reply 0
Railstars

on LOLbooster

Quote:

 I was looking into having One 6A Booster for each town to cover two train blocks in the town.  But with the one design for an inexpensive 3A Booster, each train block can have one booster (5 Units x .6A = 3A) That's the idea at least.

Ken L.

This is exactly what LOLbooster is designed for: Being a cheap enough booster that you could use one to power a single block. The idea is to reduce the risk of damage from a catatrophic short, and to reduce wiring complexity by not using an additional power distribution system. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about our product.

Incidentally, on the LOLbooster product page, which a previous poster linked to already, you can also find a large list of other DIY booster projects, some of them quite good. (Although I like to think ours strikes the best balance between reliability and cost.)

D.E. Goodman-Wilson,
railstars.org

 

 

Reply 0
John C H

Look at Tam Valley Booster

 For the price of buying a PC board, then all the parts, then having to build the thing, if you investigate Tam Valley stuff you might like what you see. His accessory power supply can be set up to operate as a 3A booster. He calls them a powered circuit breaker for large power distribution systems. $55 US with a DC power supply is cheaper than anything I have seen in a build it yourself kit once you really add up all the costs. OR if you do it like Duncan does, $42US just for the booster then a massive switching power supply might do what you are really trying to accomplish. 

 Canada 

Reply 0
james_i

try merg

hi

try http://www.merg.org.uk they have plans for a dcc booster and many other things in there download page they also provide kits for members to buy. hope this helps

Reply 0
vasouthern

TAM Valley

Take a look at the TAM Valley Booster. $38 each without power supply.

It does what you need and can just add more as you need more power. Affordable and factory support instead of yourself building from scratch.

I think the figures that have been expressed are too high for current demands on a layout. I have used the older Zephyr and NEVER shut down from overload running 6-8 HO locos. Remember that each unit is NOT wide open pulling max current. Thats where some make mistakes when figuring the loads. 

I looked into building myself and for the price TAM is the best choice. Figure in your time and future operations. Id rather be building layout and operating than spending hours building one booster. Im a electronics tech professionally and chose to buy.

 

Randy McKenzie
Virginia Southern - Ho triple decker 32x38

Digitrax Zephyr, DCC++EX, JMRI, Arduino CMRI
On Facebook:   http://www.facebook.com/groups/485922974770191/

Proto freelance merger of the CRR and Interstate

Based on the north end of the Clinchfield.

 

 

Reply 0
lexon

Our club has run about ten

Our club has run about ten sound locos on a NCE 5 amp Power Pro. No problem.

Rich

Reply 0
peter-f

Current... resistance... all in balance!

Rich - 

That's because motors have varying Current draw as they get moving.

Like a refrigerator (or car in low gear) they need more current (torque, for engines) to Start up... once in motion, only a fraction of that initial demand continues.  Each motor is different, so my discussion now is without specific reference, but only an outline of what happens.

From a cold stop, the current draw may be 1 to 1.6 amps each... once in motion, it drops to 1/3 of that... maybe  1/4... maybe even less!  Thus (remember, this is referring to Motors, only), 10 locos may draw near zero amps while parked, 16 amps at 2 MPH... and under 3 amps at 40 MPH (your sound demands will add to that, but that, too, is dependent on specific electronics and construction).

Thus, you seem to be doing fine... but I'd think you're on the edges of the NCE's 5 Amp capabilities.

The discussion over lamps (hot tungsten filaments) as a current-limiter adds another dimension to the mix.  It's why my regard for electrical engineers has been rising over the years.

[BTW, I use lamps on a DC layout... because they're simple for 2-loco draw, and CAN be used for DCC. Upgrade to circuit breaker may be recommended, but lamps are better than nothing.]

- regards

Peter

Reply 0
proto87stores

Have you checked out MERG

Model Railway Electronics group out of the UK. Have inexpensive DIY parts and circuits for all DCC components AFAIK. Google them for more info.

Andy

Reply 0
Bruce Petrarca

Big boosters

Quote:

It would seem that you could run a 10 or 15 amp booster

I know of no 15 amp boosters. The NCE 10 amp booster is NOT for small gauge railroads. It delivers 30 amps for 1/4 second to start USA Trains G-scale GPs. (NCE makes an 8-amp running, 30-amp stall current decoder for this application.) The NCE 10 amp booster will deliver 60 amps into a short faster than any circuit breaker on the market can act. Imagine that inside your loco - smoked components and melted wires. Your truck wires would be pressed into duty as fuses!

The Tsunami decoder by itself takes about 0.05 amps of operating current. Unless you are running some really inefficient motors, you should rarely measure running currents in excess of 0.25 amps per loco.

Have you measured the current draw of your locos?

I have an O-scale diesel on my workbench now that is running a QSI Magnum decoder driving 4 speakers in a series-parallel configuration to accomplish an 8 ohm load for the decoder. It draws 0.01 amp with the sound on and the loco idling. Running, it runs up to a max of 0.4 with sound so loud that it will run you out of the room - the owner has a 16 x 85 foot building for his layout.

Our club (http://www.pcmrc.org/) has about 30 HO locos on the layout, about half of them are sound. All of them on active track, meaning that they are drawing quiescent current whenever the layout is on. In an operating session, we will have 10 to 12 running at the same time. We have three Digitrax boosters driving 19 PSx circuit breakers. During a recent operating session, we had a booster develop a funk. We disconnected it and jumpered between two districts and ran almost all the locos (I'd guess 7 to 10) off one Digitrax 5 amp booster - which on the test bench puts out about 75% of the current that an NCE 5 amp booster does. Not a hitch.

I'm trying to suggest that you may be looking for a problem that isn't there.

As for your question, look at the Tam Valley Depot (MRH sponsor) offering. Not a kit but inexpensive and well designed. http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccpowerfrogjuicers.html

MSRP of electronics is frequently 5 x parts cost. The difference goes into assembly, test, warranty, support, marketing and, yes, profit. Don't make a profit and you are out of business. Taking the NCE PB-105 as an example, the metal case that functions as a heat sink and makes it so robust costs NCE almost $30. Based on the 5 x multiplier, the case should sell for almost the MSRP of the entire assembly. They aren't gouging folks!

Bruce Petrarca, Mr. DCC; MMR #574

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