Michael micktropolis

Hi folks! I've been working through some of my HO scale motive power and adding DCC/Sound as I go, some are 90s-era Rivarossi, some BLI (brass-hybrid, bluebox, Paragon2 & 3), and some pure brass pieces. Right now I'm working on a BLI 4-12-2 that now has a NixTrainz Decoder Buddy Mini and is awaiting a Loksound 21pin decoder (assuming they ever come back in stock), and a square Scale Sound System Full Force speaker under the coal bunker and a Boiler Barker in the smokebox, in place of the smoke unit. 

What I'd like to do next is to install some orange LEDs at the firebox to give that flicker effect. My Athearn Big Boy has this flickering firebox effect between the wheels and I actually really enjoy it, so I thought it might be fun to add this effect to the 4-12-2 and maybe some other models in the future. The main issue is that I can see is that the 8 wires on the loco/tank connector are already accounted for, 2 track, 2 motor, 2 for the headlight and ground, and 2 for the boiler speaker so I can't use the Decoder Buddy in this instance for the additional functions, unless I wanted to add additional connections between the loco and tank which I'd prefer to avoid. 

My thought is to use a lighting accessory decoder (TCS FL2 or FL4 or similar) in the boiler which could then provide control for the firebox flicker (and maybe even marker lights if I'm brave enough). I assume that it doesn't matter how the decoder is addressed and setting it the same as the loco proper wouldn't cause issues? I don't see a lot of mentions about doing this but is it as simple as I think it to be with regards to programming? I appreciate any insight! 

Michael

A YouTube Channel of my model railroading and railfanning 

Modeling 1930s-50s UP, modern day Northeast Corridor, and anything in between!
Reply 1
Nick Santo amsnick

Thought.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for mentioning the Decoder Buddy!   Scale Sound Systems speakers are very fine as well!
 

I wondered if the TCS FL4 programmed to a very similar locomotive address and then consisted to the locomotive might be an answer.  I considered the TCS FL2 and FL4 at one point and went in a different direction.  By consisting both decoders within the single locomotive you gain control of the low function numbers on the FL4.  
 

I will be interested to find out how you resolve this.

Nick

https://nixtrainz.com/ Home of the Decoder Buddy

Full disclosure: I am the inventor of the Decoder Buddy and I sell it via the link above.

Reply 0
MikeHughes

Are is there an output pad left on the Mini?

I'm not familiar with the Mini, having only used the larger original Decoder Buddies so far. 

If there is an output pad left over (?), could you just run a pair, or even just one (connect other lead  to common inside the loco)  really light wire over to the firebox and put an LED in, and then turn on any flicker-like effect in the decoder? 

The FL4 certainly sounds like it would work, consisted as Nick suggests, but seems like a lot more expense and physical effort than just running a wire.  Alternatively a full size buddy would likely fit to give you more output pads if needed. 

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Do-able...

Dear Michael,

In order of appearance:

Quote:

What I'd like to do next is to install some orange LEDs at the firebox to give that flicker effect. 

Do-able. SMD 0603 LED + (SMD?) resistor, fed from decoder.

Quote:

The main issue is that I can see is that the 8 wires on the loco/tank connector are already accounted for, 2 track, 2 motor, 2 for the headlight and ground, and 2 for the boiler speaker so I can't use the Decoder Buddy in this instance for the additional functions, unless I wanted to add additional connections between the loco and tank which I'd prefer to avoid. 

First, doesn't sound like a DecoderBuddy limit, but a Loco<> Tender wiring loom limit...
(I'm sure the DB has more "pins"/solder-points available...

Second, yes, Loco<> Tender looms suck, which is why on my 3-truck shays, I do everything I can to eliminate them completely.

- Both "Loco" trucks + sound decoder + KA + speaker + lighting in the "Loco" unit,
- a TCS FLx + KA wired to the "3rd truck" wheels, feeding the backup headlight, completely standalone.

Set both decoders to the same loco address, and the end-result is "seamless" in operation...

Quote:

My thought is to use a lighting accessory decoder (TCS FL2 or FL4 or similar) in the boiler which could then provide control for the firebox flicker (and maybe even marker lights if I'm brave enough).

Do-able, see above. NB that the FL4, despite having 4x Lighting outputs, is actually smaller than the FL2!
(Space saving FTW!). That extra space however will likely be eaten up by a 2nd (smaller capacity) KA. Suggest reading up on SMD Tantalum capacitors and DIY KAs
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/running-extra/2018-12/stay-alive-n

Also worth noting that because the FLx is NOT the "motor decoder", it has no access to the BEMF from the motor. Thus any "firebox flicker" will NOT change dynamically in relation to speed or load...

IE If your existing "firebox flicker" examples you are happy-with have noticable "flare up" as the loco starts climbing a grade, or "flare flare flare" as the sound goes "chuff chuff chuff", then don't expect the same from a "firebox flicker" generated by a secondary/"aux lighting" decoder...

Quote:

I assume that it doesn't matter how the decoder is addressed and setting it the same as the loco proper wouldn't cause issues? 

 Decoders are (relatively) dumb devices. They sit on the "network", and if they get a command addressed to them, they "just do it"... so while generally having multiple LOCOs with common address is a recipe for confusion, In This Case having the "Loco decoder" and "aux lighting decoder" set to the same address is entirely appropriate...

Quote:

I don't see a lot of mentions about doing this but is it as simple as I think it to be with regards to programming?

Ah ha! Here's the rub! (No free lunches!)

Programming as part of initial installation can be relatively simple. Pre-programming a TCS FLx "standalone" for a given task is a doddle, and with it pre-configured, the installation becomes simply a matter of "bolting/soldering it in"...

HOWEVER....

Once you have Both Decoders wired into the loco (in parallel relative to the loco pickups),
programming becomes a Bear Of A Thing, as there is no way the Decoders can determine "was that change to CV nnn for You, or for Me???"

NB in the case of my Shays above, I can easily separate the "Loco" and the "3rd truck bunker", and program them completely individually, so the below is not required in My Case. However, I have tested the below on an Athearn SD40-2 where an N scale ST TSU provided Motor + HeadLights + Sound, and a TCS FL2 provided additional "ditchlights"...

There IS a "Decoder Lock" function built into NMRA spec decoders, which essentially gives each decoder an ID number (CV 16). There is a 2nd related CV (CV 15) which is effectively an "enable/disable decoder for programming" switch.

https://docs.tcsdcc.com/wiki/Support_-_Decoder_Lock

The Recipe is as follows.
(Assuming ALL "Initial Programming" of BOTH decoders is complete, but they are NOT yet "installed/wired together"!)

Loco (Inc Sound) decoder : Set CV 16 = 2
Aux Lighting decoder : Set CV 16 = 3

At this point, both decoders will appear to stop accepting Programming Instructions. This is Expected!

- Now, do the physical install, and wire everything up Like You Mean It, as if It's Forever...
This is NOT the time to scrimp, take shortcuts, or otherwise do a 1/2-hearted job!!!
You do NOT want to have to re-open this nightmare of a shoehorn-wiring job again!!!

- Now, set CV 15 in BOTH decoders to "7" (Effectively Locks both decoders)

NB that with BOTH decoders wired together, and BOTH decoders having the same Loco Address,
programming CV 15 in "Program on Main" mode One-Time will effectively program BOTH decoders CV15 value simultaneously....

This is the One and Only time when "programming a given CV on 2 decoders simultaneously" will be a Good and Expected Thing!

From Here, assuming all is well, there should be no further need to tweak anything,
the loco just operates exactly the way you wish, and all is sunshine and rainbows and lollypops and trains...

...until you DO need to reconfigure something, at which point:

(Assuming "Programming on the Main" mode)

- Program CV15 = 2 (The Loco decoder will UNlock for programming, as CV15 = CV16)
OR
- Program CV15 = 3 (The Aux Lighting decoder will UNlock for programming, as CV15 = CV16)

...then tweak CVs on the respective decoder as required,
and don't-forget to set CV15 back to "7" once you're done...

If the above sounds like too-much-angst, then wiring the TCS FLx with a 2pin plug so it can be Unplugged/Isolated from "the loco" and programmed seperately may be another option...
...albeit accessing that plug, let alone getting at the decoder in any meaningful way, is exactly what you're trying to avoid in the first place...

I hope this helps...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
Michael micktropolis
Thank you very much all! I've got a lot to consider.

Nick, I'm a big fan of the Decoder Buddy! I've used in in 4 projects so far and have not had any issues, it definitely makes it simpler to wire things (assuming you don't have trouble tracing wires on BLI steam, yeesh!).  I don't ever really run consists so the thought never crossed my mind! I may have to play with it when the time comes. BTW I love the built in resistors, as adding those was always my least favorite part of any decoder install.

Mike, the Mini generally has enough light function pads in most cases for my steam motive power, I actually just don't want to have another set of wires between the loco and tank beyond the stock wire harness if I can help it. In the case of the BLI 4-12-2, I think I would have trouble fitting anything bigger than the Mini in the tank with the addition of the Full Force SSS speaker under the coal bunker, but the Mini fits very well under the water hatches. Some of my other steam (Rivarossi in this case) get Minis in the boilers, so I only have to worry about fitting a 2-wire connection between the loco and tank for the rear light - nevermind that cracking open a Rivarossi centipede tank is a 3 night chore itself. 

Prof, that is very helpful and you've given me much to think about! I hadn't thought of locking one decoder when programming the other. I'm looking forward to trying this out when I eventually get the FL decoder (and thanks for the heads up that the FL4 is smaller!). I'm printing out your instructions for when I can get around to eventually installing this. 

As far as flicker being in tune with the BEMF, I don't mind that much if it is or not responding to the motor, just having the flicker effect is enough for me. I don't believe my Athearn Big Boy has the flicker in tune with the motor, but the effect is fine. The addition of classification lights also seems like it may be a challenge but I think of these things as little electronic puzzles. I've been having a lot of fun working on them the last several months, fitting current keepers, trying different speaker setups, adding additional LED lighting. I just have to decide if I want to risk the smokebox and remove the jewels that BLI put in the classification lights and drill them out, or if I should get some Cal-Scale parts and install those, or if I should contact BLI about getting an extra smokebox front in case I destroy something beyond repair. 

I'm now also thinking of adding a DCC controlled Smart-Coupler from Subarashi Models to the tender. Seems silly for something that isn't a switcher to get DCC controlled couplers, but this 4-12-2 is my favorite piece of motive power I have, and is also a bit of a test bed. I like the thought of my flagship to get all the bells and whistles, metaphorically in this case.

I'll update this thread if I remember...I probably won't be ordering the LEDs and the function decoder until after the new year to let the postal craziness settle a bit. 

Thanks again all!

Michael
A YouTube Channel of my model railroading and railfanning 

Modeling 1930s-50s UP, modern day Northeast Corridor, and anything in between!
Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr
Dear Michael,

If you're thinking of adding DCC-Activated couplers, then you'll be looking to add _another_ "DCC device" to the loco, with multiplication of the "programmin' n lockin' " challenges. IIRC the Japanese couplers have their own specific "decoder", whereas the PreciModels units are (best?) mated with an ESU Lokpilot FX ("Uncoupling mode" and "timed deactivation" function capabilities), or similar...

Proceed with caution, a decent "bench test" rig would be wise to play/test with First...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr
Reply 0
Michael micktropolis
I'm undecided on that Smart Coupler for now, but it may be something to play with in the future, the cost of entry to play with one isn't too great thankfully. 

I wanted to cross post this here in addition to a journal post I've made. I finally got the firebox flicker and classification lights up and burning bright. I hardwired the Track L and Track R wires from the FL4 to the harness connection on the loco, and with the ESU Loksound decoder not installed, I programmed the FL4 in JMRI to respond to the cab number, and then I set the function wires to the specific buttons I wanted: F5 for the classification lights, and F8 for the firebox flicker which turns on when the sound comes on. I then set the functions to their specific settings. The lamps got constant bright, and then constant dim as I realized constant bright was much too bright (as you can see in the video below). On the Loksound, F5 controls Aux3 (mars light) which isn't present on the 4-12-2, so I removed it from the Loksound.

Finally, I locked the decoder using CV16, and reinstalled the Loksound which was already programmed for 9042. And away we go! The only thing left to do is add the Krystal Klear for the lenses. 



I was thinking about other uses for the TCS FL4, and the next project I may use one in is an unpowered Bachmann Acela locomotive. I'm planning on using a Soundtraxx electric profile decoder for the powered one, but the unpowered one will need something to control the lights at the other end. It might make more sense to set that up as a permanent consist, but that is a project for later this year. 

Thanks again all for your suggestions and help! I'm thinking of all the fun I can have with function only decoders and there might be a caboose that gets light in the near future now!
A YouTube Channel of my model railroading and railfanning 

Modeling 1930s-50s UP, modern day Northeast Corridor, and anything in between!
Reply 0
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