Gaps

Paul,

A complete pic of the entire layout would be helpful.  Hard to tell from what is shown where an ideal location to place the gaps would be.

Complete Layout Attached

OK Dave, I've attached / submitted the entire layout.

BTW the loop on the left side of the layout has an AR1 installed and functioning.

Hope that helps

Paul

Images

Dear MRHers,

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/help/how-to-post-an-image

(Right-click the image and choose "Open LINK in New Tab" to see full-sized versions)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Insulate the wye

It looks to me that the easiest solution is to double-insulate (gap both rails) both ends of the lower leg of the wye.  However, if you are running full length trains around that leg it probably will give you trouble, so then Plan B is to double-insulate both curved legs of the wye near the mainline (straight) side and also on that loop track just before the crossover below the wye, roughly at the pinch point in the benchwork.

Scott Chatfield 

Options

@ Prof, thanks for putting the drawings in line.

IF your longest train will fit between points A & B, then this option will be a simple solution.  You do need to ensure that the distance from A to C is at least the same length or longer.

Another option for longer trains is shown below.  This has the added penalty of including Lachance Steel in the reversing section.

Either of these options would only require one AR1.

The first option above could handle a longer train IF the crossover near B could be moved further from the wye.  Please let us know your thoughts.

EDIT:  I based the location of the upper insulated joiners because in the complete track diagram it appears that the same polarity (phase) of the rails above "The Long Coal Mine" continues counter-clockwise around the outside track(s) until it gets back to the blue track below "The Long Coal Mine", where the polarity becomes an issue.  The would explain the double gap marks on your original drawing.

Options

Dave

Thanks for the response. I kind of like the 2nd option as my trains can be pretty long. Is there any downside with the 2nd option? I’m not sure what you meant by “added penalty”. Is there something I need to pay particular attention to by setting it up this way?

Paul

Penalty

Paul, the only thing with Option 2 is that the red track to Lachance Steel needs to reverse with the wye. In other words, powered thru the AR1 output.

Is there block detection involved here?

Penalty

Dave, the red track is an elevated high line, it does not actually cross the green track anywhere along its’ length. Don’t know if that fact makes any difference to this conversation.

Not sure I know how to “have the red track reverse with the wye”? If I place the AR1 at “C” will that work.

There is currently no “ block detection” anywhere on the layout. I did just acquire some  DCC Specialties PSX4 Circuit Breakers. However I need to do some research to understand how to properly install them. This is new technology for me. I could use some tutoring.

Paul

Red Line

Paul,

In the track diagram it appears that the red line originates at a turnout from the green line.  If that's the case, any train passing over the double-gap at Option 2 B and going up the red track will need to be part of the reversing.

Here is another option, call it 3.  Use two AR1's, D to E/F, and G to H.  This is a simple and effective solution.  G to H is part of a reverse loop, and D to E/F corrects the polarity where the green track joins back to the blue at The Long Coal Mine.  And, each reversing section will most likely only ever be occupied by one train at a time.

This would likely be my first choice.  

PSX

Paul, I use PSX circuit breakers on my layout, and PSX-ARFB for my auto reversing.  The FB provides detection.  You may want to do some reading about mixing the AR1's with PSX breakers, that is a whole 'nuther challenge.  This just might be a good time to ditch the AR1.

Red Line

Dave

Thank you very much for the advice. I find this option to be quite elegant and workable.

Paul

PSX

Dave

Once again thank you for the advice. I will do some research on AR1's with PSX. I will most likely take your advice on loosing the AR1's  for the PSX-ARFB.

Thanks for all your help it is much appreciated.

Paul

The PSX-AR…

From DCC Specialties are well worth the investment.  I have two the helped me add two blocks to my railroad as well as provided auto reverse.  They have run flawlessly for close to 20 years right out of the box.  Yes a five star plus recommendation.

Dave is the king on this subject.

But, here is an alternate idea.  If you view your overall layout as one big loop, then that peninsula becomes the AR section.  You could isolate the peninsula with one PSX-AR  (or AR1).  It would assist troubleshooting too, since the peninsula is logically and visually separate.  Just an idea.

PSX Models

Paul,

Glad to help and hope you find it useful.  The PSX line of breakers includes a few different auto reversing models.  I use the PSX-ARFB because the 'FB' is Feed Back and provides detection feedback to JMRI.  My entire layout (except a few spurs) is detected for signaling and automated running.

In your case, where detection is not needed, the PSX-AR is all that is needed and you can save a few pennies.

Alternatives

Michael

Thank you for the idea. I certainly can see your reasoning and how that would work too.

Much appreciated.

Cheers

Paul

PSX Models

Dave

Although I have JMRI loaded on my desktop, I have yet to get anywhere near trying or even using it. I'm thinking sometime in the future I'll get to that.

Right now its all about the wiring and getting my loco's to run smoothly. Ron's Train N things enlightened me on to trying a new way of thinking about the track. Not cleaning but maximizing conductivity. As I have been struggling long with poor performing loco's. I'm forever cleaning my track with Isopropyl, messing with keep a-lives and contemplating an extra NCE booster (UGH!?!).

Anyway that's another story.

Thanks again

Cheers

Paul

Isn't too long a problem?

I've often read that you want your reversing section to be as big as your longest train - because if it's shorter you might have that long train entering and leaving the AR section at the same time, and that can cause a problem (depending on factors like metal wheelsets, cars with lights, etc).

Am I right in extrapolating that idea to also mean that you don't want the AR section to be so long that you could have two trains in it at once? Because then one train could be entering while the other is leaving and cause the same problem. 

Too Long

EW, that's a very interesting question. I would like to know what happens under the "alternate solution" when and if 2 trains enter the "zone"?

Paul

Two trains......

Two trains can cause a short when one is entering one end of the reverse section while the other is leaving.  The likelihood of that happening in a layout your size is very small, especially with only one operator. But it is something that is easy to plan for if you are aware of the possibility, and avoid the problem.

That is why the third solution I suggested is, in my humble opinion, the best.  A reversing section just longer than your longest train.  BTW, reversing the whole peninsula would not meet that guideline.

Ditch the IPA

Ditch the isopropyl alcohol (IPA), that's a major contributor to your forever cleaning cycle. IPA is a polar solvent, which encourages micro-arcing, making the wheels and track get dirty FASTER. Instead, use a non-polar solvent to clean your track and wheels and things will stay clean a lot longer.

Read: https://mrhmag.com/magazine/mrh2019-05/publishers-musings

IPA is already Gone

Hey Joe

Yup the isopropyl is already gone. I read your article and have moved to mineral spirits and just as you suggested using graphite I'm going to try something called "NO-OX-ID A-Special" to increase the conductivity of the track. 

Thanks for the tip and I'll let you know how things work out at my end.

Cheers

Paul

Great!

That's great, look forward to hearing a followup report!

Help with the wiring

I'm now running wire underneath my layout Red wire to the north of the track and Black to the South of the track before the double gap at D. I ran a separate Bus Wire from the D to E and F with jumpers to the track and connected the wire to the output of the AR1.

I then continued my Main Bus from before D along the track to past F and ran jumpers to the Main Bus after F. Now I'm thinking I also have to run my Main Bus and jumpers to the track after E and before G and also to the right turn out after the wye. This is where I got confused because at the Wye right turn out the Red and Black should reverse but they don't.

So can you help me with the wiring, what am I doing wrong???

Secondly If I go back to Michael's suggested solution of reversing and gapping the entire peninsula the wiring makes sense. So why can I not use that solution?

I'm at a loss.

Help!!

Paul