railandsail

I thought this was an interesting video that explained the 'intermixing' of various flag locos on various companies' tracks,..
 

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Very close

Railroads have been using run through power for over 75 years, the practice dates back to the steam era, although it was very rare back then.  It really took off during the diesel era.

Locomotives are accounted for based on horsepower hours (hphrs), not just hours.  The locomotive's horsepower is multiplied by the number of hours it is on the other road.  A 4000 hp engine accrues more hphrs than a 3000 hp engine.  For a modern railroad, they deal in tens or hundreds of millions of horsepower hours per month.

Run through power can be used on many types of train, actually it has been used on pretty much every type except locals and switchers.  Manifest, perishable, auto, intermodal, bulk and passenger trains have all operated with run through power.

At the end of the month the railroads compare records and agree on how many hphrs they owe each other.  If there is a large imbalance they will try to make up the deficit.  The imbalance can be caused by one road having more miles/time on its portion of the run through operation, or by one railroad having to use its engines only due to some operational issue on a portion of the route.  For example on UP coal trains, the UP engines were used on other roads because a UP engine had to be a leader on the areas where the UP had cab signals.  In the early days of DPU, other roads wouldn't have compatible DPU so UP engines had to be front and back on the trains to use DPU.

The ways they will pay back the horsepower hours is by increasing the number of deficit railroad engines in the run through power mix (either in that service or another run through service) or by giving the owed road engines to keep for a period of time to "pay back" the hphrs.  If railroad A owes railroad B 20 million hphrs, they will give railroad B six 4000 hp engines to use for 31 days (6 eng x 4000 hp x 31 days x 24 hrs = 17 million hphrs).  Those engines will be used in regular freight service on railroad B and could show up on any train except a run through back to railroad A.

In the video, the single UP engine on the manifest train wasn't necessarily cut off a unit train, it could have come over on a manifest train or could have been a hphrs payback engine too. 

In recent years, with PSR, railroads have cut back on run through manifest and intermodal trains, not because of the power, but because the railroads decided to stop switching blocks for other railroads.

It was extremely rare for horsepower hours to be paid back in cash.  Railroads would go to great lengths to avoid having to do that.  Pretty much, the only time that happens is when the railroad owing doesn't have engines (or engines the owed railroad wants to use) to pay back the horsepower hours.  For example, a shortline or regional that only has GP engines wouldn't be hard pressed to pay back hphrs with GP38's.

Back in the 1970's the NdeM became highly indebted to the MP for hphrs so they paid the MP back in gondolas.  The MP was buying gons made at a plant in Mexico, so the NdeM tacked on a run to pay back the hphrs.  If you ever see a picture of a black MP mill gon with white lettering and grab irons, that's one of the payback gons.

Many times on shortlines, particularly those that were spun off a class one railroad, the service agreement between the class one and the shortline allows the shortline to use the class one's engines for a period of time without accruing hphrs.  If a shortline serves a grain elevator and it takes 30 hours to get a unit train from the interchange to the elevator, loaded and back to the interchange, the class 1 might give the shortline 48 hours "free" use of the engines to use on the grain train, so no hphrs accrue unless the shortline or the elevator does something outside the scope of the agreement.

There is also a fuel adjustment on the run through power where railroads pay each other for the difference in fuel between delivery and receipt of the engine.  Railroad A gives railroad B an engine with 2500 gals in the tank.  If railroad B give it back with 1500 gals, then railroad B owes railroad A for 1000 gals of fuel, if railroad B gives it back with 3500 gals then railroad A owes railroad B for 1000 gals.  The fuel readings can be done by the engineers and reported on their timeslips or in the modern world, the AEI readers can get a fuel reading automatically.  There are also standing agreements on fuel usage, particularly on runs where the engines aren't fueled.  The trip over railroad B on a unit train move takes an average of 2000 gals, so ther is a flat charge of 2000 gals for every engine on those unit trains (that make the round trip on those trains).

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 1
railandsail

Now that is a very complete

Now that is a very complete answer/explanation !

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Explanation

I used to do all that stuff for a living.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
Tom Edwards edwardstd

Very common in my area

I live about a block from a CP line in Minnesota and if a person had to determine who owned the track based on what locomotives are seen on it, it would be anyone's guess. Just this morning a westbound manifest had four units: CSX/CP/UP/CP. There have been any number of trains that have had no CP units on them at all. Over the past few years I've seen CP, CN, UP, NS, CSX, KCS, BNSF, Ferromex, and assorted leased units.

Some local grain terminals also have made a deal with BNSF to run 100+ car unit trains, all with BNSF power but CP crews running them to the nearest BNSF interchange. Those trains normally have three units on point and one on the rear end.

A person could model this line and not have to worry about finding locomotives with the correct paint scheme. A locomotive from just about any Class 1 would do.

Tom Edwards

N scale - C&NW/M&StL - Modeling the C&NW's Alco Line

HO scale - Running on the Minnesota Central (Roundhouse Model RR Club, St. James, MN)

12" to the foot - Member of the Osceola & St. Croix Valley crew (Minnesota Transportation Museum)

Blog Index

Reply 0
Mustangok

Horsepower hours

Outstanding explanation, Dave. All I had ever heard about was tracking hours of locomotive use in order to trade said hours. Clearly there is more to it than that over simplified version.

Have the railroads gotten pretty good at this over the years? What I mean is does this happen without friction, or are there disputes about the horsepower hours and how/when they are to be repaid?

If there is any dispute, is there some agency or form of arbitration used to resolve it?

Kent B

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

HPHRs

Quote:

Have the railroads gotten pretty good at this over the years? 

I would say yes since they do it all the time for decades.

Quote:

What I mean is does this happen without friction, or are there disputes about the horsepower hours and how/when they are to be repaid?

Depends on what you mean by friction.  Most of the disputes are when an engine was interchanged, was it 4 pm or 6 pm or when one railroad doesn't have a record of receiving the engine (less of a problem now with AEI and GPS monitoring) or whether or not the engine was operable (failed or past due inspections engines aren't charged hphrs).  

The real friction isn't the accounting it's the payback.  Some of those can get heated when one railroad doesn't have excess power handy to payback engines it owes.  Generally the nuclear option is to demand cash money settlements, that ends up motivating the owing road to cough up some engines.

That being said most of the time the payback and balancing is pretty normal operation and the railroads watch it reasonably closely, they try to balance the books monthly but sometimes get a month or two behind.  In today's world with engines stored all over the place, the need for run through power or to be paid back is less urgent.

As far as disputes go, the run though agreements are legal contracts and they have dispute resolution provisions.  Since these are such long standing, basic business type practices, they rarely go to court or arbitration since they are normally pretty well set by precedent.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
Tom Edwards edwardstd

Are there disputes...

As Dave mentioned, at management level it pretty much works well. On the crew level, I know of some problems. Although I've been out of the railroad business for quite a few years, I still have friends active in the industry and it's happened more than once that they were given a locomotive from another line that won't start, won't stay running, has no AC in the summer, (I know - just open the front door and windows... ) no heat in the winter, etc... If it was a home road engine, they were usually able to get it resolved but if it was a foreign road locomotive, the local mechanics weren't too enthused about spending a lot of time and/or money to get the thing running.

Tom Edwards

N scale - C&NW/M&StL - Modeling the C&NW's Alco Line

HO scale - Running on the Minnesota Central (Roundhouse Model RR Club, St. James, MN)

12" to the foot - Member of the Osceola & St. Croix Valley crew (Minnesota Transportation Museum)

Blog Index

Reply 0
Mustangok

Good topic

I thought that was a good topic and video, Brian. The prototypes back up the modeler yet again. A ready made, real world excuse to mix in some power that you just like. 

Sometimes the foreign power is foreign. It is not uncommon to see Ferromex locomotives as part of the consist around here on both BNSF and UP main lines.

Good info from Dave and Tom.  I had to laugh about the crews and mechanics being less than pleased with other people's gear and not wanting to expend resources on it. In my former life as a tanker (think armor protected firepower not corn syrup) there was much grumbling when units did equipment swaps or loans.

Kent B

Reply 0
ctxmf74

Foreign power

At one time was not common as it is now. I recall many years ago seeing a Santa Fe CF7 on an SP coast line freight and wondering what it was doing way up here. Found out later that it was being sold to the Tourist line at Roaring Camp,  Felton Ca. ....DaveB 

Reply 0
Reply