CandOfan

As a steam modeler I use consists only rarely. If you have just one or two consists, it is easy enough to remember which consist has which (short) address.

We're now getting to the point that other people are bringing diesel lashups around, and when there are 10 or 15 consists, it's essentially impossible to remember which one is which. I can't be the only one that can't remember consist-to-address mappings in my head, and anyway even if I could, isn't this precisely what computers are really good at?

JMRI does not seem to have provisions for this. Right now we're creating fake roster entries in DecoderPro that have the roster addresses mapped to consist "names" ("Dave's three NS SD40-2's") but this is clearly a bodge that just happens to work if you don't do anything silly.

Modeling the C&O in Virginia in 1943, 1927 and 1918

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cduckworth

In my iPhone notes

I started keeping them on a sheet of paper but found it was easier to log and find them in the Notes app on my iPhone. 

Charlie Duckworth
Modeling the MP Bagnell Branch and RI in Eldon, Missouri 

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PennCentral99

Keep it Simple

I use the last 2 digits of the cab number on the lead loco. I have 3 consists. One lead loco cab is 9807 (it’s long address), the consist number is 07. Another lead loco is 1073, that consist is 73 and another lead loco is 580, so the consist is 80.

If you have 10-15 consists, just make sure they’re not duplicated.

Thanks, Terry

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joef

Which DCC system?

Which DCC system is this you're using? It doesn't happen to be a Digitrax system, does it?

Joe Fugate​
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CandOfan

Sprog

I'm using a Sprog, driven by a Raspberry Pi. The throttles are all either phones or phone-equivalents such as a TCS UWT-100, ie they all get access through WiThrottle.

Personally, I think that the ideal solution would be to extend DecoderPro so that it has an "upper layer" that maintains a roster of consists. For individual locos, the various WiThrottle clients (WiThrottle on Apple, Engine Driver on Android, UWT-100) pull the JMRI roster and we can scroll through that. I'd be nice if the consists were accessible in a similar manner.

Modeling the C&O in Virginia in 1943, 1927 and 1918

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David Husman dave1905

NCE

I have an NCE system and back when I had consists I never kept track of consist numbers.

Of course now I run all steam so I don't have consists.  No worries.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

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barr_ceo

I run a Digitrax system...

... and my consist addresses are all the lead engine number. I have no permanent consists, and simply build what I need every time I run, mixing and matching whatever I want. It's dead simple, and takes only a few seconds. It's prototypical, as I can assemble a consist from available locomotives, moving each into position, even building trains with DPU from sub-units and fitting them all together.

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marcfo68

. . .

"  Personally, I think that the ideal solution would be to extend DecoderPro so that it has an "upper layer" that maintains a roster of consists.  "

This has been requested a few times but it has always been rejected so you are not about to see this in JMRI. There was, again, a long debate on this just this year and many a reason to not implement.

I suggested those who want a "Consist" field  use the ' Roster Custom Attribute'  which is available to them and not many are aware of.

It is not a " automatically populated " field.  It does not take the required information from CV19 but it does give you a field to enter the consist value manually in the Roster

 

mage(11).png 

Marc

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dennis461

Engine Driver

I use DCC++, Decoder pro, a wireless handheld tablet with EngineDriver throttle.

It lists both loco #'s and the consist # on the same line

 

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joef

That’s why I asked which DCC system

Quote:

I have an NCE system and back when I had consists I never kept track of consist numbers.

That’s why I asked which DCC system. With an NCE system, it maps loco addresses to consists for you, so all you need to do is dial up any loco number in the consist and off you go. You never need to know the consist number itself.

But I don’t think that’s true for all DCC systems. Based on what I’ve seen, the weakest consisting feature set is Digitrax, which is why I asked.

Joe Fugate​
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

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marcfo68

. . .

" You never need to know the consist number itself. "

And this is one reason why the " Consist " is not a displayed field in the DecoderPro Roster. it was too dynamic, and must be read each time for the table/roster to be of any accuracy.

Take an NCE consist to another Command Station  and you wonder why the thing will not budge... and you have no idea what the Consist address is. Since there is a value in CV19 you are not aware of , entering the engine number gets you zilch.

I would disagree, simply based on this, that the Digitrax Consist feature set is not all that weak.

Marc

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Chris VanderHeide cv_acr

Dial-a-consist

Quote:

With an NCE system, it maps loco addresses to consists for you, so all you need to do is dial up any loco number in the consist and off you go.

Correction - lead loco, not "any" loco. If you select a middle loco it selects that loco, not the consist.

Although NCE consisting also does a neat trick where during setup it prompts for the first and last engines, and then the "rest" in the middle, so it tracks the lead engine on either end. You can dial up a consist using either lead loco, and it'll drive the consist with the selected engine as "forward".

You can manually set consist addresses when creating them, or let the system auto-pick one. But when selecting a consist to operate, you don't ever need to know what it actually is. Just select the lead unit #.

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Chris VanderHeide cv_acr

CV19 set

Quote:

Take an NCE consist to another Command Station  and you wonder why the thing will not budge... and you have no idea what the Consist address is. Since there is a value in CV19 you are not aware of , entering the engine number gets you zilch.

And it's a stupid easy fix, just use the "DEL[ete engine from consist]" button on the controller to clear it, Done in 10 seconds.

Or if you really need to, set CV19=0 on the loco to reset, which is doing the same function, but manually...

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keystonefarm

Consists

I use NCE. I have currently 72 consists set up on the Buffalo line. I have no need to know the consist number as the command station does that for me. If I take a consist to another RR I simply break up the consist here and reconsist at the other RR. Digitrax ( which I had for about 6 years ) does require you to know the consist number to access any advanced consist. This requires some sort of ID somewhere for the engineer to know what number to use. NCE is the simplest and easier way to consist and still has more capacity than the new Digitrax systems. The old Slot Max is what killed Digitrax for me a few years back and the new method doesn't fix the old issues. ---   Ken 

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barr_ceo

I agree with Marc

... consists are held in the command station  in Di9gitrax consisting, and the consist is under the address of whatever locomotive is selected first.

For example, select loco 4201, then 4202 and add it to 4201... then select 4204, add it, 4206 and add it.... all four now consisted at 4201's address, and can b handed off to any other  throttle (eve the old UT1)

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joef

How do you know which end?

Quote:

... consists are held in the command station in Digitrax consisting, and the consist is under the address of whatever locomotive is selected first.

If you have a string of say 3 or 4 locos and the end locos each face opposite directions, how do you know which end is the front of the Digitrax consist?

Joe Fugate​
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railandsail

Non-sound Decoders

Are their (relatively cheap) simple non-sound decoders that will consist with a variety of full featured decoders that might already be installed in a leading steam engine. By simple, I am referring to a purely motor decoder without lighting functions, etc, etc ??

Speed matching of upmost importance.

 

 

 

 

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CandOfan

What about the Digitrax

What about the Digitrax DZ123? They're about $20.

Modeling the C&O in Virginia in 1943, 1927 and 1918

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barr_ceo

If you have a string of say 3

Quote:

If you have a string of say 3 or 4 locos and the end locos each face opposite directions, how do you know which end is the front of the Digitrax consist?

It's simple.... only the lead loco address is displayed continuously.   There'salso a direction arrow that shows forward or reverse movement.  you also set the nmovement direction of individual locos in the consist when you make it up, just as you would for a prototype. It's really farm simpler and more logical than many people make it out to be.

 

(Sorryn for any typos I missed correcting. I had sur4gury on my right hand and the mfingers aren weak and numb, making typing ndifficult...)

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Prof_Klyzlr

In order of appearance... (dis-similar mechs speed matching)

Quote:

Are there (relatively cheap) simple non-sound decoders

Yes

Quote:

 that will consist

Yes
(to "Consist" simply means they will use and respect CV19, and operate "as a CV19-defined group" in consequence, nothing more or less)

Quote:

 with a variety of full featured decoders

Yes, At a Basic "CV19 consist address is common, both decoder will move" level
(see above)
 

Quote:

Speed matching of upmost importance.

Then, to quote Samuel L Jackson in "Die Hard 3",

Quote:

You are about to have a     Very    Bad     Day....

- Achieving Initial Speed Matching between any Given Combination of DIS-similar decoders/mechs WILL be an intensely Manual Exercise

- The differing geartrains and wheel dia between the "Ceremonial Lead Loco" and it's "Pusher" WILL make this Not-Simple

- The moment you change "Ceremonial Lead Locos",
the "Speed matching config" of the "pusher" WILL have to be changed
(JMRI Roster and/or Disciplined Rigourous Documentation of Validated CV2/5/6 Settings For-The-Win!
Your Motive-Power Hostler is going to hate you....).

Assuming a Large Wide Range of "Ceremonial Lead Locos" which need "assistance",
it's arguably better to create multiple "Pushers", each optimised/matched to a given Lead Loco
.
(Again, even "Lead Locos" from the same manuf, with identical geartrains + motors + decoders
will NOT be the same if the Drive Wheel Dia is Different!)

Each of the major DCC Sound Decoder manufs have "Motor + Lights Only" decoders, which are the most-likely to "simply match" their Sound-decoder brothers. 

IE

- Soundtraxx TSU2 < --> Soundtraxx MC2H
- ESU Loksound V5 < --> ESU LokPilot V5
- TCS WOWSteam < --> TCS M1

Locos with QSI or other decoders are harder, as no equivalent "Motor + light only" decoders exist.
In such cases, an ESU LokPilot or TCS M1 is possibly the best "general match" option,
as their auto-motor tuning allows basic CV2/5/6 "3 point" matching to likely get "close enough for disco"...

This is not a trivial mountain to climb,
esp with the ammount of "freely swapping pusher units between locos" you seem to be hinting at, 
Wishing you every shred of luck on your quest, you will need it...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

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AlexW

Consists

The OP must be the guy who posted over on the JMRI list. This is a tough question to answer, as most layouts use their system's consisting features, and then grab the top or end of those consists with a WiThrottle throttle, or else just use in-throttle consisting when a consist is needed. I personally don't keep consists active when I'm not using them, but I also mostly operate single locomotives.

Quote:

That’s why I asked which DCC system. With an NCE system, it maps loco addresses to consists for you, so all you need to do is dial up any loco number in the consist and off you go. You never need to know the consist number itself.

But I don’t think that’s true for all DCC systems. Based on what I’ve seen, the weakest consisting feature set is Digitrax, which is why I asked.

With NCE, you shouldn't remember the consist address, or use that address space, as it could end up with a collision with the system. NCE's consisting is uniquely powerful, but also rather complex to properly implement. Most of the time I've seen functions all messed up due to not setting CV21/22 correctly. Digitrax's is pretty much the same as other systems', which doesn't work for some advanced use cases, like with ProtoThrottle.

What I find to be interesting is that while historically NCE marketed themselves as easier to use (which was true at one point), their consisting is rather complicated to get working properly, but is extremely powerful for advanced users, while Digitrax's is much more simple and straightforward for 95% of users, but also much less powerful for advanced users.

TCS is finally going to do consisting right, with double-ended command-station based consisting that works like NCE's, but without the added complexity and support issues that come from CV19-based consisting. It will be even easier to use than Digitrax's consisting, but with the features of NCE's. Until TCS comes out with their system, consisting in some advanced applications is NCE's one advantage over other systems.

Quote:

If you have a string of say 3 or 4 locos and the end locos each face opposite directions, how do you know which end is the front of the Digitrax consist?

It's guess and check. If you try one end and it's not the top, you try the other. Why Digitrax didn't fix their dumb consisting in the DCS240, I don't know, as it's all command station based, so it should be fixable in the command station.

To answer the OP's question, I've seen it done as last two cab numbers with dummy entries in JMRI, but that was a private layout, that would probably turn into a mess in a club setting. I've otherwise never seen "regular" (non-NCE) advanced consisting used, people just use whatever the system uses, or consist in-throttle, and I doubt that most people even understand the difference.

On speed matching, why do people make it out to be so difficult? I got a speedometer, now it takes me a couple of minutes. I get CV2 to barely creep at SS1, set CV6 to correspond to 30mph at SS63, and CV5 to 60mph at SS126. I'm not sure that I'll be able to speed match dissimilar decoders for use with ProtoThrottle, but for free running equipment, it's easy.

-----

Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern

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Chris VanderHeide cv_acr

Decoder Compatibility

Quote:

simple non-sound decoders that will consist with a variety of full featured decoders

Yes. All of them. That's why DCC is a standard.

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Russ Bellinis

If you are nearing the limit of what your steam loco & powered

tender can pull, speed matching may not be that important.  A friend of mine belonged to the La Mesa club in San Diego before he went to work for Athearn.  He told me once that, "If you have a heavy enough load behind or in front of your locomotives (in the case of a pusher) the speed will match.  It is only if you are running light with multiple units for show that you need to worry about speed matching."  He was running on the La Mesa club layout before and after the advent of dcc.

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joef

Varied opinions

Quote:

What I find to be interesting is that while historically NCE marketed themselves as easier to use (which was true at one point), their consisting is rather complicated to get working properly, but is extremely powerful for advanced users, while Digitrax's is much more simple and straightforward for 95% of users, but also much less powerful for advanced users.

TCS is finally going to do consisting right, with double-ended command-station based consisting that works like NCE's, but without the added complexity and support issues that come from CV19-based consisting.

Wow, there is so much to unpack in this opinion and I think we need to do that so any newcomers will realize that opinions can vary and they can't always be seen as the one-and-only-way things work.

Here's the problem -- no opinion is without bias. An opinion represents what one person thinks is ideal and another opinion can be quite different and represent what *that* person thinks is ideal.

Let's start here: I don't agree with most of that quote and my opinion is quite different. Does that make one opinion right and one opinion wrong? No, just that any given opinion represents what that person thinks is ideal and the other very different opinion represents what the other person thinks is ideal. In other words, each person has very different trade-offs they consider to be ideal.

So let's get into it.

In my experience on a large home layout over 20 years of operation (4 yrs with Lenz, 7 yrs with EasyDCC, and 9 years with NCE), I have found NCE's consisting to be by far the simplest and most trouble-free of all the systems I have used. I have not used Digitrax on my own layout, but in reading the manual and in operating on a large layout using Digitrax many times, I have found Digitrax and its slot management / consisting to be my least favorite.

I also find the throttle-based consisting in the TCS throttles to be likely the least friendly of all (and we have yet to see how TCS's command station consisting will work in actual practice, so to declare it the winner is premature). Consider - a consist that's tied to a throttle will be extremely confusing for most modelers when they get the train later but don't happen to pick the same throttle. Why wont it move? Now which throttle had the consist again? On my layout with 10 throttles, I would make throttle-based consisting off-limits. Too dang confusing.

My opinion comes from 20 years of operating on a large home layout with DCC consists. I'd like to hear AlexW's actual experience with these various systems and why he feels almost 180 degrees different than me. I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm just trying to understand the tradeoffs he has because they're clearly very different from mine.

Joe Fugate​
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AlexW

Function controls

Quote:

I also find the throttle-based consisting in the TCS throttles to be likely the least friendly of all (and we have yet to see how TCS's command station consisting will work in actual practice, so to declare it the winner is premature). Consider - a consist that's tied to a throttle will be extremely confusing for most modelers when they get the train later but don't happen to pick the same throttle. Why wont it move? Now which throttle had the consist again? On my layout with 10 throttles, I would make throttle-based consisting off-limits. Too dang confusing.

So I think it is fair enough to say that we should wait and see with TCS's CS105, as I don't currently have one, and I have not heard directly from anyone who does about how the consisting works (I don't know if there are NDAs involved right now, since it is still pre-production). It certainly sounds very promising if they implement it as they have described, and with the same ease of use of in-throttle consisting on the UWT-100.

The challenge is that most people using DCC seem to have no clue how consisting works to begin with, so yes, it could be more confusing to do in-throttle consisting. However, while TCS seems to have coined or at least popularized the term "in-throttle consisting" with the UWT-100, the basic functionality has existed in WiThrottle and Engine Driver for the past 11 years, so tons of people do it on the regular basis, and probably don't even really understand what they are doing or how it works. From what I've seen, people using throttle apps tend to be more casual modelers, the railfan types, or people running on club layouts, not doing serious operations (I'm sure there are counterexamples), so they may not have as much of a problem.

Confusion about being tied to the a throttle is sort of similar to the confusion caused by NCE's CV19 consisting when a consist doesn't get cleared from the decoders for one reason or another. There are also some pretty cool advanced use cases for in-throttle consisting like DPU and trailing units on locals, where you can consist consists together.

Quote:

 My opinion comes from 20 years of operating on a large home layout with DCC consists. I'd like to hear AlexW's actual experience with these various systems and why he feels almost 180 degrees different than me. I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm just trying to understand the tradeoffs he has because they're clearly very different from mine.

So most of the layouts that I operate on use NCE, I have Digitrax, and I have operated quite a bit on a layout with ESU. I have also used Lenz, although that layout is all steam, so no consists. My major observation on NCE layouts is that most of the time, the CV21/22 are set totally wrong, and the lighting and functions are all kinds of FUBAR. Yes, for the advanced user, you can do some unique things with NCE-style consists, but for most users, they can't or can't be bothered to even get them to work correctly.

As long as you don't use brakes, and are OK breaking and re-making the consist at the end of a turn, Digitrax's consisting is really fast and easy, and usually results in proper function controls. If you want anything more, you're SOL. The other issue that I have not seen personally, but have heard of many times is the CV19 issue, where people either don't know or forget to clear CV19 from locomotives consisted on NCE, and then wonder why the locomotive makes sounds, but can't move.

I'm not particularly a fan of either Digitrax nor NCE at this point, but I've been particularly critical of most of the architecture of the NCE system. While their consisting method is uniquely powerful, it should NOT be the default, as the rather complex consisting and function controls are rather contradictory to the their whole marketing shtick of being easier to use, which compared to Digitrax was true.... 15 years ago. Their consisting is, however, a selling point for advanced users who want the double-ended consisting and function controls, and configure CV21/22 properly for such use on their layout.

It seems to me that the consisting systems of Digitrax, NCE, CVP, Lenz, and MRC are stuck in the computational limitations of mid-1990s technology, or retaining direct compatibility with such technology, while the more modern European systems that have far more processing and memory capability just don't care because they don't do a lot of MU operations in Europe, so it's a relatively unimportant feature.

If TCS implements their consisting system well, as the first modern North American DCC system, they have the opportunity to finally do consisting right, with the simplicity of doing it all in the command station and not needing CV 21/22 programming or having issues with CV19, but at the same time offering the ability to swap cabs and have granular function control for sound and braking features.

I really don't know why Digitrax hasn't made their consists double-ended at least, that would be fairly easy, adding granular function control might be a bit more complex, and not doable on the DT500 and lower series throttles, but surely a DCS240 and DT602 have the ability to handle such functionality.

However, consisting is just one part of the functionality of a DCC system. The proprietary radio systems are various levels of lousy, the system throttles leave a LOT to be desired in most cases. Digitrax has unfortunately abandoned potentiometers, NCE actually had a good design in the ProCab, but hasn't updated it in 25 years, so TCS did that for them in the UWT-100. NCE's polling lag is much worse and more noticeable with sound decoders, and the ease of use benefits that they got from their polled bus design with dumb terminal throttles in 1995 are long since obsolete. I like my UT4Rs, but otherwise, the Digitrax, Lenz, and NCE system throttles leave a lot to be desired, as do the proprietary radio systems.

What I've found recently is that the DCC system matters a lot less than before, as with JMRI handling the throttles and programming, the interaction with the system itself is minimal to nonexistent. However, with good JMRI integration, and good consisting, TCS could reverse this notion, and return some utility to the DCC system beyond being a proverbial (or sometimes literal) black box that converts commands from JMRI into DCC packets.

-----

Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern

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