Understand the context

 Don't take things out of context. I said that many of the hits that Facebook provides to things like the NMRA website are likely not "true modelers" due to the nature of Facebook and the size of it's user community. I never said that there could not be true or serious modelers on Facebook because they can be found anywhere to some degree.My position is not based on the quality of the modelers or the ease of using Facebook, it's simply about staying close to the hobby's  roots and  supporting a Joe Fugate instead of a Mark Zuckerberg run business....DaveB

It's true of the web as well

What you’re describing is called a “bounce” … someone visits your site and they leave immediately because once they see it more closely, they realize they’re not interested. Even the general internet has a lot of bounces. Fully half the hits MRH gets to its website are bounces. 

The person visits one page on the site and they immediately leave … they don’t generate a second click that’s still something on the site. All website stats trackers factor out bounces, including Facebook.

Facebook allows me to target my ads by sending them to people based on their previous activity. That way I can make sure the traffic I’m generating is to folks who have already shown an interest in scale model railroading … so called serious folks.

I can’t easily do that with MRH … in other words, we can’t show a specific magazine ad to folks who have already indicated an interest in that area. Everyone sees every magazine ad.

Facebook, Google, and YouTube all provide for targeted advertising based on interest. MRH can’t do that unless we set up a lot of tracking on every IP address to tell us your clicking patterns.

So right away, your contention that a visitor to the MRH website must be serious is flawed. A visitor to a Facebook page driven there by a Facebook ad has already been prequalified and is a lot less likely to bounce. Again, you’re proving you don’t really know the behind the scene details of what’s going on.

...

Here you go assuming this support is something that matters to the modern model railroader. 

The thing is, they ARE supporting model railroad businesses, however, just open your ears and listen to what they're saying like Joe did.  They're watching Ken Patterson.  Ken has been playing the Facebook/Youtube game, taking the content To Them through products that suggest content to people based upon their previous activity.  And then there are a lot of people who would rather devote their online time and effort towards developing their own brand (which they can do, through Youtube and Facebook) instead of supporting and following what already exists.

And there you go again with that "True Modeler" BS.

Most Facebook users don't give a single damn about what Zuckerberg gets out of their Facebook activity, they're simply enjoying their content.

You would better support a Joe Fugate style business via Facebook than you ever would by trying to keep things close to their roots - roots that by this point are either mostly dying off or long dead.  New users aren't joining the forums anymore, they're hopping on Facebook and Youtube and finding people there instead.  They're also developing their hobby without the atmosphere of the establishment, opinions they may not necessary want in the first place.

There are people who are appalled that the NMRA might chase the Facebook community for future membership and use Facebook as a means of keeping in touch with True Model Railroaders.

Facebook modelers groups

I'm on a couple of Facebook groups just to see what's so great about FB. For one thing there is no way a thread can be followed without having to wade through many comments. There is no way, at least that I have found, in finding something you'd like to look at again sometime in the future. I think modelers go to FB because they don't have to do any work in posting pictures. It's shoot a picture with your smart phone and upload it. And it shows, out of focus and poor lighting being the worst cases. Then there are the videos modelers post. I won't even mantion what I think of those. Might interest a five year old.

I'll take the forums any day over FB if I had to chose. 

Bernd

...

This is true. When you see it, you have to save it.

Scope

The problem is that Facebook's footprint IN THE HOBBY is so huge that you will never compete as far as scope, you just provide a small, curated slice of information and provide more depth on those limited, curated topics.  I am involved in waaay more dicussions and get 50 times more information helpful to my modeling off of Facebook groups than I do MRH.  Not saying that there is anything wrong with MRH, its just you might publish an article on an area of my interest once every 5 years, while on various Facebook groups I can get 10 bits of information a week.  And yes I agree that the spread of experience and ability is way broader on Facebook than MRH, and the amount of chaff that has to sifted through is MUCH, MUCH greater Facebook (the benefit of a curated format on MRH), but the actual amount of information I can glean from Facebook is larger.   Its sorta the difference between looking for a couple Easter eggs on a putting green and 100 Easter eggs on a football field.  You find the Easter eggs sooner and easier on the putting green, but if you can spend the time searching you can find more on the football field.

Forums vs social media

Forums and social media are both chronologically organized content, although a forum includes the ability to segregate content by topic / categories, which is helpful.

Social media sites tend to have just one combined discussion thread called the timeline. That means stuff comes and goes quickly. It's meant for easy quick communication and it's near worthless as an archive.

At least a forum allows narrowing down the discussion thread to a topic / category if you want to search back in time.

A forum is not ideal for archiving either. For that, a Wiki is ideal. MRH kicked around the idea of a wiki, but that takes a lot of elbow grease to develop and a lot of other more pressing things have intervened and the wiki idea got tabled.

If you can't have a wiki, then second best is to at least have a nice forum search ability, which we do have with the MRH forum.

Could Facebook and U-Tube be going away?

I heard through the grape vine that FB and YouTube are on life support right now. There's going to be a new media platform launched come next year. That's as far as I'm going. If your interested do the research.

Bernd

......

Both services would be able to aptly paraphrase Mark Twain. "The news of my demise are greatly exaggerated."

Short of one service buying the other out, they're going be around for a long time yet.  It took maybe a decade for Myspace to finally sunset after Facebook took over the social media space, and even then, Myspace is still out there and Facebook (and Youtube) are far more robust than Myspace ever was.

You can search facebook

You can search facebook groups as well. And I have with some small success. It isn't as easy as it is on a forum, but it isn't impossible.

I use facebook model railroad (and prototype) groups for the dopamine hit of pictures. I've seen more pictures of people's actual model railroads in a week on facebook than in a year on this site and THAT makes all the difference. MR is a visual medium. Facebook is also good for niches. groups like the Proto-freelance folks that used to be on yahoo groups simply stopped posting and are now all on facebook.

Many niche forums are also largely dead while there is plenty of activity from those same folks on Facebook. 

Bernd, I can't tell if you are making a joke or actually believe those companies are going away due to a new startup.

rest assured they are not going anywhere. it is possible that Facebook could get broken up by the government, but I wouldn't put any money on that bet right now. 

Ken Patterson & Lionel Strang - model railroading promoters

Want to get your product some serious buzz? Get Ken Patterson to show it on a What's Neat or What's Neat This Week, or get interviewed by Lionel (or have someone being interviewed by Lionel mention something) about your product. 

Ken's What's Neat This Week videos on YoutTube are seen by up to 7 to 8 thousand people who are willing to put 30+ minutes of their life on hold each week to watch them:

The What's Neat videos on MRH's YouTube channel each month do up to 5 times that over a 3 month period (that's my little fire truck video with the 1,700 hits there):

As far as I know, Lionel has never released his download or listening numbers. It's possible that between iTunes, Google Podcast, Libsyn, and wherever else the A Modeler's Life podcast is found, it's near impossible to come up with trustworthy numbers. But he has mentioned talking to marketing folks and saying that he gets around 10,000 downloads a month, which apparently sits him well in the middle of the established podcasters - nowhere near the monsters like Mike Rowe (3.6M downloads in Feb 2018) - but also far above some guys talking about the world of GI Joe products (WOJM: What's On Joe Mind - 46 subscribers). Lionel's reach is extended through a fan created group "Fans of A Modeler's Life Podcast" on Facebook. 

But the point is - either of those guys mentions, or has mentioned, a product on their show, it generates a lot of interest - Ken's mentioning of a Korea Brass track cleaning locomotive (not a cheap item) resulted in it selling out, within the week if I remember correctly. Ken gets the advertising on his show he does because he sells products. 

Lionel promoted Dave Abeles' Onondaga Cutoff layout and his first book on signaling systems from Kalmbach, and it sold out (3,500 copies) in about 3 weeks, setting a record for a Kalmbach train book in sales as I understand it. miniprints got it's first boost on NMRAx (which is based out of Facebook) I think, and I hope my First Look did him some good as well, but I think it really accelerated when Lionel and crew started talking about it, eventually interviewing Bernard Hellen. miniprint's "Little Lionel" figure of Lionel cost between $10 and $35, depending on the scale. All proceeds went to the cancer center Lionel supports and Bernard wrote them a check for over CAD$2k. That's a lot of figures. And Lionel's belief in social networking's positive effect on the hobby is known to anyone who has talked to or listened to him for five minutes. 

Social networking is supporting the hobby. It's helping get the word out, both with and without advertising, about new products and companies that are being given a better chance to succeed through exposure than they have ever had in history. 

So... what was this rant in response to? Heck if I know, but I thought it fit in a thread on Social Media and model railroading. 

Well, there's the "metaverse"

Well, there's the "metaverse" (note I'm using the LC "m" here, and speaking generically).

I've been in the metaverse of Second Life (SL) since 2006. It's a great playground, with all user-created content and it doesn't trak me wherever I go on the web. It's "social", from the standpoint of having tens of thousands of people online at any particular time. You can do almost anything in SL. Build houses, castles, forests, ride motorcycles, horses, dragons, drive cars, play cards, visit rocket parks built to scale, and yes, even build and ride trains.... but it's not model railroading. If you saw the movie "Ready Player One", SL is the real Oasis. and has been since... Hmmm...   2004, I think? Zuck is late to the party!

Zuck doesn't want to "build" the metaverse, he wants to commercialize it, force it into his image of what it should be, and dominate it. He's the "Sorrento" of the real life Oasis, wanting to take over the metaverse and make it Meta, throwing advertising over 90% of the screen. To him, the metaverse is a waste of cycles if he can't make money off of it, and he's willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish that.

Two of everything

There's an old joke about someone who needs two of every type of business. One that he can patronize, and one that he can refuse to patronize.

Facebook is a thing I won't use.

FB = niche groups

There's a lot of niche groups on Facebook that are a wealth of knowledge for modelers. And I'm not just talking typical MR hobby type stuff.

Historical societies, "do you remember when.." airbrush groups, etc.

If I have a question about a Badger Patriot 105 airbrush, I'm not going to post a question here ( it might get answered in 48-72 hours if I'm lucky). Post same question on the Badger FB group and I've got answers in minutes much less hours. So I'm going to the source. Same with the flip side. 

Say I discover a cool picture of Redmond,WA ca 1970 of the depot in Redmond with a locomotive in front. Will I post it here? Maybe. But more likely in a group that will be able to use that information.

For instance, just last night on one of my groups a person asked a very specific location signal question. I had the answer in a few minutes. If they had posted the same thing here, one I might not have seen it ( notifications can both be a blessing and curse) or the question might have been so deeply buried in a topic I would never see it.

BTW, I would consider this forum social media...

@ YoHo

Not joking. There's more behind the scenes happening than what we see. Zuck spent his money in the wrong spot, at the wrong time. He has a target on his back. It's all about censoring. Same holds true for Twitter and U-tube.

https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/donald-trump-is-launching-a-new-social-network-called-truth-social/

Bernd

...

Bernd...

It's not happening.

Don't read too much into it.

Choices

Well, I guess there is something for everyone. What works for me may not work for you.

As for me......

I will never support ANYTHING that has any connection to facebook. Mark Suckerberg hitched his wagon to the wrong group and I have no use for him,them or their political viewpoints.

I have let my subscription to Model Railroader expire and I will not renew. It seems their content has deteriorated and they want you to subscribe to this or buy that  to get info that used to be included their magazine. Some articles are short of info and to get that info you need to purchase a $20 Kalmbach book on that subject. Not me.

I have let my subscription to Model Railroad Craftsman expire. While they have a great magazine, there is just not enough info that I enjoy (steam era) included, thus making some issues pretty much stock for a fireplace. I have a hard time justifying the cost to content ratio (for my interest). If you are one who models diesels and later rolling stock, I think they fill this niche very well.

I have chose Model Railroad Hobbyist along with the Running Extra as my go to source of entertainment. There seems to be something for me in every issue. Joe does it right. Thank you sir. Plus the forum here is great for "airing out" of our thoughts, comments and ideas. MRH fills my needs better than the rest.

I also subscribe to another forum, Railroad Line Forums. It is, in my opinion similar but different from the MRH forum and offers me another platform for sharing and experiencing model railroading. Forums are my lifeline to the hobby as my nearest hobby shop is about 180 miles away (one way) and I have only met one other person who is a model railroader in my area of west Texas in the past six years.

I quit watching Ken Patterson about 6  or 8 months ago and regained that time to do something productive. I used to watch his show but as advertising began to creep in and, in my opinion, model info became a lesser point, I had to bale. Plus if he has something interesting, I can read about it in MRH.

My choices make me happy. I hope your choices do the same for you. Enjoy your freedom of choice while we still have some left.

  "But the point is - either

You look at it from a product pushing view point while I look at it from a modeler sharing info with other modelers view point. I'm a hobbyist not an ad man. For me MRH had the best balance of general info along with specialized niches. I can find info on any subject I'm likely to need on here along with leads to find more on other sites if necessary.  An expensive brass track cleaner is not "neat " to me, but showing someone how to make a track cleaner from an old boxcar and some scraps of masonite is.....DaveB

As of our last reader survey ...

.

Get real.

New social sites start up every day and none of them get the traction of an established monster like facebook.

And that's not going to magically change just because of Donald Trump, but now you've made this political.

Let's not get derailed, please

It used to be having differing views was okay, we could still be friends -- and we realized folks didn't live in a vacuum. Let's hope that's still true and we can get back to having fun with trains and not get derailed ... let's just move on and not get sidetracked.

As YoHo said...

I also mainly use facebook and other social media platforms when it comes to looking up model railroad stuff. I occasionally check the recent posts on this forum from time to time. Facebook is almost updated daily with new content, where forums aren't. I think this is just because of the ease of use of social media in general and because our phones and cameras are tied effortlessly to social media. It's just a couple screen taps and you have something posted in no time. It's much different when it comes to forums. 

I honestly find forums to be too antiquated and difficult to navigate and use. Even when I do eventually learn how to use one forum, other forums work different. It's not that way for social media. It's all pretty streamlined and you don't have to learn a new forums quirks or even search multiple forums to find content because it's all right there. Not to mention some social media sites will allow you to post on multiple sites at once, making it that much easier. 

I don't really like to read threads as much as I like to look though images with captions. I guess that comes from the many years I spent on imageboards. It's also harder to contact people on forums than it is on social media. Social media will give you notifications on your phone where most forums don't offer such an option. They can send you alerts via email, but a lot of the time those alerts end up in the spam folder and you end up missing out.

I also find there is a lot less model railroad "philosophy" on social media. There are rarely threads or topics about the hobby dying or what makes or doesn't make a true model railroader. There is rarely discussions where people bust out a dictionary and try to hyper define terms like they do on here. I'm not saying it never happens on social media, I'm saying it happens a hell of a lot less. I just want to read peoples modeling successes and failures and learn neat tips a tricks, I don't want to read about the deeper dictionary meaning of the hobby. Nor do I want to argue about what is art and what is a true modeler. I just don't care about anything outside of the actual modeling aspect of the hobby.

Yes, I get it

That's why we're moving to our new forum software. On the new forum, you can visit it once in a while, tag the discussions that look interesting and follow them. You will get emails with the posts. You can reply to the emails with your response. No more need to "navigate the forum" except once in a great while -- the rest is all emails and your email replies look like regular forum posts.

I get why social media sites work so well -- they are highly optimized for mobile devices and sharing photos. For at the moment conversation, they're great. But they totally suck for archiving information unless you know how to use hashtags. I bet most modelers don't understand hashtags.

Our new forum facelift should help -- it's a lot easier to use with a phone or tablet. Plus you can even do a live chat with someone online, not unlike how FB messenger works. Pretty handy if you want to ask an immediate question of someone online.

What I don’t understand…. I

What I don’t understand…. I get that some people don’t want info about them getting out there.  But you don’t HAVE to give out info on social media.  Go set up an email account for your Social media then use that address to set up a social media account.  Then you can access social media keep your info private.  
As for a company making a profit from you, well something has to pay for it.  Even places like this do Adds and other things related to the forum to help with the cost. 
 

If the issue is politics.. then I get you may not support the politics of a given company and I miss the days when companies stayed out of politics but today most companies are political to ne degree or another so good luck avoiding supporting a company that is political.

So i am confused by this attitude.  
And as I have said elsewhere I am looking for specific  info and I have found things on social media that simply is not available elsewhere.  I have talked with Historical societies several different forums and visited the National Park Headquarters and talked with the park historian as well as physically visited the site, checked the federal government info, checked the state info and the county and still couldn’t find photos of the Bridge or two buildings i am trying yo fin info on.  But I have gotten a good photo of the bridge and two bad photos of the buildings (and even bad photos are better then no photos)

I will take that info anywhere I can get it.  If Bozo the clown has the info I need I will sign up for his fan club.  So I don’t under the issues / resistance to Social media.

-Doug M