Interesting Opinions on Ever-Increasing Trottle Control Functions

railandsail Prolific poster 8,782 posts

railandsail

This one caught my attention

This one caught my attention in particular,

https://groups.io/g/NCE-DCC/message/121549

Quote:

I wonder how many of you that are concerned about tens or hundreds of sound controls are actually operators rather than train runners. Nothing wrong with just running trains and adjusting sounds as you go but in an operating environment, my experience is that most sounds are turned off or reduced in volume to the point where you have to be within close range of the locomotive to hear it. Many sounds are just not appropriate in certain situations and do not have to be accessed while running a locomotive. Fireman Fred is not very useful on an oil fired steamer. Cab radio sounds have little use on a 1940s era railroad. Yard engineers are too busy to operate coupler sound effects. On operating railroads that simulate many miles of territory, you shouldn't be hearing the diesel idling in the next town! I can't imagine why you would want easy access and status display of 20+ sound effects while you are running a locomotive in an operational environment. On the Castle Rock and Pacific we operate with a crew of 10 to 15. Once the session starts, no one is sitting in the lounge - everyone except the dispatcher has throttle in hand controlling a locomotive. When I set up my locomotives (all steam) I turn down the volume on the chuff, bell and whistle. All of the others are turned off or down to minimum value. I suspect that some of the yard engineers use F8 to turn off the sound entirely. It is a fairly large railroad but still with a dozen or more locomotives running you don't need dozens of sound effects. Also, most operators are only looking at their throttle when acquiring or releasing a locomotive. Once running, they never look at their throttle - they are watching their loco, checking lineup, checking switch lists, locating industries and cars, communicating with the dispatcher and other operators, checking signals and planning their next move. The throttle is not where the action is for operators. It is not, as one suggested, that operators are afraid of new technology but rather that we already have more than we need.

Dave...

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

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jeffshultz MRH Staff 7,978 posts

jeffshultz

I'm not going to totally disagree...

Non-automatic sound effects are definitely low on my priority list. Functions that are operationally significant, such as brakes and lights, are near the top.

Jeff Shultz - MRH Technical Assistant
DCC Features Matrix/My blog index
Modeling a fictional GWI shortline combining three separate areas into one freelance-ish railroad.

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Janet N Prolific poster 1,129 posts

Janet N

Likely to run solo forever so, sound isn't high priority for me

I'm unlikely to join a group of operators or a club, simply because I have a lot of different hobby interests in my spare time. So I've got a single sound-equipped DCC loco out of a small fleet of 6 currently equipped, and 3 other silent decoders waiting to be installed. Ambient sound effects aren't at all important to me. Probably because I was trained by the Army to focus on the job at hand, and once you established which radio that the whining fan was in, you kind of blocked out all the other noises that were present.

There was too much ambient sound anyway, and now years later with partial hearing loss and tinnitus, I've got all the noises I need inside my head already.

I'm enjoying the sound-equipped loco, but I think I fall into the lights and brakes being more important to me than an entire fleet of sound-equipped locomotives, because more than one would just be distracting background noise rather than an atmospheric enhancement. In my case, anyway; I recognize it's more important to others, and they should do what pleases them.

Janet N.

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Douglas Meyer Prolific poster 2,043 posts

Douglas Meyer

Don’t confuse a better

Don’t confuse a better interface and a more modern system with wanting accesss to more and more functions on a decoader. The two are not necessarily linked. They can be linked but they are not automatically linked. Wanting easier interfaces to program and simpler ways to control multiple engines and such is just asking for improvements on existing things.
That said if it was easier to access more advanced sound function while running they would probably get used more often even while operating.

-Doug M

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casper893 Active Member 94 posts

casper893

I have to agree with you, when we are running our locomotives in the club we usually turn down the sound so we can communicate with each other . the idea of having sounds and lighting functions is great ,but 15-20 plus functions is little much for me.

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dark2star Prolific poster 1,755 posts

dark2star

Same as with many other things...

Hi,

this is the same thing as elsewhere... Have you ever explored ALL of the functions your "Smart" TV has to offer? Unlikely, but if the device does not have function "X" it will not sell because the competition has that function.

Same thing with having dozens of functions on a DCC system - they have to be there because the competition has them (or the manufacturer want to show they have something that the competition doesn't have). In our case, adding more sound effects is the most cost-effective way, as they don't need extra hardware.

It is as with everything nowadays: "things were better in the good old days"... There was no sound function back then, so no need to complain about having too many :-)

In the end, there are two views: (1) says "I don't need that, I'd rather buy a cheaper decoder" while (2) says "gimme everything, I'll use only the functions I'm interested in, anyway, but I like having the choice." I exclude (3): "it has to be there because. Period."

Let me end my post with a quote from the Pirates of the Caribbean movie: "Take what you get. And give nothing back."

Have fun.

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pldvdk Super User 2,562 posts

pldvdk

Brian,

There have been times during op sessions where I wondered, "Why did I bother putting sound decoders in the engines, with all the sound options? No one seems to use them, even when I point the options out during orientation." That bears out the point made in your quote. During an op session most operators are focused on where they need to go and what work needs to be done in running trains and switching cars.

The funny thing is I do the same. When I operate at other people's layouts, the only time I think about fiddling with sound options is if I've run a job multiple times, and am very familiar with it.

That being said, sound decoders haven't been a waste of money for me. When I run solo ops on my own layout, I use a majority of the sound options available and enjoy running the train in a very prototypical manner. I can do that because I'm so familiar with the layout and the jobs that need to be done, that I don't really need to think about how the work needs to be done. It happens automatically, so to speak, thus freeing my mind so I can play with the decoder options.

Paul Krentz

Free-lancing a portion of the N&W Pocahontas "Pokey" District

Read my blog

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AlexW Prolific poster 2,781 posts

AlexW

I agree about extraneous sound functions. Doug M said it perfectly that a DCC system with a better interface and features is totally different from having a gazillion functions.

I don't know why the NMRA is looking at adding even more functions, 28 is already too many. In most cases, 12 is plenty and more than people can remember anyway. With ProtoThrottle, you can chew up quite a few with lighting effects and aux effects, but since you have prototypical controls, you don't have to worry about the brake being F6 or F7 or whatever, it's just the brake.

You can use JMRI to label functions, or manufacturers could even make their own app for running their train with access to the functions via WiThrottle, but they seem gimmicky.

-----

Modeling the modern era freelanced G&W Connecticut Northern

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joef MRH Founder 17,424 posts

joef

Quote:

There have been times during op sessions where I wondered, "Why did I bother putting sound decoders in the engines, with all the sound options? No one seems to use them, even when I point the options out during orientation." That bears out the point made in your quote. During an op session most operators are focused on where they need to go and what work needs to be done in running trains and switching cars.

Before the ProtoThrottle, I would have agreed with this 100%.

But now with the ProtoThrottle, I depend on the sound to tell me how the loco is reacting to my control settings. Suddenly, sound has become extremely relevant -- virtually a necessity -- with the ProtoThrottle.

The ProtoThrottle is truly a game-changer when it comes to running trains. Until you've tried it, you have no idea what you're missing.

Joe Fugate
Publisher, Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine

Read my blog

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JLandT Railroad Super User 2,492 posts

JLandT Railroad

joef wrote:

Before the ProtoThrottle, I would have agreed with this 100%.

But now with the ProtoThrottle, I depend on the sound to tell me how the loco is reacting to my control settings. Suddenly, sound has become extremely relevant -- virtually a necessity -- with the ProtoThrottle.

The ProtoThrottle is truly a game-changer when it comes to running trains. Until you've tried it, you have no idea what you're missing.

100% agree with this, the ProtoThrottle fixes all of the issues associated with not knowing which function buttons do what sound too. And it is a game changer, I don't think you'll find a more accurate way of operating a scale locomotive.

I certainly wont be going back to a button or knob turn throttle again...

Even without the ProtoThrottle there are other alternatives that work really well with DCC systems, I know these below all work with my NCE system.
The WiThrottle & DXR apps are great. The WiThrottle was standard prior to the ProtoThrottle, and the DXR is a pseudo ProtoThrottle without the tactile feel of actual controls.

You can even run two trains with the "dual control" throttle on the WiThrottle, and the interface allows you to program the F keys to written functions through JMRI, and the function selection is "scrollable" through all 28 functions keys.

(WiThrottle Dual Throttle - DXR Throttle - WiThrottle Single)

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Web Blog: JLandT Railroad - BlogSpot

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VSOTTO Regular poster 151 posts

VSOTTO

Quote:

DXR is a pseudo ProtoThrottle without the tactile feel of actual controls.

Is the DXR app only for iphone/ipads? I looked for it in the Android store and couldn't find it. What is the full name of the app?
Thanks.

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filip timmerman Super User 1,377 posts

filip timmerman

As with Computers... we now use more paper.
But I'm still happy with the trust worthy NCE Power Cab using some functions like a whistle, lights and ohhhh, what function key is that brake again.
That is on a steam engine.
Yes, the 'Proto Trottle'... wonderful for diesels !
That's the hole in the market for model steam train operators... Someone ??

Filip

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Jerry Sparrow jbirdweb Super User 155 posts

Jerry Sparrow jbirdweb

I like the idea of the proto throttle, but the price point is way out of reach for me. The NCE power cab is perfect for my small pike and gives me all the functions I need at a more affordable price.

Jerry Sparrow
Freelance modeling the fictitious
Cantwell and Chenoa Railway

Short projects journal

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Prof_Klyzlr Moderator 7,955 posts

Prof_Klyzlr

filip timmerman wrote:

As with Computers... we now use more paper.
But I'm still happy with the trust worthy NCE Power Cab using some functions like a whistle, lights and ohhhh, what function key is that brake again.
That is on a steam engine.
Yes, the 'Proto Trottle'... wonderful for diesels !
That's the hole in the market for model steam train operators... Someone ??

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/okay-steam-modelers-what-would-your-protothrottle-look-like-12210443

Happy Modelling,
Prof Klyzlr

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filip timmerman Super User 1,377 posts

filip timmerman

Hi Prof,
Yes.
I followed that topic a bit...
Maybe some day.
But as I live in EU there are many options.

Filip

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BN1970 Regular poster 354 posts

BN1970

I've hosted hundreds of Op-sessions with a lot of visiting for the first time operators. Once I started running LokSound locomotives I found it harder to easily get my Digitrax UT4's to be reliably used. Part of it was figuring out what function was On or was it Off? For first time visitor's, what Function button did what again. I tried a number of ideas, and I'am not into long post to go over them.

What has worked for me is the ProtoThrottle, I agree with what Joe has written many times before, "it's a game changer".

I spent time tweaking my LokSound decoders such that I can tell by the sound whats about to happen.

I can tell whats On or Off just by looking at a ProtoThrottle. I don't need to look at the throttle while switching. Since I have a switching layout there's a lot of switching on my layout. I don't even need to hold my PT's, freeing up a hand to drink some coffee or read the switch list, while moving.

ProtoThrottle's look simple but they have a lot of technology inside.

Yes I know they are expensive, but they work really well and they can work on just about any DCC system. --Brian

Brian Morgan, ESU ECoS - ProtoThrottles, SwitchPilot, SignalPilots, ECoSDetector, LokProgrammer, GN in 1967

• my Username is BN1970 thanks to my basement flood of 2015.

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cz17west New member 26 posts

cz17west

If you are using the Wi Throttle app in conjunction with JMRI or CTI you can label the functions keys. I also wrote some simple instructions in the CTI program that when (Spot) is pushed the engine sound goes to idle, the brake is activated, waits 5 seconds, reverses direction, release brake and sets a speed of about 5mph. Each time (Notch) is pushed the speed is incremented up like the Proto Throttle. Momentum rate is set high in each engine so that the engine will seem to coast unless the (Brake) is applied. There is more that I've done than the above, this just gives a idea as to what can be done.

Clark Bauman
CR&B Railroad

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Pennsy_Nut Prolific poster 3,631 posts

Pennsy_Nut

I admit to being totally ignorant of all this. But. I always thought that the best way to program CV's for functions was to make them all the same for all locos. f1 = bell, f2 = whistle, f3 = coupler?,xxx,f8 = mute seem to be de facto. So for an individual's fleet, he/she could program "at least" the 8 basic functions the way he/she wants. (In my simple situation, the DCS50 shows only 9, and the UT4D shows 12.) So you set up your personal standards for YOUR functions on all your locos the same - the same for what you personally desire. Now if you have a throttle that has ?# CV's you have a larger problem setting them all the same. What am I missing here? ClarkB: that image you show? How do I know which function is which? I hit bell and it rings. But you had to have programmed it to a function. And is that stored in JMRI? or something? So I have to assume (nasty word) that each one of your locos, steam or diseasal, had f1 set for the bell. ?? Or any other function key you personally wish.

Morgan Bilbo, DCS50, UR93, UT4D, SPROG IIv4, JMRI. PRR 1952.

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Marc Prolific poster 1,369 posts

Marc

.
Probably lot will disagree but something I really hate is locomotives sound

I'm absolutely not interest in sound locomotives but Yes I use DCC with a Zimo command station, really a state of the art system with many advanced features not proposed by others

I own around 80 steam locomotives for my N scale empire and only two have sound, not a personal choice but a in build sound system delivered with the model

Some will say it's because I model in N scale I hate sound because the rendering of sound in tiny N scale locomotives is altered by the scale, but really not, most of my friend modelers are HO ones and use for the most sound.

I.m not confortable with the sound produced even with the last generation of sound decoder.

Just my feeling and my opinion

On the run whith my Maclau River RR in Nscale

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JLandT Railroad Super User 2,492 posts

JLandT Railroad

cz17west wrote:

If you are using the Wi Throttle app in conjunction with JMRI or CTI you can label the functions keys. I also wrote some simple instructions in the CTI program that when (Spot) is pushed the engine sound goes to idle, the brake is activated, waits 5 seconds, reverses direction, release brake and sets a speed of about 5mph. Each time (Notch) is pushed the speed is incremented up like the Proto Throttle. Momentum rate is set high in each engine so that the engine will seem to coast unless the (Brake) is applied. There is more that I've done than the above, this just gives a idea as to what can be done.

Clark Bauman
CR&B Railroad

Clark your WiThrottle work is outstanding, I still use it even though I have three ProtoThrottles now. If I’m running a full crew of operators (6-8) three or four of them are using WiThrottle on my old iPhones.

The ability to assign labels to the function keys is a huge help, and I love the idea of the “spot” function too…!

Jason.

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David Husman dave1905 MRH Author 9,820 posts

David Husman dave1905

While I only have one engine with sound, I have operated sound equipped engines on other layouts and plan to turn off most of the cheesy sound effects totally (radio chatter, "all aboards", assorted clanking and banging noises) and generally turn down the sound level to the point that it won't be heard more than 6 ft away. Pretty much chuff, bell and whistle should handle the vast majority of sounds I need.

Even if they came out with a dozen new sounds, I wonder how many people would end up turning them off?

Dave Husman

Visit my website : https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index: Dave Husman Blog Index

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