DCC

Doug I had one of the first Lenz systems in the US back in 1993. After two years of operation I outgrew the system. I looked at System 1 and Digitrax back then. I went with System 1. After a few years the owner of sys1 had health problems and ceased production BUT NCE then came online with their system which is a clone of the Sys 1 system. What I would do if I were you is try out a NCE system to see if you like the handsets. I like their method of consisting and repairs if needed are handled promptly . One thing else to consider is TCS. They currently do not have a command station but their UTW-100 handset which works on Wifi not radio is compatable with NCE. Both our railroads are about the same size mine is 3120 sq ft multi deck. I've used up to 32 NCE handsets 30 of which are radio with no issues. If your Lenz boosters are up to the job supplying power they can be used with other systems so they do not need to be replaced. 

Lenz support in the US went away when Stan and Debbie  Ames stopped being their US connection. The European market is their customer base not the US . Any other questions ask away ---  Ken McCorry

Throttles and Command Station

Doug,

Thinking through this logically, we can first look at the system that you have. The newer CVP radio receivers can be doubled, so two receivers, each supporting 8 throttles can be connected to XPressNet. But that doesn't solve the lack of upgrade path and less than ideal PC interface that you mention on Lenz. You could certainly add UWT-100s or soon UWT-50s, but now we're back to the less than ideal PC interface.

The Lenz boosters will work with about anything, including both Digikeijs and Roco. Digitrax, NCE, and Lenz boosters are all nominally compatible if you're careful about the amount of current drawn from the command station's booster network output. With older boosters, you cannot use RailCom, but if that's not something that's necessary for you, pretty much any booster in good condition dating back to the original Lenz system in 1993 will work fine.

I have personally not pulled the trigger on Digikeijs, because they do not support Digitrax Simplex - yet. They are working on an update to resolve the LocoNet bug that prevents Simplex from working. It does support Digitrax Duplex, and the performance of the UR93, along with firmware upgrades to the RF24 modules in the older Duplex throttles has made it mostly workable for those using it. The Roco Z21 also gives you the XPressNet and LocoNet networks, although I don't know about using it with Digitrax Simplex.

Take a look at Ryan from IronPlanetHobbies and his YouTube videos, he shows the CVP XPressNet throttles, Digitrax Duplex, Roco Z21 WLANMaus, and several other throttles being used through various interfaces with the DR5000. It is extremely versatile.

TCS CS-105

The TCS CS-105 claims to support Lenz XPressNet as an option instead of NCE cab bus, but I don't know if this is going to be available at launch. They haven't talked much about the XPressNet side of things, mostly about NCE compatibility. It does not work with LocoNet, as they were denied a license by Digitrax.

Layouts

I operated on their layout this weekend. It is incredible. Operating large scale is really quite neat. I'd love to operate on your layout some time if you're inviting guest operators in for an operations event or whatnot.

Debbie was and amazing person

Debbie was and amazing person to work with.  She was really helpful and would bend over backwards to try and help.  Even a person such as myself who back in the day (2007 ish) was raising a lit of stink on the Lenz forums.  She actually set up a meeting with herself, myself and Lenz at the National convention to discuss some issues.  And she upgraded my system at the convention…. 
Saddly Lenz (who had a good conversation with my father who was born and raised in Germany.. so go figure) was already “checked out” from DCC and was more interested in his other stuff (O scale models iirc).  The system still has some things it does better the most other systems.  More then once I have had someone ask about programming issues or other odd behavior that some decoder or engine we have in come is doing and I have to point out it runs fine on my system…

So it saddens me to give it up.  But the computer interface software is old and I am not sure when I replace the PC (which will have to be soon as it is old and diying) I will even get it to work again.  And the expansion will ultimately be a factor.  
If I ever finish the railroad it will have three yards, a branch line and a logging line using a total of 5 throttles.  Not counting any mainline trains…. So 8 throttles is a bit low.  Right now I expect that will do as the layout is only about 1/3 finished with one yard the logging branch and the coal branch and about 1/3 of the mainline in.  So I can start small scale operations with a more limited system but as I bring the rest of the layout online over the next couple years this could become a problem,

Thus I am stating to look at options.  
As for NCE.  A friend has it.  But the cost of replacing my existing 8 throttles is prohibitive.  The goal is to GAIN throttles not lose them.  If I sold my whole Lenz system and the CVP (minus boosters) took the money for the new command station such as DiGikiejs I wouldn’t be able to buy the NCE command station and 3 throttles.  
I would be better off in that case buying something to use for programming the locos with a good computer connection and stick with Lenz.

No, being able to reuse the existing CVP throttles is a retirement,

As for adding CVPs new radio throttles.  I was under the impression that there was an issue with the older receiver and the older (RF1300) throttles…. But I may be wrong about that.

Well this is why I am starting to look into options now.  Because this is going to get complicated,

I just figured if anyone had gone down this road before me I would benefit from there experience,  I hate to make the same mistakes as others have made if I can avoid them as I am so good at finding my own was to mess up i don’t need to copy others…

Well I have a while.  This layout is taking a lot longer to build then planed.  As first my mother got ill, and passed, then my father (who was building it with me) got ill and passed.  (They both lived with me) so in the last 12 years I think I have lost 4 or more to family issues and almost another year to my personal illness.  But I am determined to fish this thing…  As I joke.  This is my dream layout,, problem is nightmares are dreams too…

So I am sort of shifting gears and while it is to late to do Joe’s Toma theory I am concentrating on a much smaller section for now and will slowly expand from there.

-Doug M

Contact CVP

You may be able to add a new receiver and new throttles alongside your existing receiver and throttles, either with your existing Lenz system, or along with a new Digikeijs or Roco command station.

For programming, you can just use a SPROG or something, but that doesn't help for WiThrottle, and whatever system maintenance or monitoring tools are in JMRI for Lenz systems.

alternatives

Hi,

I assume, you will be surprised how different quality is Lenz compare to others.

Probably Digikeijs DR5000 https://www.digikeijs.com/en/dr5000-dcc-multi-bus-central.html accommodate all your interfaces.

If you are good in electronic, you can join some of DIY projects http://www.fucik.name/masinky/NanoY/ 

Lenz support at Groups.io

Doug -

You may find more info about your Lenz system in this group at the groups.io site.

A friend that has a significant investment in Lenz equipment recently joined the group and has mentioned receiving good info there.

He also mentioned he found a supplier of Lenz equipment through the group.

Might be worth checking out.

gs

The issue with Lenz is that

The issue with Lenz is that they are designing old fashoned systems for use in Europe,  With tethered throttles.  So unless that changes and they come up with a direct connection to a different buss or add a WiFi (for throttles) or their own. wireless system you are forced to cobble something together or by a system like CVP that occationalky remembers it sells a Lenz compatible radio. 

So you are tossing good money after bad,  And while people talk about the sunk cost fallacy.  And that can be a point.  The money spent is gone.  Spending more on the same will mot change that.  The issue is.  The current Lenz system (w/cvp) works.  And tossing bit out or selling it at a fraction of the cost is not economically doable.  And with one of the main reasons for change being future growth.. going nack yo Two wireless throttles from 8 wireless and three wired is not really an option.

As for places to buy Lenz, see above comments.  As for support.  The problem with Lenz is the company is not taking Lenz in a North American friendly direction.  So support groups wont change that.  No support group can get around not having a built in wireless option.  As for the computer interface issue that is mostly a result of old hardware.   And while i believe a new hardware interface exists… that is more funds dedicated to a system with no expansion.

Like driving an old car.. at some point you have to just stop spending. money on it and start saving to buy a new(er) car.

I guess what i am looking for here is to see if anyone has experience with the following.

1)the Digikiejs (sp?) DCC system  

if so have you tried to connect to other companies booster?  Either Lenz or someone else's.  Also does this system work with a distributed booster design or do the booster need yo be close to the command station?

2)  has anyone tried to replace a Lenz system?  if so with what.  Did you keep the lenz boosters or the throttles?

These are the kind of things i am looking for info on.

As fir building your own systems and such i have never been that into electronics. 

-Doug M

LH101R

They did finally release the LH101R. It's astronomically expensive in the US though.

http://www.dcctrain.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=7138

I'd post on the Digikeijs and Lenz groups to see if anyone there has converted. Digikeijs does have a CDE adapter with some additional features beyond just adapting the physical connection, which should work at the same distances that Lenz boosters do. You could also fashion your own out of Digitrax's instructions from the LNet-B connection.

https://www.digikeijs.com/en/dr5039-loconet-b-to-cde.html

https://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB873/lenz-lv100-booster-with-loconet/

Digikeijs

Hi Doug.   I have a Digikeijs DR5000 and a Digikeijs booster.  They seem to work fine but took some work to set up using a PC and Digikeijs website. I don't have any Lenz products to try with them but I've used a Digitrax booster and Digitrax radio throttles with the Digikeijs. They connect with loco net just the same as on a Digitrax command station. I've also used an ipad as a throttle with the Digikeijs. The DR5000 is fairly inexpensive and includes built in wifi so you might try one with your Lenz boosters and then add some phone or ipad throttles using the wifi?  Iron Planet hobbies should be able to tell you more about the possibilities. .....DaveB 

Lenz Radio

As I understand it, Lenz has/will have a radio throttle system in Europe.... but not in the US. There's apparently and FCC licensing issue with radio communications they just don't want to get into.

I remember years ago, Lenz had a device of some kind that would allow you to use a wireless landline phone as a throttle...   but it was a kludge and (of course) batteries didn't last very long as all. Don't know if they still make it or not. There was only one Lenz sales shop I would see at local train shows from time to time.... I _think_ they're still offering it, but it's been a while.

Yeah, Lenz has gotten

Yeah, Lenz has gotten stupidly expensive.  It has to one of the most expensive systems.

-Doug 

Replacing DCC system (Lenz)

For some reason you topic interested me even though I have no experience with Lenz or CVP.  I did the quick fly over.

It appears that you can add a second CVP wireless receiver and 8 more throttles.

As far as programming look into JMRI.  JMRI has software, firmware and hardware requirements listed on their JMRI website.   You can alternately use a entry level system from another manufacture to program decoders.

Adding another brand to your DCC setup just makes it that much more complicated.  

These are more talking points than firm recommendations.  

Another system worth investigating

A while back I transitioned to a Roco Z21. Yes this is not an American system, but…. The Roco Z21 is ideal. The system comes with the base unit, and a Wi-Fi router. Why? Well the throttles are your smart phone. Either iOS or android, the app is free, easy and intuitive. You can give anyone with the app access to your layout. Don’t worry about them changing anything, as you can password protect the settings. I have given an 8-year-old the iPad and let him have fun. The sounds on so equipped locos are represented by easy-to-understand icons. ( The boy blasted the horn all over the layout!) You can run up to 100 trains simultaneously, again have people load up the app and have fun! As it included its own Wi-Fi router your home network is safe. If you have DCC equipped turnouts, you can put a track plan in the phone (or iPad) so a control panel becomes secondary.

As simple as this unit is to operate it has very deep functionality available. You can program on the main, or a dedicated programing track.  The unit can use the Digitrax or Lenz throttle connections as it has an X-Bus. Additionally, it has a CAN-bus, and Loco-Net. Also, it has a LAN connection to connect with a PC. This allows you to use the maintenance tool (also free) to update the system or connect to JMRI. If you use any ZIMO decoders this allows you to update or configure those as well.

They do have boosters and many accessories.

This unit does play well with others, I have locos with Digitrax, Lenz, Motorola, (Marklin) ESU and Zimo decoders, and no problems.

I am not a salesman for Roco by any means, but an extremely satisfied customer. They are worth a look.

No Helper Service in 1943?

Put this subject in a new thread

Roco Z21

The Roco Z21 is a really interesting system. It would be an ideal upgrade for a Lenz user, they have an X-Bus connection, as well as a CDE adapter. For Digitrax users, it doesn't officially support an LNet-B connection, but one could be fashioned out of the CDE adapter or from the track output using an RSCLD.

Canon or Nikon question revisited.

This is like the old question which is the best camera. You ask a hundred people and get a hundred different answers. I personally Like NCE for it's simplicity, low cost and scalability.

No actually this is like

No actually this is like Asking about upgrading from an old Cannon Digital Rebel To something newer and with a full from sensor but wanting to keep using the older glass as you. Ant afford to replace the lenses at this point. and if anyone has done this.  And getting a LOT of folks suggesting going with a Nikon or a cell phone..

If I wanted to know what system folks think is best I would have asked “What DCC system do you like best” or “if you had to start over today, what DCC system would you select and why?”  Whip ich is a good question actually.

I was looking for opinions, but from (preferably) people that had taken this trip before me.  Somehow the need to keep as much as possible for cost reasons got lost.  As I pointed out selling my current system to buy a new one would result in LESS throttles and the goal is more so…. Thus I want/need to keep the Xbus.  
I guess most have no knowledge of how to upgrade from Lenze using CVP throttles and thus the wide range of suggestions. 
I asked elsewhere what type of controls do people like to use to control turnouts when they are operating a layout and got back 0 answers about what I asked and a lot of answers to what they use on there own layout to control turnouts and no one talked about how to locate the switches what arrangement they like best, or toggles vs push buttons or anything…. (This was not my post here asking how folks wire turnouts, it was elsewhere and was about how to best arrange the controls for operates to understand how to run the layout .

So not getting answers to the actual question asked is not surprising.

-Doug M

My apologies.

I get it now. Yes to scrap everything would be a huge expense. I had transitioned from film to digital so I get the glass analogy.

NCE and camera lenses

Low cost? I suppose if you compare to Zimo. NCE is more expensive than basically every other DCC system on the market. You can argue they have this feature or that, but you can't argue with prices.

That is a better analogy. That's why I think it makes sense to go with a system like Digikeijs, Roco, or TCS that supports (or will support) Lenz XPressNet. In the case of cameras, it would be like a third manufacturer that offers a camera with a mount for Canon glass.

Add in support for LocoNet, and a UR93 would allow your Digitrax friends to bring throttles, plus with any newer system you've got JMRI WiThrottle for TCS throttles, phones, whatever. You wouldn't need to buy new throttles at all.

You need to contact CVP if you want more info on CVP throttles working with your existing CVP throttles, or maybe the Lenz list. You've gotten good responses here, if you want more detailed information about Digikeijs, CVP, or Lenz, I'd post on their specific lists, or maybe Facebook groups, although those tend to be less technical.

How I use my old LENZ equipment with my NCE system

Hi Doug

You asked for what other modellers use on their railroads so here goes.

I was the LENZ dealer for New Zealand in the early 2000's and it was a leading system at that time.  However the functionality of the LENZ systems was not keeping pace with other manufacturers and in the end I ended the relationship with LENZ.  Fast forward several years and I was looking for a new DCC system along with my fellow modellers.  Being an electrician by trade and having worked as a computer technician for many years with the likes of IBM, I was tasked with doing the technical appraisal of the systems.  We looked at everything from price, to expandability and functionality.  All of the group were fortunate to have used a number of different systems around New Zealand during various running sessions during conventions we attended, which helped with our decision.

As you can see by the title of the post we all settled on the NCE system for quite a few reasons.  However the biggest was ease of use.  None of use could stand the Digitrax tiny knobs and buttons or the complex methid of selecting locomotives and taking them off a list and so on.  With NCE you pick up a throttle, key in the loco number (from the 0-9 keypad) and away you go.  All other programming is just as simple.

But it might be best to tell you how I now have it connected to the layout.

• PowerPro 5 amp system (with radio)
• Various radio throttles, the 'hammerhead' that came with the system and CAB06
• Computer interface using the RS232 to USB interface
• PSX-1 circuit breakers
• The layout computer runs JMRI and has the Wi-Fi connection for mobile phone throttles
• C/MRI for block occupancy, signalling and mainline turnout control
• JMRI PanelPro for layout control via the C/MRI
• Investigating installing CATS for the dispatcher panel
• Using LENZ LV101's as boosters connected directly to the NCE system and working perfectly (diagram below)

All of these items were straightforward to connect together and all worked first time and have been reliable ever since.  If the proof is in the pudding then this pudding tastes delicious!

The NCE throttles are comfortable to hold and operate over operating sessions lasting several hours.  We have had five radio throttles running at a time and a couple of Wi-Fi throttles at the same time, even from the house over the LAN and Wi-Fi.  Only a small number of throttles, but it is a modest size layout.

Each to their own and some of the comments in other posts say NCE is overpriced.  However, it always comes down to what you are prepared to pay and everyone has a different budget.  We are all very happy with the decision we made with NCE and would not change it for any other system we have used.

I hope this helps, Doug.

Happy modelling

Brendon

turnout control

Where specifically was that subject thread you posted?

EDITED: I just found it.