Prof_Klyzlr

Dear MRHers,

OK, here's one for the "can conceptualise in isolation" layout designer, trackplanner,
and specifically the "trackplanning for operations" modellers...

Givens:
- HO scale, SG
- rake of 2x 50' cars
- 1x GP40-2 loco
- Min #5 turnout(s) or equivalent, and matching curve-radii
- Min parallel track spacing = 2"
- Benchwork is assumed to be typical "flat-top domino", but can be modified as required.
- Literally consider the run-around in isolation, there is no nearby existing track, structures, scenery, electrics,
or other impediments to work around.

THE Question:

What is the shortest MODEL runaround track array which would allow the GP40-2 to run-around the 2x 50' cars?

(This is not a 12"/1' scale PROTOTYPE Railfan or Google-Maps hunt, although that's always fun...   ).

Druthers:
- Actual scaled trackplans preferred, XTrkCAD is FREE 
http://xtrkcad-fork.sourceforge.net/Wikka/DownloadInstall
/> - PECO Code 83 "US Geometry" track preferred, but open to other options
- Era or Modelled-prototype is not a consideration,
(That a GP40-2 and 50' cars are "of a given Prototype era" is not germaine to the MODEL Question in-this-case).


Looking forward to seeing what creatively-optimised solutions the MRH luminaries can come up with...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 2
David Husman dave1905

Short

Min.png 

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 3
Ken Rice

Shortest?

Not quite sure what you’re after here prof, but a 1 car long between the clearance points using Y turnouts would probably be the shortest you could do.  Y’s for the shortest geometry, 1 car because you can run around one at a time to get to the other end of any number of cars.

Not very prototypical of course, but that didn’t seem to be part of the question.

Reply 2
Ironrooster

32 Inches

These are all about 7" long adding an inch for couplers at both ends and a little clearance gives us 16" for the boxcars.  Put an 8" turntable at each end of 2 tracks for the locomotive adds another 16" for a total of 32". 

I don't have these models myself, so these figures may need to slightly adjusted based on the models lengths over the couplers.

Paul

Reply 2
ctxmf74

 "What is the shortest

Quote:

"What is the shortest MODEL runaround track array which would allow the GP40-2 to run-around the 2x 50' cars?"

Pretty easy to figure out. Just set your engine and cars on a table top and measure them , then measure the clearing points for the turnouts you prefer and add up the total.  BTW, I'm thinking of adding a short runaround track to my yard as I get tired watching the engine run all the way down the yard and back to get on the other end of a caboose :> )....DaveB

Reply 2
Eugene Griffin EGRX

Two possible configurations

Using the following information;

50’ boxcar - Currently active equipment

Truck Centers: 40’ 10” ( + 6’ 8 1/4” to car strikers) = 54’ 2.5”
Over End Sills: 50’ 6 5/8”
Extreme Width: 10’ 8”
Length over pulling face of couplers normal: 58’ 6 1/2”

GP40

Truck Centers - 34’ ( + 10’ 6” to car end from truck center) = 55’
Extreme width 10’ 3”
Length over pulling face of couplers normal: 59’ 2”

Minimum radius 26" based on the peco #5

First test point to point length : 188' (approx.) Loco(blue)

fun2Left.jpg 

Second test: point to point length: straight section 202' (approx.) other 213' (approx.)

un2Right.jpg  

And one more(wye) Track length point to point 158' (approx.) (15' centers)

fun2-wye.jpg  

or based on the requirements use 4 turnouts (can be minimized with two speciality turnouts (based on wye))

fun2_two.jpg 

Reply 2
Michael Tondee

Didn't the "Timesaver" have

Didn't the "Timesaver" have about the shortest run around possible for the equipment that ran on it? 40 footers?

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 3
Greg Baker Mountaingoatgreg

Two shortest Prototype runarounds I have seen

The two shortest runarounds I have seen/used both held 3 cars. 

One was at a facility that received various steel cars and had a bunch of odd track arrangements that we could not take our locomotive on. We also were not really supposed to use it as a runaround, but sometimes it was the only way to get a around cars.

The other facility with a 3 car runaround was a chemical plant that had two of the spots on the runaround  with enough room on either side to clear additional cars and power. What was interesting is they may only release one or the other car. That means you could not touch the car in the one spot, but still had to pull the empty and replace with another load. You also may have to take the same care from one spot in the plant and spot it at a different location. There was another crossover just up the track that was often used as a runaround to get around these cars. Pretty straight forward track arrangement could take crews hours sorting, spotting, and re-spotting cars. 

Reply 2
dark2star

Not an answer to the question

Hi,

for a prototype in a long gone era, I would assume that a simple turnout with enough track could be used for a run-around maneuver. Either as a "flying switch" or using poles/chains to get a car or two in or out of the spur.

For a model that won't work, though. I do agree that running around a single car will do the trick. It is much slower, though.

At this point I wanted to link to an entry from Carl Arendts' Small layout design contest - however it seems the page is currently offline :-(

Have fun!

Reply 2
GeeTee

Single stub end track

Single stub end track constructed on a 1.5 % grade ,long enough for the locomotive . Set the brakes on the cars ,uncouple and back onto the stub ...throw the switch,  release brakes on cars.

Reply 2
ctxmf74

Very shortest?

Since we are talking model trains here the shortest would be zero, just pick up the equipment and turn it around arranged in the manner you choose....DaveB

Reply 2
dark2star

Model crane

Hi DaveB,

continuing that thought... Build a model of a crane that is actually operational and grabs the car, lifts it and allows the loco to pass.

Have fun!

Reply 2
David Husman dave1905

Short v2

Another version of shortest would be one switch, with the diverging route a spur just long enough to hold 1 car and built on as tight a vertical curve as you can get.  The GP40 shoes one car up on the spur, sets a brake, goes past the switch, the first car has the brake released and rolls down behind the GP40.   The GP40 puts the 2nd car up on the spur, repeats the process.  The cars are now on the other end of the GP40.  Depending on how you want to measure "length", the main track length is only the length of one switch to the clearance point.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 2
Ken Rice

Another solution

Get a second GP-40 and stick it on the other end - no runaround needed at all.

This is a prototypical solution - the Grafton & Upton is using it on the Milford - Franklin line they just took over operation of from CSX.  The Providence and Worcester uses it on some of their locals as well.

Reply 2
dark2star
dark2star wrote:

Not an answer to the question

Hi,

for a prototype in a long gone era, I would assume that a simple turnout with enough track could be used for a run-around maneuver. Either as a "flying switch" or using poles/chains to get a car or two in or out of the spur.

For a model that won't work, though. I do agree that running around a single car will do the trick. It is much slower, though.

At this point I wanted to link to an entry from Carl Arendts' Small layout design contest - however it seems the page is currently offline :-(

Have fun!

 
That said, watch this video:
 
Have fun.
Reply 2
NorthBrit
Leeds Sovereign Street Station  is 4ft x 1ft  (to the signals near the signal box)
 
IMG_2916.jpg
David
Reply 3
David Emery deemery2
Dave Husman:  From our era, would the use of poling change the answer?     https://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2015/07/poling-railroad-cars.html
 
dave
Modeling 1890s northeast US
Reply 2
jscorse
The prof asked for solutions to runaround TWO fifty foot cars.  Almost all the solutions above are for ONE car.
Reply 3
bdhicks
I remember at one club operating session we had an operator who didn't notice that the instructions said to shove back to the yard and instead used a pair of back-to-back crossovers as a runaround.  I think he managed to get two cars in there at a time, but they would've been 40' rather than 50'.
-Brian
Reply 2
Wendell1976

Didn't the "Timesaver" have

Didn't the "Timesaver" have about the shortest run around possible for the equipment that ran on it? 40 footers?

 
Yes. The straight track within the runaround on the original Timesaver layout only had a capacity of two cars or a locomotive plus one car.
 
Wendell
Reply 4
James Taylor
This thread as been dead some years! I ran across it today in 2024.   
 So the shortest Prototype runaround I have seen was on the old Santa Fe line between Blythe and Ripley, California. It was removed about 2010-11. The A&C RR last ran a train down there in 07.  
 South of Blythe was a single car runaround, there is/was a tiny loading  bin with jacks for 1 car. I always picture a small covered hopper. AND IT WAS SHORT.  Both roads used a GP-30 down there as I seen a picture of one in Blythe and Ripley. The grain loader was right near the road we took to work and I walked the tracks a few times amazed that the railroad would go around rather than the opposite on  2 shorty turnouts. Why I didn't photograph it I don't know.
  Anyway, I thought it might still interesting to share.
 
  James

James Taylor

Reply 4
dark2star
While it may not technically count as a runaround, some (passenger) station throats have more than one ladder for trains to access the station. Designed so that two trains can enter/exit the station at the same time. Theoretically these could be used as runarounds and some are very short...
 
Over the years I have seen a couple of styles of "runaround" operation in passenger services. Mostly they happened in terminal stations, but it's not necessarily the terminal of the train service.
 
1) the train is pulled into platform 32 by loco 1. Loco 2 attaches to the rear of the train while loco 1 is uncoupled. The train leaves, pulled by loco2 while loco 1 goes to the service tracks.
 
2) some older passenger stations had crossovers between adjacent tracks to allow the loco to "escape" - and run around the train. But that is an actual runaround and it's usually train-length.
 
3) the train is pulled into platform 32 by loco 1. A small shunter loco grabs the coaches (after passengers have disembarked) and pulls/pushes them to track 31. Finally the shunter leaves and loco 1 follows the train into track 31 to couple to the "new" end.
 
4) the train is pulled into platform 32 by loco 1. After passengers disembark, the loco pushes the train back out into the station ladder. Somewhere out there, it uncouples from the coaches, runs around using the actual station entry ladder (as mentioned above) and couples to the other end of the train. Another shove later the train is back in track 32 for passengers to get on.
 
For (1) and (3) - while they have the train end up with a loco on the other end, it's not technically a "runaround" move. However, (1) is quite efficient and was widely used when passenger trains were still pulled by a loco... With most trains being either two-direction capable or just being multiple-units, that doesn't happen often, anymore. Both (1) and (3) can be performed using regular platforms and a switcher pocket or just the regular loco service track. A "runaround" without an actual runaround track.
 
The last line that used (3) and (4) regularly was a regional line I used until they moved to multiple-units, too. While (3) is somewhat efficient, in the end they used only (4). With the caveat that the runaround move blocked 2 out of the stations' two-and-a-half access tracks(*)...
 
Have fun.
 
(*) in theory the station has 3 access tracks, but not all of the access tracks reach all platforms. In practice, there are only ever 2 tracks to reach a platform. Thus, it's two-and-a-half tracks - if there is a runaround move blocking 2 tracks, only 2 out of the 9 platforms are accessible. With trains running every 3-7  minutes, that's a problem... Other parts of the - quite large - station have similar issues. So when a train derailed in the station's throat, it shut the complete 36-track main station down for a couple hours (they had to switch the whole overhead power line system off!). Only very few diesel trains were still operating. After power came back on, about a dozen tracks was still inaccessible... I'm not a fan of complicated station throats, but...
Reply 3
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