Do you have a club, friend or hobby shop?

We who answer all have preferences.  I held back mine. 

It might be better to find a confidant who will work with you and even better let you run a system that might be available to you occasionally in the near future.

While thats an idea, I highly

While thats an idea, I highly doubt anyone is going to have one of these throttles, but I know there are a few on here that do..  

FWIW...

Dear DMR,

Unfortunately, no, we do need more info to provide a useful answer,
without specifying the "Host DCC system" and particular Host-DCC-system <> JMRI/WiFi network method in-operation, any answer will be a generic "shot in the dark".

To get started, let's speed-run some foundation info:

- A Complete DCC System must include the following three (3) components

* at least 1x "Throttle"
(method for Human to tell System what they want the Loco to do)

* One (1) Only "Command Station"
(The "Brains"of the operation, converts Human's wishes into DCC logic-level commands)

* One or More "Boosters" 
(The "Brawn" of the operation, boosts the Command Stations "logic level" signals to "Can Power a Loco" Track-level DCC signal)

- Now, the UWT is (at core), the "Throttle" bit, it is not the "Brains" (That's the Command Station's job).

- This means that what the "Throttle" is capable of doing, or displaying to the Human is massively dependent on which Command Station it's connected to, and to some extent, how it's connected.

To get specific:

- The "configurable buttons" on the UWT can read "custom assignments" from a JMRI instance which is running as the "Command Station" (EG DCC++).
This is because JMRI holds the "function configuration info" for each loco,
and hands-it-up to the UWT any time the UWT requests a "status update".

- IF however, the DCC Host System you are using is NOT using JMRI as the "Command Station", 
(IE using some other DCC Host system),
then the "Custom Function assignment" info,
which the UWT uses to display "custom function assignments" on it's programmable buttons/display,
is not held by the DCC Command Station..
 

- "But, to connect the UWT to ANY 'DCC Host System' uses JMRI..."

Kinda, but the devil is in the details:
* Remember, JMRI is a suite of apps and functions

* Yes, the UWT needs a "JMRI WiiThrottle Server" to act as a bridge between the UWT and < insert given Commercial Host DCC System HERE>
(the "WiiThrottle Server" applet is a single component part of the wider "JMRI Suite")

* However, the part of the JMRI Suite that holds the "Loco Roster Data",
which is where the "Custom Function Assignment" info for each loco lives,
is called Decoder Pro.

* If One is using a "Host DCC System" which has a "Full JMRI instance" acting as the Bridge
(IE a WiFi AP <>  PC running full JMRI suite <> DCC USB interface <> Commmercial Host DCC System)

then yes, "JMRI can hand-up the Custom Function Config to the UWT".
(The "full suite" in this case is running BOTH "WiiThrottle Server" and "Decoder Pro" parts of the JMRI Suite simultaneously).

However, If One is using a "bolt-on" WiiThrottle-bridge unit, such as:
- LNWI (Digitrax)
- WFD-30 (WiFiTrax --> direct to NCE)

these "bridges" do not run the "Decoder Pro" app/part of the JMRI suite,
(They literally just/only provide a WiFi AP + an instance of the JMRI-derived "WiiThrottle Server",
which connects directly to the Cab Buss of the nominated Host DCC system)

therefore they do not hold a "Loco Roster",
(no "Decoder Pro" = no Loco Roster info)

and thus cannot provide the UWT with "Custom Function Assignment" info.

I hope this helps... 
For clarity, do you have already, or have you been considering, any specific DCC System for your layout?

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

what DCC system to buy?

  For a small shelf layout I'd recommend an NCE power cab. Mounted in the center of the shelf you wouldn't have a problem working each end of the layout. The power cab would be simple,cheap, and trouble free for such an application. ...DaveB

 A Complete DCC System must

The 2nd and 3rd components aren't necessarily separate items but may be a single item.  For example, Digitrax Command station is also has the booster or power part built into it.

The makers of UWT-100 and UWT-50 are working on their own command station, but if you want something now, check the TCS website for commandstation/boosters that would work with the UWT throttles, such as Digitrax and NCE, etc.

wow.  okI dont mean to be a

Prof Klyzlr,   wow.  ok I dont mean to be a jerk but your entire post is unnecessary because i stated the LNWI was used in the example. 

Agreed

Dear MRHers,

JimF is certainly correct, from a physical perspective, these "functional component parts" may be boxed-together in a single given plastic or metal enclosure. Indeed, the NCE PowerCab system fits all 3x key components into a single "plastic box" which looks awfully like a Throttle handset...
(as does the Digitrax Zephyr, albeit a "desktop console" unit rather than a "walkaround" form factor).

However, from a Conceptual P.o.V,
which is IMHO most-helpful to diagnose any DCC System behaviour, it's good to mentally separate the 3 fundamental components of a complete DCC System out and understand what their respective roles are...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr
 

thank you  ctxmf74, that is a

thank you   ctxmf74, that is a idea i am still playing with. It is for sure cheaper..  But at this point i really just wanted to know how the programmable buttons work on the UWT when it is connected to a LNWI, as this might influence my decision.

Prof_Klyzlr, I noticed you edited your posts. I have removed this comment.  Thank you, your edits are appreciated. 

"Suppose" VS "I am"...

Dear DMR,

My apologies, the use of "Suppose I am" in your OP led me to believe you were still in the "thinking and considering" stage, not already-running an underlying Digitrax (what?) system. It won't happen again...

Happy Modelling,
Aiming to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Prof Klyzlr, you are

Prof Klyzlr, 

you are actually not wrong as i am still deciding on a system. I have edited my post to clarify.

If you must know (although my understanding is once a LNWI is used it really doesn't matter what the command station is for reasons you already posted).  Lets say in my example system I am using a zephyr connected to a LNWI connected to the uwt.

My question is.  When using a LNWI, does the uwt retain the user programming and label names (created in the throttle) when switching between loco's or power cycling it?  The user manual is ambiguous.

Digikeijs DR5000 + free z21 app...

OP:

I'm writing this assuming you haven't bought anything yet.

I'd suggest investigating the Digikeijs DR5000 system as your "control box".
It has about every kind of connection available, has BUILT IN wifi, and works with a wide variety of hand-held (pushbutton) wired controllers, as well as with wifi-based control (read on). About $200 US.
https://www.digikeijs.com/en/dr5000-adj-dcc-multi-bus-central.html

(One proviso: to set up the DR5000, you need either a PC running Windows, or a Mac running in bootcamp or running a virtual machine such as Parallels or VMWare Fusion)

To control "the box", I'd suggest using the FREE Roco z21 application (Digikeijs is designed to use this).
This runs on just about ANY smartphone or tablet, such as:
- iPhone
- iPad
- Android phone
- Android tablet.

Again, if you already have a smart device (as mentioned above), the z21 app is completely FREE.

And you can "try it out now" in demo mode, to see what it looks like.
Go to either the Apple App Store or to google play.
Search for "roco z21"
You want the app that has a red engine on a blue background.

Download it and play around with it.
You can see all the screens, how it works etc. (except, of course, you can't run trains without a "control box").

Roco also sells their own "control box", in two versions:
- Z21 (black box)
and
- z21start (white box).
The z21 is a stripped-down version of the black box Z21. The white box does "all I need", but they're hard to get ahold of (I ordered mine from Germany).

But I recommend that you investigate ALL of the stuff I mentioned above before making your final choice.

Thanks J.Albert.  I am

Thanks J.Albert.  I am familiar with those products, but thank you for the info though..  I have no interest in a phone throttle long term, I prefer a physical throttle with a knob etc.  I think i have eliminated the dr5000 due to reported claims of run away trains and other bugs.

Once i confirm how the UWT-100 function buttons work that will help me make a decision (I have emailed TCS directly)  If they loose there custom set functions thats not good.  I will likely just get a powercab then.

UWT-100 "Soft Key" Assignments

DMR,

The UWT-100 is an extremely capable device that is designed to work with nearly any and every DCC system in the market. Unfortunately, not every DCC system and WiThrottle Protocol server combination has the same capabilities, and exact functionality can differ slightly based on system + WiThrottle Protocol server combination.

It is important to note that the function assignments come from the WiThrottle Protocol server, not the throttle. There is nothing for the throttle to "lose". The throttle makes the best assignment possible based on the information provided by the server.

By default, the UWT-100's four main soft keys are assigned (left to right) to:

1. Recall - recalls the previously operated locomotive/consist
2. Horn (F2)
3. Bell (F1)
4. Headlight (F0)

If the server provides no function information (such as with the LNWI) it will always fall back on these assignments given the default UWT-100 configuration. If the server does provide function information, then the UWT-100 will look first at that function information to see if it can determine a match for the soft key assignments.

If no match is found before all of the function information provided by the server is consumed, the UWT-100 will use the additional unconsumed information to fill in the soft keys with that information. For example, if the server provides no indication of a bell, but says that brake is on F6, it will assign brake to one of the soft keys. It is very unusual to find this in the function information provided by the server, so it is assumed by the UWT-100 that this is intentional behavior purposely chosen by the user.

For the Horn assignment in particular, there is a sophisticated matching algorithm that the throttle uses for choosing a Horn or Whistle, as appropriate. Essentially, if the throttle finds a Whistle, but not a Horn, it will substitute Whistle in place of the horn, as is typical with North American steam locomotives.

In general, it is assumed that F0 == Headlight, even if no function information is provide by the server. The only exception to this is if the server provides information that explicitly assigns F0 to something else.

If you provide no custom configuration on both the server and UWT-100, the UWT-100 will always operate EXACTLY like a PowerCab, with dedicated Horn, Bell, and Headlight soft keys, which seems to be what you want.

I do want to make one correction to an earlier posting. The WifiTrax WFD-30 WiThrottle Protocol server does indeed contain a user configurable locomotive database, which can be used to assign function information which the UWT-100 can consume. If no database info is entered into the WFD-30, the UWT-100 will fall back on the default assignments, just like with the LNWI.

Thanks,

Stuart

NCE and LNWI

@ DMR

Keep in mind that the LNWI you mention is a Digitrax LocoNet product and it does not connect with an NCE PowerCab without lots of extra parts and work.

You may want to look into the WifiTrax WFD30 to connect with the PowerCab.

EDIT:  While I was typing I see that Stuart gave a very detailed answer specific to your questions.  BTW he is one of the developers of the UTW-100.  

DR5000

"I think i have eliminated the dr5000 due to reported claims of run away trains and other bugs."

  I've had a DR5000 since shortly after they came out and have not had any problems with it. I've used it with my Digitrax duplex throttle and an ipad with good results. The only thing I didn't like about it was having to use a PC to set it up, but once set up it's been fine. I like the Digikeijs booster too and the fact that it works with loconet. For a simple shelf layout I'd prefer something self contained like a power cab or a Zephyr as not much walking around is required. For larger layouts the Digikeijs system would work fine and cost a bit less than most comparable systems. ......DaveB

HVT Dave,I think i wasn't

HVT Dave,

I think i wasn't clear,  when I said I would go with a powercab I meant i would just get a powercab and forgo the UWT..

For a new system using a UWT it seems like the zephyr makes more sense then the powercab as its more capable and overall a better value.  But I have learned the WFD30 can hold the loco roster so that is a plus for nce.

Thanks Stuart

Stuart,  Thanks for the post!  Good information but it still leaves me with some questions.

As an example, as per this youtube video 

So.... my question, what happens when the user changes to a different locomotive or power cycles the throttle?  Does that programming remain? or does it go back to the original default programming?  If it goes back to the default then it is losing that user defined programming

YouTube Example

DMR,

In the You Tube example, the user is changing from default soft key of:

1. Recall - recalls the previously operated locomotive/consist
2. Horn (F2)
3. Bell (F1)
4. Headlight (F0)

To

1. Horn (F2)
2. Bell (F1
3. Bell (F1) - It does not look like the user changes this from its default, more on this below
4. Headlight (F0)

This configuration change is non-volatile, and remains with the throttle through power cycles of both the system and the throttle. With the LNWI, changing the locomotive has no effect, because regardless of the locomotive, the LNWI always sends no function information.

When assigning soft keys, the throttle always assigns from left to right. In this case, when it gets to soft key 3, it is smart enough to know that Bell has already been assigned to soft key 2. It will then choose something else to assign to soft key 3.

Because and LNWI is in use, the throttle has no function information from the server. It is hard coded to assume that with no function information, horn is F2 and bell is F1, which is typical in North America (it is actually not typical in Europe, and there have been requests to make this behavior configurable). There are however no typical conventions (in North America) for any of the other functions above F2 (horn). Therefore the throttle makes the next logical choice and assigns F3 (without a label) to the left over soft key 3. This is actually just an alias for the keypad key labeled "3", which will also control function 3, 13, or 23 depending on the active "page" selected using the shift (up arrow) key.

Thanks,

Stuart

DCC Systems

The DCC systems that you should be looking at in 2021 are:

1. TCS CS-105 (not yet released)

2. Digikeijs DR5000

3. ESU Cab Control

4. Roco Z21

5. Digitrax DCS52

The whole NCE vs. Digitrax holy war is missing the forest for the trees, as there are several newer modern systems out there, like Digikeijs, Roco, and ESU. That being said, the Digitrax DCS52 is an unbeatable value, and it has a built-in PC interface, so you don't need the LNWI. Really, with any system, if you want to do more than just the very basics, you will need a PC interface to program decoders anyway, so you may as well use that for JMRI as well if you have a full-time layout PC available.

The PowerCab is a very limited system, and has an extremely steep and expensive upgrade path. NCE is an OK system, but is very overpriced for what they deliver compared to Digitrax, Digikeijs, and others.

There are also some alternative systems like SPROG and DCC++EX if that's something that's you're interested in.

Look for YouTube videos and

Look for YouTube videos and dig thru "What's Neat This week" as the factory guy was a guest a few shows back.  

thanks Stuart

Thanks Stuart, Between your explanation and the TCS made video it has been answered.  The answer is YES, when using a LNWI the user custom button programming remains when selecting a new loco

What was confusing me was the manual says "If you are connected to a server which does not communicate function data such as a LNWI, the buttons will return to their defaults."

All of your additional info helps a lot though, really explains the difference between using JMRI and a LNWI.

I realize now I should of titled this post "UWT questions" and not said anything about command stations.. haha!

Speak for yourself

Speak for yourself … it depends on what you’re after. I love the simplicity of the NCE throttles … I’m always scratching my head when I visit a Digitrax layout. I don’t have to “dispatch” a loco on NCE. 

I just roll my eyes every time I visit a Digitrax layout and we get a “slots full” error. Big design flaw, just have the system overwrite the oldest slot with the new loco. The designers of Digitrax need to get their heads examined over that design flaw or at least make it a configuration option to do auto slot management, sheesh.

NCE's double ended consisting is awesome. NCE has superb wireless as well, none of this simplex/duplex confusion. Finally, I have absolutely no use for LocoNet.

One very happy NCE camper here. The Digitrax throttle interface looks like it was designed by tech nerds so you’d better keep the manual handy.

Dan W.

Digitrax and NCE

While I think it's missing the boat, I'll still consider the direct question at hand... Digitrax vs. NCE.

Digitrax got a bad rap from the DT100, which was rather difficult to use. However, the DT400 and DT500 are equivalent to the NCE Pro Cab, and the DT602 is actually easier to use, as it breaks some stuff down more. At this point, the whole "Digitrax is hard to use" narrative is getting pretty old, as we're 15+ years into throttles on Digitrax that are equivalent to NCE in terms of ease of use.

That being said, while the ProCab and DT400 are equivalent in ease of use, the TCS UWT-100 blows both out of the water.

It's not rocket science. You release slots when you're done with them, and if you're got operators who aren't, just go into slot monitor and nuke some of them. Even the older throttles can access 120 slots, the newer ones can access 400. Other LocoNet-based systems have auto-releasing slots, but they have fewer of them, so I guess it's a toss-up.

Their consisting is literally their only selling point at this point, and it's only truly useful for a few niche applications. TCS is going to finally get consisting right with command station based double-ended consists, which should finally solve the consisting mess once and for all. NCE's radio is alright, but all proprietary radio systems have limitations. Digitrax's Simplex was one of the best proprietary systems, along with CVP, but they stopped making it. Wi-Fi throttles are superior to proprietary radio in every way.

Even if your railroad doesn't need detection/signaling/turnout controls, you still benefit from a network-based architecture. NCE's 9600 baud RS-485 buss is incredibly slow and inefficient, and poorly implemented at that. With more than a few operators, the whole things slows down and gets really laggy, and the radio is double polled, once in the RF interface, and once on the RS-485 bus, so it's even laggier. At least XPressNet is 6.5x faster and far more efficient in that way it polls and the way the throttles are set up.

NCE's looks like it was designed in 1994... because it was. Digitrax has recently updated their UX. I'm not a huge fan of Digitrax, they could have done a lot better, but at least they've tried... something.

NCE's system is OK for probably 90% of modelers... but why? It's more expensive, less expandable, slower, and has less functionality than Digitrax. NCE's only remaining selling point is their consisting, and that's really only relevant to a few very specific scenarios.

Stuart, When do you expect

Stuart,

When do you expect the UWT-50 to be shipping?  I preordered one of them.

And the holy war continues.  Will it ever end? 

Any, my plan is to use my TCS throttles with the LNWI with my old Digitrax Chief system.  When TCS comes out with their command station (any idea on when?) that will probably by my DCC solution going forward and we can leave the NCE/Digitrax war far behind.