Turns and Wayfreights

Both patterns are used.

A "turn" runs from origin terminal to a particular end point, and returns. 

Other types of locals run between yards performing work enroute.

IMO it makes sense to apply the type of operation that best fits your layout vs. some other dude's preference.

For instance, if you have a particularly large industry, or busy switching zone, it may make the most sense to have a dedicated turn or switch job for that industry, and not have a through local try to complete work everywhere along the line - but there might be other small industries dotted along that can be handled by the through local, and the dedicated large-industry job would not touch, even if they run past it.

On our club layout, pretty much all the local jobs are turns, because that's how it works out geographically (and on the prototype we are representing).

On my future layout, there will be end-to-end wayfreights as well as turn jobs, because that's how it works out geographically on my prototype. The main line has end to end trains that do switching work along the line in their direction, plus an extra turn for one particular location to handle heavier traffic and an awkward switching arrangement. The branchline is all extra turns.

Turns and Wayfreights - I concur

I think Chris did a good job describing what makes sense in the "real world". I have nothing else to add to the discussion.

Joe W.

Distance

If I understand your scheme you are running something like this:

That is fine.

There are as many ways to operate as you want.  A lot of it depends on how you want to operate things, the capacities of the yards, the capacities of the trains and the relative distances.

For example you could run both locals as a turn out of  Little Yard and no locals out of Big Yard.

A basic day of pay for a train is roughly 100 miles (more modern eras may have longer basic days by 10-20 miles).  That doesn't mean that the local can ONLY go 100 miles, it means that they get additional pay if they travel more than 100 miles.  However if they travel less than 100 miles, they still get the basic day.

That means the distance between the big yard and little yard comes into play.  If the distance is in the 40-70 mile range then a turn is reasonable, because the total distance the train operates is in the ball park of 100 miles (40 miles out, 40 miles back = 80 miles total trip).  On the other hand, if the distance between the two yards is closer to or more than 100 miles, then that makes a round trip more expensive than two turns.  Lets say the distance is 90 miles.  90 miles out plus 90 miles back is 180 total miles.  100 miles is a basic day, then 80 miles at time and a half, that is the equivalent of 120 straight time miles.  Total mileage is 220 miles.  If you ran two 45 mile turns, one out of each end, that would be two basic days, 200 miles, less costly by 20 miles. 

(BIG CAVEAT HERE :  Rates of pay vary all over the map depending on era, railroad, location, agreement, etc.  My examples are hypothetical and I am 1000000% percent sure somebody can come up with an exceptions to the pay rates I have given).

Another consideration is time.  If you are pre-1970's the hours of service is 16 hours and if you are post 1976 its 12 hours.  The amount of switching and travel each job has, has to be less than the hours of service.  If its 1980 and a job has 14 hours of switching, then that won't work, they will have to split the work to keep from hogging the jobs.  On the other hand, if the job can do the work in less than 8 hours, they will use a turn because it can do all the work.  The ideal thing is to have 8 hours of work for each job.  If there is less work, the railroad is paying for work that's not being done, if its more than 8 hours, once again they may be paying more than a basic day.

If there was only 3 or 4 hours work on each local and the distances were 25-30 miles on each side of Little Yard, you could run one job, that would be based out of Little Yard, it would make a turn to the left then a turn to the right and switch the whole subdivision.  A modern version would be to base both jobs out of Little Yard and run Local 1 M-W-F and Local 2 T-T-S with the same crew and power.

Bottom line, there is an example for virtually every type of operation you want.

When I was Trainmaster at N Little Rock, the Hoxie Sub had something like I drew, where the local out of N Little Rock ran to Newport on a tri-weekly basis on the south end of the Sub and the local out of Poplar Bluff ran to Newport on a tri-weekly basis on the north end of the Sub, but on the Pine Bluff sub, I had a daily local that ran the entire length of the Sub (like your friend suggested) with a local turn that operated out of Pine Bluff Yard (roughly the equivalent of Little Yard) in the middle of the Sub and handled industries about 10-miles either side of the yard, plus the yard itself.  When I was at Spring, TX we had a mix of turns handling 25-30 miles either side of the yard and then long daily locals that ran in several directions.  All sorts of options.

Not all that different from my operation

I used to operate my locals as turns.  I also operated them as extra trains dispatched by train order.  That all changed when I instituted a new Timetable #4, effective August 18, 1952. 

Timetable #3 only had passenger trains as scheduled trains, and all freights were dispatched as extras.  Since this thread concerns turns, here is how I changed things.

Operations under Timetable #3:

1. The "Moravia Turn", dispatched as an extra or work extra (dispatcher's choice) operated from my main yard to the town of Moravia, and then returned to the main yard. 
2. The "Eldee Turn", dispatched as an extra or work extra (dispatcher's choice), operated from my secondary yard to Eldee and returned to the secondary yard.
3. The "Kirsten Mills Turn", dispatched as an extra or work extra (dispatcher's choice), operated from my secondary yard to the town of Moravia and returned to the secondary yard. 
4. In addition to these trains dispatched under train order, there is a local switch job that works out of the main yard and switches the industries in that vicinity.  That job works entirely within yard limits. 

Operations under Timetable #4:

1. The Moravia Turn and Eldee Turn were scrapped.  These were replaced by an eastward local originating at the main yard and runnng to the secondary yard (Train 500), and and westward local originating at the secondary yard to the main yard.  Each of these locals only do trailing point moves.  If there are cars that need to flow in the opposite direction that the local is heading, they leave those cars at the appropriate yard or storage track for pickup by the opposing train. 
2. The Kirsten Mills turn still operates out of the secondary yard as a turn, but is now a scheduled train (520 eastward, and 521 westward).  It is also designed to only work training point moves in each direction.  Cars can be left on a storage track for haul back to the yard.

The changes result in a reduction of two "trains" since four extra trains were replaced with two locals.  It is far more efficient, and eliminates a whole bunch of work in writing, dictating, and reading back train orders (Form G).  Now, these trains only require a clearance, unless the dispatcher issues train orders, such as to organize meets, or change the rights of trains.  

These changes, coupled with other changes, have made my railroad much more fluid, and much easier to dispatch.  I also feel that the 500./ 501 locals are much more interesting jobs.  

Regards,

Jerry

Baytown Sub

There is a lot of variation.  One thing that was handy on the real railroad was something called a traveling switch engine (TSE) on the MoPac.  On a railroad there are three basic types of train crews and each have their own work rules.  There are through freights, local freights and switch engines.  The MoPac had a hybrid that was called a TSE that was a through freight crew that worked much like a yard crew and was generally used to do local work.  They were bulletined to operate up to a 50 mile stretch of railroad from their home terminal.  As a caveat to operating TSE's there had to be a local operating over the territory and the TSE didn't need a yardmaster, the conductor or foreman operated as a "footboard" yardmaster and generated his own switch lists and could direct trains in yards.

The Baytown Sub was a 36 mile line from Houston, TX east to Baytown TX, along the north side of the Houston Ship Channel.  There were 136 main track switches in that 36 miles.  There was a yard on the west end, MK Yard and a yard near Baytown, Durham Yard on the east end.  The San Jacinto River crossed about the middle of the Sub.  The sub was originally built as an interurban line, the Houston North Shore, and passenger service lasted into the 1950's or 60's, last being provided by rail buses that looked like a bus but with steel wheels.  It was the only part of the MoPac that operated under electric, steam and diesel operation.

There were two locals, turns from Baytown to Houston and one from MK Yard to Houston.  In addition there were 12 TSE's per day  6 working out of Baytown (Durham yard) and 6 out of MK Yard.  The Baytown jobs could work the whole sub, but couldn't go to Houston.  The jobs working out of MK yard could go to Houston but could only go as far as the San Jacinto River.

That's an example of multiple turns, operating over the same area, having different working limits and different crew agreements.

Work extras

I have never understood the desire to run locals that travel more than one station as work trains under TT&TO, it really doesn't help the train and to do it efficiently, you can do pretty much anything with a regular train you can do with a work train if you give them the same orders.

When a work train is operated it must, "...whether standing or moving, must protect itself against extra trains within the working limits in both directions as prescribed by Rule 99, unless relieved..." (the same wording is in virtually every rule book I've read.)

If I am running a local as a work train between Anna to Dora, that means when the work train is in effect, it HAS to have flagmen out on BOTH sides of it to protect against extras ALL the time, regardless of where it is even when its running.   It can't run from Anna to Bess, put out flags, work, then run Bess to Cloy, put out flags and work.  It has to have flags out while its running Anna to Bess, Bess to Cloy, etc.  The only way to get around that is to relieve it from protecting against extra trains in one or both directions with a train order.  That also means that EVERY extra train has to be given a copy of the order and the extra trains that the work train is relieved from protecting against can't enter the limits while the work train is operating.  

A dispatcher can't make a meet between a work train and any other train because meets are between trains in opposite directions and a work train has no direction, plus a work train can go past the same point multiple times which could invalidate the meet.

If it is running on a schedule or as an extra it can make all the same switching at the stations, only has to provide flag protection  when its stopped, and you can issue the same type orders as you would to the work extra to relieve them from flagging, only they can be less restrictive.  Plus the dispatcher can use the full range of other orders (meets, passes, right overs, waits, etc) with a regular or extra train.

  "When a work train is

How does a train keep a flag man ahead of it's self  when running forward? .....DaveB

Flags

Exactly why running a directional train as a work extra is impractical.

Flagman

There are a couple ways that a railroad can handle work trains.  Run it into a the work area as an extra and then make it a Work Extra once it gets there.  

TO #5

To C&E Eng 123

Eng 123 works extra Cloy to Dora between 901 am and 1230 pm

TO #6

To C&E Eng 123

Eng 123 runs extra Anna to Fay 

Eng 123 runs as an extra Anna to Dora, dropping off a flag as it goes by Cloy, then drops off a flag at Dora.  Assuming that is after 901 am, it then uses TO 5 to work between Cloy and Dora.  When its done or 1230pm rolls around, it resumes using the Extra authority and continues on to Fay.  These orders need only be given to the C&E Eng 123.

Or......

If its a work train that is going on duty at the same point several days in a row, crew on duty at 700am, work train begins work at 800 am:

TO # 7 

To C&E Eng 123

Eng 123 works extra Cloy to Dora between 801am and 1230 pm not protecting against extra trains until 901am

The crew comes on duty, gets the train together and then at 801 am it car run between Cloy and Dora to set out flags.  The "not protecting" part keeps extra trains out of the limits until 901 am allowing them to establish flag protection.  This order has to be given to every extra train operating that is authorized to operate through the limits until 901 am.

Note these get really easy if its a work train operating in short limits.  If its a work train over a long area, i.e. Anna to Fay, it becomes problematic.

  "I have never understood

Is that often done? Work train to me means a train doing railroad work on track or r/w while local means a train doing local work for customers. .....DaveB

Work trains

Its done a lot on model railroads and it was done on some prototype railroads.  The idea of making a local a work extra is to let it run back and forth between stations at will.  Most of the time on the prototype, they had to cover it with a bunch of "...not protecting against...." orders which creates a wall around the limits.  Not too much of an issue with a branch that runs a couple trains a day, but on most model railroads if done right, can really impede the operations.

I have had people with prototype experience argue VERY strenuously against my assertion its not a good way to run locals.  All I can say is the road I worked for frowned on using a work extra to operate locals.

By the way there is a difference, subtle though it may be, between a "work train" and a "work extra".  A work train can be authorized by any method, it just means its a train doing company business.  A work extra  was train authorized by a form H train order, regardless of what work it was doing.  On the UP any train with a "W" symbol was a work train, regardless of how it was authorized. The WNLTXT was a work train even if it was running as the Extra 3210 South or in CTC.

Variety

MT813/TIA,

I've given a lot of thought to the trains that will run on my layout, so your question caught my attention.

First thing I'd say is, since this is your layout, run the trains as you would like them to run, and in the way that you find enjoyable. Others might not have the same tastes, but that's OK.  When you're running solo ops, you want to be having fun yourself. 

That being said, I do like to listen to the suggestions of my operators.  Their ideas have often made my layout and its operation better.  I don't always act on their suggestions, but I do at least think them through. Sounds like you are trying to do that yourself, and you're to be commended for that.

Based on your description, it sounds like all your locals leave from one of your two yards and then return to their starting destination.  Nothing wrong with that at all. But maybe adding a little more variety to the locals would spice things up a bit.  Why not just have one or two of the local freights start at one yard, do their switching en route, then end up at the 2nd yard as your friend suggested? That would give a little more variety to the local jobs, so operators can pick what is to their liking. 

On my layout that is currently under construction, I recently redesigned one of my switching areas.  The main reason for doing that was because I felt the local jobs were too similar to one another, and I wanted more variety between them.

Now, after that redesign, one of my freight locals works from the west end of the main yard, and just switches the industries that are around the yard itself.  Another local departs from the yard, then works industries that are along the mainline. Yet another local leaves the yard, then switches a town that's just to the side of the mainline, so it needs to work with the dispatcher for mainline clearance.  Two other locals leave the yard then head down a branch line to switch industries at different locations on the branch, and operators there can work at their own pace without having to worry about mainline traffic at all.  

I won't describe the three local coal shifters I have that work mines on the layout, but each of them is set up to work in a slightly different way as well, so there is some variety between them even though the work they do is similar.

Though all these locals return to the same yard from which they departed, the variety I've built in makes each of them rather unique.  I'm hoping that anyone who comes over for an op session will be able to find at least one local that will be to their liking, so everyone will be happy, and leave with a big smile on their face. 

Hope that helps, and if nothing else, gives you a little more food for thought. 

Away terminal

Your friend must like sleeping in sketchy motels every other night.....

Scott Chatfield 

Feel

Its just a matter of what feel you want to convey with the locals, a job that serves one area, or a job that travels over a longer territory.  Neither is wrong, as Paul described, you can vary the operation to change the feel.

Following along with interest . . .

TIA,

My situation is very similar to yours.  I have one staging yard that represents East and West.  I have one modeled yard with 4-5 tracks that is on the main, connected to staging, and a small 2-track yard at the end of the branch.

My current operating scheme is a sequence, just like yours.  I have about 14 trains.  4 passenger, 2 coal, 2 locals, and eastbound and westbound through and some logging trains.  Each train serves a specific purpose and specific industries, once per "day" or operating session.

Now, I have a friend who has a layout with a yard at each end.  He runs a "westbound" and an "eastbound".  These go back and forth between the yards, switching all towns along the way, with the only limit being trains can't be more than 7 cars long.  Then he has operators in the yards and on his switchback, and one in a very large town.  In that town, the eastbound/westbound just drops off and picks up cars.  Running that town is one of my favorite jobs.

I explain all of this because people REALLY like my friend's style of operation.  It's very laid back and relaxed, and he has a lineup of people wanting to run his railroad.  I've been operating there for over a decade, and it does not get boring.  

Some of those folks have tried out my operating scheme, and find it too restrictive and not as much fun.  Others like it, and it works well when I'm running solo, which is most of the time.  

BUT . . . now I'm wondering if mine would work better if the locals were "work trains", and the coal trains were too.  One person would be in charge of moving coal, however they see fit.  Another would work the branch industries.  The limit would be the length of train allowed, like on my friend's railroad.  One person would run the passenger trains, and one would handle the logging railroad.  One person would run the yard.  That's 5 jobs and the most my layout can handle.  Hmmm . . . food for thought.

Restrictive?

Why do they consider it restrictive?  Is it that the trains serve the same specific industries or that they don't switch enough industries or that the switching is the same every time?

A work train is a train that is employed in company service and doesn't switch industries.  Do you mean a turn or traveling switch engine?

W&N Operations

I have yards at both ends and one in the middle.

The yard at Wilmington has a yard switcher who mostly switches and builds trains, plus an industry job that works industries in the Wilmington terminal area.  The yards at Birdsboro and Coatesville both have a yard engine that works industries in those terminals plus switch and build trains/cuts.  There is a double daily local (each direction every day), one direction per session, that switches all the online industries over the whole length of the railroad (8 stations).  There is a turn that runs out of Wilmington and works a branch, one switching area. 

On top of that are the through freights (2 or 3 each way) that run the full length of the layout and set out or pick up blocks at 1 to 4 stations, although most only work one or two of them (SWD: fill at French Creek Jct, set out and pick up at Coatesville, pick up at Montchanin, set out and pick up at Elsmere Jct.  NWD : Pick up at Montchanin, set out and pick up at Coatesville, pick up at French Creek Jct.)  Lastly there are a couple of through freight turns per session that move cars between the northern and middle yards, and set out at French Creek Jct.  On top of that are 2 or 3 passenger trains per session, that work as a turn between the northern and southern terminals (1 or 1 1/2 turns per session).

Pretty much no train runs staging to staging, all trains run out of a visible yard.  Virtually every train "breaks the train line" , nothing just runs, every train works some place.  At some future point, even the passenger trains.

I try to pay a lot of attention to what the operators have to do.  The switch engines are sized so that they have roughly 2-2 1/4 hours of work.  The locals are sized to take about 30" to an hour.  The thru freights take about 20" plus meets per trip.  The locals and the thru freights have about 10-15" of terminal time on them (moving engine to the train at origin, moving engine to service area and turning engine on the termination).  The whole operation is designed to have operators with a throttle in their hand for 1/2 to 3/4 of a session.  I have been to operating sessions where out of a 3 hour session, I was physically operating a train for maybe 30"-45 and part of that was navigating the bowels of the layout in and out of staging.

about 30" to an hour.?

Hi Dave,   Was this intended to be minutes or seconds? .....DaveB

Time

Convention I’ve always seen is single quote hours and quote means minutes.  

3’16” = three hours sixteen minutes 

The jobs are 30 minutes to an hour.

??

I don't think I've seen time done like that before... 3'16" . That means 3 feet 16 inches to me....   which doesn't make sense, that would be 4 feet 4 inches.

I've always seen it 3:16:00  (hour:s:minutes:seconds)

Context

If I say the meeting was 2'10" long, that's time, hours and minutes, if I say the board was 2'10" long that's length, feet and inches.

Lots of superscripts have multiple meanings.  A 200 degree angle is different than a 200 degree pot of water.

If I say the meeting was

The point remains though that 2'10" for time is a non-standard and ambiguous use... the "proper" indication is 2:10, needing only the addition of AM or PM if a specific time is indicated. Even better (with no risk of ambiguity and commonly used for elapsed time) would be 2h10m05s.

not to mention

Degrees(°) minutes(') and seconds(") on a map.  Fun, wow!  "my trip was 2° 3'4" long, at a lattitude of 4° 5' 3"."

Wot?

Lots of superscripts have multiple meanings.

Yeah, in angle notation   ' is minutes and " is seconds....DaveB