Thoughts...

Dear J,

Um, there were absolutely prototypes for much of the B'mann Lee Riley era On30 line,
let's just put that "if it ain't 2 or 3' gauge, it's not a real NG prototype" furphy to bed (again) one-more-time...

< fires up Google, and the readily available archives>

See "Ohio River and Western"

https://www.amazon.com.au/Hidden-Treasures-Story-Western-Railway/dp/0965021335

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_River_and_Western_Railroad

https://www.pinterest.com.au/katwoman9999/trains-bzcorw/

See July/Aug 1997 NG&SLG
https://www.urbaneagle.com/slim/NGSLGplanlist.html

Which one? Assuming we are talking about the original Large-Archbar equipped one,
All of the above, plus See March/Apr 1997 NG&SLG
https://www.urbaneagle.com/slim/NGSLGplanlist.html
/>
(Derivation of the flatcar, but not totally out-of-realm of possibility, maybe taking a note from the B&SR?)

We'll deal with the newer SR&RL-archbar-truck'd shorty tank-flat in a moment...

This is where we start talking Post Lee Riley era (RIP Lee),
and the models did start being "freelance NG" (dare I say "cute" NG),
instead of based on known prototypes...
...and I'm including the "new shorty tank-flats" from above which are based on the 18' flatcars...

I hope this helps...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

  "I'm curious what the

Have you searched for info on 30 inch prototype railroads? Seems like the place to start looking would be to find the railroads then see if you can find roster photos. I've never seen a 30 " common carrier mentioned in the western US. There was once a small gauge mining railroad serving the local cement plant but it might not have been 30 inch gauge. In general I don't think most On30 modelers care about prototypes, if they did the scale/gauge combo would not have gotten as popular, If they were prototype oriented they could have modeled in On3 instead. ....DaveB

Lee Liked Catalogs

Specifically Baldwin Locomotive Catalogs. He even got the couplers right. The below quote is from USA law code 'Code of the Federal Register, CFR 49 section 232.2'.  Therefore; 1/2 size at a low height.  In O scale using H0 couplers at H0 height is about right.

Many of the On30 locomotive he did were catalog engines.  For instance; the 4-4-0 was from the Baldwin Narrow Gauge Catalog and many such went to South America.  There was one very close one at the Mt Gretna RR.

As for freight cars he did many from prototype 2' RRs and 30" RRs. 

After he died, All bets are off.

Side-dump cars prototype?

Since i was about to ask something very similar, i hope it is not a problem to ask it here,

Any ideas on the prototypes for the on30 side dump (wood) cars? The ones that come in 3-packs. Where they using cars like these in 1870-1880s for mine/ore runs or they are too modern for this?

Google says...

Dear Yannis,

A lightning-quick Google says "Western Wheeled Scraper Side-dump" cars are your target prototype...
(Another big shout-out to the late Lee Riley...   ).

https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM109596

https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM109595

https://www.worldsweeper.com/History/AustinWestern.html

http://www.gouldstudios.com/loco_Side_Dump_Car.html

Interesting US military version, with buffers added for use in Europe...

NB that WWS did these cars in 4-wheel "single tub",
2-truck "dual individual tub",
and SG versions in 2-truck "double-length tub" versions...

https://nevadasouthern.com/equipment/six-companies-side-dump-car/

they were evolved into steel-body units over the design lifetime, 
with an arguable lineage which can be seen in the more-modern steel SG "Difco" type side-dumper...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Prof Klyzir, Very

Prof Klyzir,

Very informative; I'm think Yannis will be please to see this.

Yosemite Short Line Railway Company

Started in 1905 and built a few miles of track at 30" gauge (!!!) and had actual 18 foot cars built.

A flat car.

 A boxcar.

Sadly, at least for On30 modelers, the San Francisco earthquake put an end to the endeavor.

David Stewart

Awesome info Prof!

Many thanks.

Unfortunately from a quick look they appear too modern for 1870-1880, so back to low-side gons.

Bachmann V-tips

Hi Yannis, all,

The On30 V-tip wagons (also in a 3 pack were supplied in a whole flock of sizes, capacities and gauges from many different suppliers worldwide. These were a development of the underground mining tub that dates back well previous to the industrial revolution. Both V and U shaped hoppers were used. The earliest U shaped fixed hopper skips appear in Agricola's "De Re Metallica" book dating from the mid-1500's.  Suppliers producing V-tips included Decauville (France), Arthur Koppel (Germany) Robert Hudson (UK), and Granby (and many others in the US and worldwide). 

These V-tip wagons were used in a lot of different industries, from agriculture (aka Feldbahn), quarrying, coal mining, non-ferrous mining, construction of dams, roads, buildings, archaeological excavations, brick making,  etc. Just about anywhere where "dirt" was moved on rails. The use of similar small metal V-tip wagons predated locomotive haulage.    

For Yannis, for your period, Decauville got going in the mid-1870's , so even they may be too late - which brings you back to something  like an upsized version of this timber inside-framed coal skip design for moving stuff from underground to the surface. 

These were supplied in a range of gauges and body heights and lengths from the 1700's in the UK, Europe and later in US coal mines. Early on the capacity was limited initially by what 1 or 2 men could push and later by what a horse or mule could drag. This one is on 2' gauge but wider gauges up to 3'6" and later in standard gauge were used in lower-height coal seams once horse and locomotive haulage occurred.  

Larger wagons like these bottom-dump standard-gauge chauldron waggons dating from the late 1700's (2g's is correct for the period) could be scaled down to narrower gauges. The last waggon in the photo below is the horse transporter - the horse got a free ride downhill but had to drag the empties back uphill to the mine. 

These originally were horse-drawn and ran on many different gauges before standard gauge was legislated in the UK in the 1890's. In the US 4-wheel coal "jimmies" dominated the mainline coal haulage task in the East until 20 low-side bogie timber gondolas started to take over from the 1880's (source "Coal Trains: The History of Railroading and Coal in the United States" by Brian Solomon on page 8 that contains the jimmie photo in the link above)  

V-tips would fit your period but would be probably using either loose-link on hook or link and pin couplings rather than knuckle couplings as fitted to the Bachmann On30 V-tips.

Thanks John!

Much appreciated info on the prototypes of the v-dump cars.

(Parentheses, since i don't want to go too much OT, for what I am looking for, ie getting silver/gold ore from an ore trestle/chute to a mill via the mainline, would these v-dumps work or am I better off using low side gons?)

Silver/gold haulage

Dear Yannis,

Instinctively, I would be reaching for a wooden-version of the "small Giilpin Ore Cars" by Grandt Line,
(I've built some cheaply by starting with a Tichy HO wood shorty ore hopper, building a stripwood frame around the styrene body at frame level to widen-slightly and provide the extended end-platforms,
and using the provided Tiichy archbar trucks with HO 36" metal wheels swapped-in for On30 20" dia wheels...)

OR if you want somethiing more "chunky", try the shorty ore cars from Morgan Hill Models
http://www.morganhillmodels.com/MHM128OreCar.html

OR, if you're OK with leaving "trucked" cars behind and going to 4-wheel cars,
try the high-density ore cars from Wisemans Model Services...
https://wisemanmodelservices.com/On3-On30-EUREKA-MILL-ORE-CARS-2-PACK

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

PS I hesitate to mention them, as they are long out-of-production, but Stevens Creek Models did a drop-dead-gorgeous 18' "Yosemite Short Line" inspired centre-tub ore hopper laser-cut wood kit waaay back when...
(Thought I had some of these salted away in the warehouse, but they may have gone to a good-home sometime between then and now...)

 Take these are inspiration, use the Tichy hopper as a donor to form the hard-to-scratchbuild-in-qty "centre hopper bit", and you could be well on your way...
(...because ore hoppers really do look better "in qty"...)

PPS it also occurs to me that if one wanted more-modern "steel hopper" versions, similar "HO hopper with wood frame" conversions could be done using cheap MDC ore hoppers as the donors...
(Prof dives into the warehouse... where did I put those otherwise-redundant MDC hopper bodies?)

PPPS ...and by strange co-incidence, the MRH Search box at top right of this page, turned up this circa 2014 thread...
https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/16713 
/> (NB some of the manufs mentioned are now "fallen flags", which is a tremendous loss to On30... :-(  ).

The Eureka Mill alongside the

The Eureka Mill alongside the Virginia & Truckee RR ordered dump cars from the V & T shops in Carson City in the early 1870s. These cars were smaller than the V & T cars built around 1870.

http://www.pacificng.com/template.php?page=roads/nv/eurekamill/index.htm

These 5 ton Eureka cars are available: https://www.ebay.com/itm/133702527309
/> Regards, Volker

Wooden Gilpin version!!!

Volker and Prof many many thanks!

Prof, the Tichy based idea for a wooden version inspired by the Gilpin tram ore cars sounds really nice! I also like the idea of the Yosemite style cars based on something like an 18' flat car.

Eureka!!

Hi Yannis, all,

"Eureka" in more ways than one. Thanks Volker for the Eureka Mill link, that's one I didn't know about with a 30" gauge railroad in 3' gauge territory. It looks like "Eureka" that still exists may have been the inspiration for the Bachmann's second on30 locomotive - the On30 Porter 0-4-0   See  http://www.pacificng.com/imglib/main.php?g2_itemId=9517 It was a true 30' gauge locomotive as shown by the Porter order book. Other photos of "Eureka" can be seen at   http://www.pacificng.com/imglib/main.php?g2_itemId=505