BN green paint

Minuteman Scale Models makes a good BN green paint called Scalecoat I BN Green

minutemanscalemodels.com item number 10382

This would be a good green color.  You would have to do your own fading process to get the weathered look

That is the question

What is BN green? A question that has stymied BN modelers for 51 years now.  Inevitably, someone in the discussion will post a photo of x number of BN locos with x+1 shades of green.  I used to use Floquil but then ran out.  Since my paints seem to harden before I finish the bottle, yes, I've tried all the tricks except filling the bottle with nitrogen before I close it, I started using the smallest bottle I could find.  Most recently it's been a Testors enamel mixed with a little black and a little yellow to match my version.

In the early 2000s, I painted a model of BN 2768 with Floquil and about 10 years later 2753 with Scalecoat.  The greens were surprisingly different and I wanted them to match a little better.  The joke when mixing paint at work was to always add more yellow.  In this case the Scalecoat looked too yellow so I knew that wasn't it.

I'm not sure how you would pull this off but maybe it will give you an idea.  I set the two locomotives end to end on the track and took a photo, making sure they were lit exactly the same.  I used the color picker tool in Photoshop elements to grab samples of the different green colors.  The Scalecoat painted loco, 2753, was consistently less red than the Floquil painted loco.  I hadn't done the decals yet so tinted some Glosscote red and gave the 2753 a tint job.  I added decals and some weathering and it is one of my favorite paint jobs now.

Considering the GP39Es are two of my favorite locos, I thought I had a photo of just the two of them.  Here they are on either side of a Scale Trains SD40-2 for the required 3 shades of green.  IMHO, in person, the SD 40-2 looks too olive, needs a little more yellow.

Cascade Green

KJD is exactly right, there is no one "BN Green".  Locos delivered new from EMD in the '70s tended to have a slightly bluer shade than those from GE, and both were different from locos repainted by BN itself.  Of course BN had more than one paint shop.

I personally feel that the various brands of model paint labeled "BN Green" are too bright for most locomotives.   They are good for a lot of BN's freight cars,  especially those repainted by the BN.  But you want to paint a very faded switcher.  And fading paint can be tricky.

For that switcher I would start with a light tan and add green to taste.  Maybe just a touch of blue as well.  And there are probably areas of the engine that aren't quite as faded, so after shooting the lighter areas, add a little more green to the mix and hit those spots. 

Then there's the "black" underbody, which isn't even close to being pure black.  You need a dark grey here.  You only want pure flat black in the areas that would be in deep shadow.  You can do that with a wash after painting the dark grey.  Don't forget the rust wash in places.

Which paint brand to use is a whole 'nother can of worms.  First off, do you have an airbrush?  Most brands of model paint will not brush on evenly, especially the lighter colors.

Second, do you have a decent hobby shop nearby?  It's nice to be able to look at paints in person.

I'll wait for your answers before continuing. 

Scott Chatfield 

Thanks for the tips

pbrankle - I’ll check that out. 

kjd - I really like the red tint idea. It turned out great on the 2753. I’ll probably do that to fade before decaying and since this loco has very little white, I won’t have to worry that the red tint contaminates the white. Thanks for the comparison photo that really helps.

Scot - Cascade Green is pretty elusive isn’t it. I’m hoping tho find a base color that I can rely upon and then modulate from there. I’ll be airbrushing. I would prefer acrylic paints, but not sure if it’s possible to have as nice of a finish as if I used lacquer or enamel. The black is another color I’d like to get close with too. The hobby shops near me stock Vallejo, Mission Models, Humbrol, Tamiya and some Mr. Color. 

One other thing I was considering, but a little chicken to try is using a chipping solution on this project. The photos of the BN 149 I’ve seen show some paint chipping to a rusty base. I’m not exactly sure when these motors were retired, but the photo I referenced is from 1985 and it appears to be in a deadline. I’m pretending it’s still in service into the late 80’s and early 90’s.

Greg

I don't think the photo of 3453 is from 1985, it has been patched for BNSF.  3453 looks to have finished its career in Tacoma and even showed up in Google Streetview in 2014.

Also, the red was specific to my case, to get 2753 to match 2768 a little better.  You might be able to grab samples from photos, such as BNSF 3453, pictured above, but would have to be very careful about shadows, etc but to get the extreme fading, like Scott said, the best might be starting with tan and adding green.

edit: I realize the 1985 photo you mentioned was probably this one.  It looks to be in lots better shape than 3453.  You were right though, it was retired in October of 1985, according the Biel's photo archive.

Paul

Wrong date

That SW1500 appears to be BNSF 3453 so it's after 1995 and probably well after 2010, judging by the fading.  Here is 3453 working in Tacoma in 2010:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2246699

I can't say I ever saw a working BN-proper loco (pre-1995 BNSF merger) that was that faded.  BN was not afraid to repaint their equipment,  part of the reason there are so many shades of "BN Green".

Most hobby shops can get Badger's ModelFlex which has a number of different greens, yellows, and a tan or three when you include their military and ship colors.  ModelFlex is a water-based paint that is usually ready to airbrush right out of the bottle.  If you thin it do so sparingly because it can get runny very quickly.  It drys fast so do light coats because it can also get runny if applied too heavily.  I use Medea Airbrush Cleaner (16oz spray bottle from Hobby Lobby, $10 last time I bought some, $6 with a 40% off coupon) for cleaning and occasional thinning.

Mission Models and Vallejo are very similar paints as far as I can tell.  Vallejo's "Black Grey" #70.862 Model Color should get you close to that faded black.  I don't know if they have that color in their Model Air line, which is supposedly airbrush-ready.

Many shops in North America have had trouble getting Vallejo during the recent unpleasantness, because it comes from Spain. 

I have yet to shoot Mission Models through my airbrush.   I've only used it for touch up, so if it doesn't behave like Vallejo's Model Color I like to hear about it.  I like the range of colors in their line, but it does appear to be about 50% more expensive than Vallejo.

I like Tamiya's acrylic colors but two caveats: it isn't truly water based so I only use their thinner to shoot it ( and generally thin it about 25%), and most of their colors are two stark for model railroad use straight from the bottle.  I use their X-1 Black for base coats on some models (NS locos, for instance) and it gives a nice ready-to-decal semi-gloss.  Tamiya's Hull Red is another good color for some freight cars.  Unfortunately, I think their Dull Red is only available in spray cans (#TS-33) but its great for many older freight cars and pre-WW2 Pennsy passenger cars.

Tru-Color makes a wide range of railroad colors but it's not as widely available as the brands you mentioned.   Also, it is alcohol based and very sensitive to humidity in the air when you shoot it.  The nice things about it are it dries very fast and gives a ready-to-decal gloss in a matter of minutes.  Again, I only thin it with their thinner (which ain't cheap) but it can be cleaned up with acetone or lacquer thinner.

As for shades of BN Green, I have used MKT Green and even Reading Green on some of my BN models, depending on what they looked like in photos, and tweaked those greens on occasion with yellows, tans, or blues.

You know, people often debate the shades of BN Greens, but I rarely hear anyone ask about UP Armour Yellow, and that can be all over the place, especially after 1980.

Scott Chatfield 

TruColor

I used TruColor BN green for this model and was happy with the color render ....

Mark.

Mark...

NICE job on the boat!

Obviously you must like TruColor.

Handling/applying TruColor via an airbrush, how does it compare to the old Floquil?

* Do you have to thin more/less/none?

* Does it flow with about the same PSI pressure as 50/50 Floquil?

* What kind of finish, gloss or flat? Or is available in either gloss or flat?

My stash of Floquil will soon deplete to where some colors will have to be sought and found, so I know I'll be making a change eventually... but I'm adrift as to knowing which direction to go. I am not interested in acrylic. (I want to add to the dain bramage I've already sustained.)

Andre

TruColor

Hey Dain Bramaged, at least the alcohols in TruColor aren't as bad for you as the stuff that was in Floquil, especially old school Floquil.

Most TruColor paints are glossy and go on very thin.  You definitely need a primer for the lighter colors.  Some of the darker colors can be shot straight from the bottle.  Some need a bit of thinner but not 50/50.  I start at 4 to 1 paint to thinner.  And I only use their thinner.  It dries fast, too fast if you're not careful.  I shoot at between 15 and 18 psi, with the brush about 6 inches away from the surface.

I can't overstate this.  TruColor uses hydroscopic alcohols that will suck water right out of the atmosphere.   In high humidity,  above 60% relative, this can fog the colors and/or effect the paint adhesion.  Folks out West don't need to worry about it much.  Folks back East do need to watch the humidity.

When used properly TruColor gives you a beautiful finish that is ready for decals before you can clean the airbrush.  Ignore the humidity or try to use the wrong thinner and the results can be ugly.  But at least you can strip the paint off of plastic if you make a mistake.  Try doing that with Floquil or Scalecoat.

Scott Chatfield 

Thanks Scott

TruColor has been the direction I'm leaning when I think of the change ahead.

Humidity is a problem in the spring and most of the summer here. However, I have a water trap inline on my air hose... think that will suffice or do I need something fancier? Also, it will be applied using a paint booth in a controlled (AC/Heated) environment. (The A/C helps de-humidify the room?)

Andre

Humidity vs TruColor

A water trap helps, Andre, but it's the water in the air between the nozzle and the surface that's the problem.   Once atomized the solvent has a huge surface area with which to absorb moisture from the air.  In the warmer months I'd check the humidity inside your workspace with a hygrometer.

Scott Chatfield 

Vallejo test

I have 2 shops nearby that have a really good selection of Vallejo so I thought I’d give Vallejo a try before I ordered something else online. I tried Vallejo’s Green Zinc Chromate 71.094 and Pale Green 71.095 (I already had the pale green on hand so might as well test it).

I tested small samples of each color over white, tan, light gray, panzer gray, red/brown, and black primer.

I settled on red/brown or black primer giving the best tint once the top coat was applied. And then did a larger sample to test both paint colors over the black and red brown primers.

 
Upper left - Green Zinc Chromate over Red/Brown Primer
Lower left - Green Zinc Chromate over Black Primer
Upper right - Pale Green over Red/Brown primer.
Lower right - Pale Green over Black primer

The Pale Green does resemble some parts of reference photos where the sun is hitting the panel, but I’m not really satisfied with either color. 
 

I ordered the Badger Modelflex BN Cascade Green last night. I prefer to use an acrylic color. I’m looking forward to giving that a try. 

Model Flex BN

I've used Model Flex BN Green in the past and it's pretty close to my eye for the right color of a new paint/lightly weathered paint. 

Is this going to be a shelf queen? Or are you dipping into P48?

Thanks Craig

It’ll be a Proto:48 runner. I’ve got some ideas for a traveling sectional layout (and a 30’ long hallway that’ll be a good place to set it up at home.) 

Breaking this engine down and super detailing it is very addicting and challenging. I have to resist the urge to buy more project locomotives and focus on finishing this one. But if I find another one of these motors super cheap

Shelf layout P48

I'd love to snag a long walk in the house for a small P48 shelf layout but I've gotten a resounding NO from beautiful bride... She said trains have to stay in the garage and backyard.

If I ever ditched my outdoor modeling, I think it would be an easy switch to P48.

Remember the MRH Acrylic Paint Guide

Remember the MRH Acrylic Painting Guide. It’s free to download as a PDF for registered MRH forum members, and it has paint formulas for 92 colors to match Floquil and PolyScale, including BN Green.

The guide also has the formula for high performance acrylic paint thinner. If you use the HP thinner formula, it will transform your acrylic airbrushing experience, making acrylics spray a lot more like solvent paints.

Make sure you check the updates link in the front of the book because the HP thinner formula has been updated recently.

Anyone I’ve talked to who has tried the HP thinner formula raves about how it transforms spraying acrylics into a real pleasure.

As a fan of Vallejo Model Air / Game Air paints, the HP thinner is my go-to airbrushing thinner. I typically mix 20% HP thinner when I’m going to airbrush VMA or VGA paint. I’ll also thin MODELFlex with 15% HP thinner for spraying. Model Master tends to get more thinner for airbrushing, like 30%.

@Joe HP Thinner seems "hot"

My only complaint about the HP Thinner is that it seems a bit "hot" when you use it to make washes for weathering. I've ruined a few projects by making a wash with the HP Thinner ( this is from the old Armour All recipe) that ate through a acrylic clear coat, acrylic base ( thinned with HP Thinner) and got down to bare plastic. 

I didn't notice the problem on my first batch so I'm wondering if I accidentally got the newer Armour All instead of the old stuff. And I want to try using the new improved formula but I'll still have another 1/2 gallon left.

But for regular airbrushing and thinning it works great.

Get an old Blue-Box SW shell

Get an old Blue-Box SW shell to practice on before touching your O model.

Ask me why I say this....

Yep, new Armor All formula: BAD

That sounds exactly like that’s what happened — you got burned by the new Armor All formula.

The new Armor All formula includes isopropyl alcohol (IPA), which reacts with most acrylic paints and does bad things — the other ingredients are hot enough, adding IPA to the mix just throws the HP thinner over the top and makes it too “hot” as you say. 

Adding IPA to their formula ruined the Armor All for our purposes, unfortunately. The new formula for HP thinner should “cool” it back down again and make it safe for use with acrylic coatings again.

Get an old Blue-Box SW shell

OK I’ll bite. I was actually thinking I’d just paint the model and strip again if it doesn’t turn out that good. The most I think I’ll lose is paint and a few Archer decals. But is this not a good idea?

MRH Acrylic painting guide

Thanks Joe,

I forgot there was a conversion chart in there. It looks like there is a Vallejo formula to match what I’m looking for. If the Modelflex doesn’t work out I’ll probably try my own mix pert that’s formula. 

I mainly paint with Vallejo, but the amount of thinner I use is so little I never felt it justified mixing up a bottle of home brew thinner. I’ve found that a drop or two of Vallejo thinner and maybe a drop of flow improver is about all I ever really need.

Vallejo and MRH HP thinner

Createx HP Reucer

Thanks Joe

I have very little experience spraying solvent paints, but when I have I’ve noticed they spray real nice (but send me to choking fits soon after). So a better flowing acrylic paint sounds nice. I actually have some Createx HP Reducer, but I’ve only used it with some createx paints I was trying a while back. I’ll mess around with that and see how it sprays. 

Add some flow enhancer + retarder

The MRH HP thinner adds a bit of flow enhancer and some retarder to the Createx HP reducer formula, so make sure you do that. Add 5% flow enhancer and 5% reducer to the Createx HP reducer to get the MRH HP thinner equivalent.

That combination takes a thinner formula that works very well (Createx HP thinner) and turns it into a thinner that totally rocks with our acrylic model paints.