Patrick_

Hey guys,

I’m just checking to see if there is anyone out there who can or knows anyone who could help me with my little shelf layout I’m planning.  Not looking for anything extraordinary. I’ve hit up a couple designers which I’m sure you’re all aware of. For what I need the prices are outrageous ( IMO ). Just want someone to look over the area I want to model and get some advice/help making sure I have a solid little track plan for my shelf layout. Mainly looking for something that will be more of a show piece until I have more room.  It’s 80 long 20 deep.  Please let me know if anyone is interested or knows someone. I’m willing to pay just not closer to 1k or even more.  Thanks. 

Reply 0
Chris Palermo patentwriter

LDSIG

Have you considered the Layout Design Special Interest Group, LDSIG, http://www.ldsig.org/?Join, attend one of their virtual events, and you’ll find that members are quite willing to help. You could also try posting a question in their Facebook group with an image of your plan, and chances are someone will provide useful comments at no cost. https://www.facebook.com/Layout.Design.SIG/

At Large North America Director, 2024-2027 - National Model Railroad Association, Inc.
Reply 0
fishnmack

layout plans

With all the interesting ideas presented in this forum alone, why would you even consider paying someone to plan/draw/design a tiny half door sized layout?  Not trying to be snarky with this question.

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Options

Dear Patrick,

Not sure if you're a FB user or not, but if you are,
you may want to reach out to Rob Chant and Issac Fabris on the Micro/Small Model RR Layouts FB group,

and/or visit  http://www.jomrd.com/

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
BOK

 Patrick it's really pretty

Patrick it's really pretty simple to design a nice shelf railroad and you will only need a few switches.

First you need a run around track so that an engine can get around a freight car or cars to be able to spot a car at an industry which is behind the engine but needs to be placed ahead of it. That's why we railroaders call it a run around track. Basically it's two switches one on each end of two tracks. There may be other modelers who don't include this important piece of track choosing to just shove and pull cars into a few spurs but this type of operation is less appealing and less realistic. Take it from a person who spent several years as an engineer/conductor...you want a run around track and at 80" length (a bit over 6') of your total space you will also want atleast 9" inches on each end of the run around so you can get an engine past each switch. 

So in your 80" atleast 3' will be consumed by the main track and run around track leaving you with a space of around 3' to be able to get around 3-4 60' scale freight cars plus a lead (portable track 3-4' long off one end of your main track) so you can bring in a train from "off scene" like in a play.

Now comes the fun part and that is adding a couple or more switches to serve industries (industrial customers of you choice but make them both trailing (behind the engine) and facing (ahead of the engine) switches to make switching challenging and satisfying. The industries can be any type you chose to match which type of freight car serves it: tank cars for liquids; covered hoppers for granular products like aggregates, cattle feed, grain, plastic pellets; boxcars for warehouse products like paper, canned goods; reefers (temperature controlled refrigerator cars for perishables like fruits and vegtables) and flats for lumber, drywall, machinery, etc.. 

The simple "operations scheme" is to bring the train from off stage onto the railroad with the engine leading (sceniced 80" long layout) switch the industries using the run around track and then depart back to the staging track with the engine on the opposite end pulling the cars back.

I'll attach a few photos on a simple O gauge railroad to illustrate how easy it is to design an interesting and satisfying model railroad.

Barry

26_thumb.jpg 40_thumb.jpg  48_thumb.jpg 24_thumb.jpg thumb(2).jpg 06_thumb.jpg 

Reply 0
chris.mincemoyer

Knowledge on the forum

Post your ideas here, space and I'm sure there are many on the forum who will give you plenty of ideas/help

Reply 0
ctxmf74

80 long 20 deep?

Have you decided on a theme for the layout? What era, what railroad,what kind of scenery( city ,mountain,etc.) . Once you know these it's easier to figure out what track plan will be best for that size layout. There are some basic track features that will fit so most of the planning will be your artistic goals ( visual impact and lasting appeal for your modeling focus) . As noted above there's probably no approach better than posting more of your preferences here and letting the group help you design it....DaveB

Reply 0
GeeTee

Part of the fun is planning ,

Part of the fun is planning , paging thru half a dozen books to get ideas. As pointed out , you need to figure out what kind of railroad / era you want to build , as well as what scale / gauge. Small bookshelf layouts lend themselves more to N and narrow guage , but it depends on what you want.

I don't know that 1K is all that unreasonable, if your wanting someone to come out and look around $100 /day plus expenses is probably the minimum so $200/day wouldn't surprise me . Thats just paying someone for their time at 10-$12/hr not their expertise. I wouldn't want to pay it either , thats just the reality of the world in which live. 

I think you would be better off just to pick up a bucket of Snap track and some switches and play around till you get something you like.

I for one am more than willing to criticize your track plan  , and I am sure there are plenty of others too, if thats what you want.A lot people say they do , then get offended if you point something out. 

  I have never seen a "wrong" or a "right" track plan ,some just work better than others. 

 

Reply 0
Douglas Meyer

Cost is relative

$900/$30 =30 hours.  900/50 =18 hours.   So even at relatively low hourly (remember all taxes, office expenses, insurance cost and hardware and software coats have yo come out of that before it is “wages”.  
So not really sure what you expect.

Do you just want a basic track layout, one option with no revisions?  Or do you expect an actual from scratch design with your wants and givens and druthers taken into account.   As well as revising it once or twice or more?  Then do you expect a more finished design calling out materials used bench work construction and or what buildings go where?

And the idea that it is small so should be simpler is usually not true. At the design stage.  It is just less work at the detailing stage as there is less yo do.  But design is usually harder for smaller spaces as  Larger spaces have more room to maneuver where as smaller spaces need to squeeze in.  So your design has less margin.

I find in retail design I often have to do twice to three times the number of plan variations for a small space as for a larger space before I have one plan worth submitting to the client,  And I typically need twice as many plans (or often more) because I need to be able to show the client that you can’t fit 10 pounds in a 5 pound bag and thus he can’t have everything and less is more in a small space,  whereas in a large space I can dump it all in and I just need yo find a pleasing way for it all to work together in a small space I have to figure out what can and should go into the space.

So the idea that this design could cost 750-1500 is not a huge surprise.  Don’t get me wrong I can understand why you may not want yo spend that much and I can understand your budget may not be able yo cover that cost,  And I understand that some folks may do it for a loot less or for free but they are not doing it as a living or really even a side hustle they are doing it as a hobby that someone will pay them a few bucks for.    But. Someone that does this to make money has to make enough to justify doing it.  And with the cost of everything today it is not worth the potential downsides yo do it for less.  Plus giving you a cheaper rate will effect the rate the designer can charge others.   

Trust me clients will use any excuse to try and pay less.  I had one client argue that it was to expensive on a per page Basis.  So I offered to quadruple his page count by putting everything on a separate page one detail per page…. 
 

So really your best bet is to design it yourself. Then ask for advise.  After all if it is so simple that it is not worth the cost then you should be able yo do it yourself…. And then if it works well you saved 900 bucks and get the credit and if it does not work out well you can fix your own design and it does not damage the professionals reputation.

By the way while not a perfesional Lay-out designer but a person that had to spend two days fixing the grades on an armature designers plan as his math was wrong,  I  an tell you that I won’t open my cad software for less the $500 as by the time I meet with the client to find out what they want,  set up the files, charge for administration time (bills don’t write themselves)  design the layout and creat the presentation  as well as subtract the above referenced coats it is simply not worth the bother for less then $500.  
 

Once again this is not intended as a slam on the OP it is just pointing out the realities from the other side.  And why things coast what they do.  In a world where a 2x4 costs what they are charging today nothing is cheep any more.   (see posts on the price of lumber) 

-Doug M

Reply 0
Neil Erickson NeilEr

Get what you pay for

That said I’m more than happy to help as well - for free. Either post your givens and druthers here or send me a note via “contact”. 
 

Scale

Era

Railroad (or not)

Locale

Operations or display

Are you a model builder? 
 

Those of us that design professionally do some things for fun too. 

Neil Erickson, Hawai’i 

My Blogs

Reply 0
Will_Annand

Decisions

You have to make several decisions before you can establish a track plan.

You have to consider the Where, When, What and Why first.

Where do you want the layout based? Urban, rural, mix.

When, what time period do you want the layout based in? Civil war, pre WWI, between wars, WWII, transition, modern. 

What, do you want a switching layout, small industry, logging shortline or just an out and back?

Why do you want a layout? To switch cars around, to recreate a specific scene or just to railfan?

Your answers to all those questions will decide what type of track plan best suits you.

 

Reply 0
Patrick_

I made the magazine!!

Awesome! Thanks Joe and everyone who responded 

Reply 0
Patrick_

Perfect

Thank you sir!

Reply 0
MikeHughes

You know there is a track plans database …

… right on this forum?

MRH Track Plan Database

Reply 0
Sn2modeler

Have you looked at Rob Chant's trackplans?

Unless you have a specific prototype, I suggest you fit an existing model railroad trackplan.

I agree with others.  Have a theme and try to know what you want from the model railroad.  Do you find building fun?  Operations? or just want to display some favorite models?

I agree with Barry, given your small space a simple passing siding plus a few spurs is all you can do.

Take a look at Rob Chant's web site for inspiration:   Journal of Model Railroad Design | Blog (jomrd.com)

He has a database of trackplans he has designed for fun and clients.  Many are small.  Chose one of the small ones or just one location from one of the plans.  That location could be the start of larger layout later.

Rob has a search page here:  

Journal of Model Railroad Design| Track Plan Search (jomrd.com)

On the search page, try straight shefl and look through all the options, he has 81 plans to inspire you and help you understand what might fit.  Then look through other plans for inspiration.  Many " shaped or shelf layouts will have useful parts.

At 20x80", you can build in a no time....So easier to start...If it does not work, clean it off and start again.  You can lean more from trying and spend less money than hiring a designer.  Designers and reviewers are worth the money for a large layout, but on such a small layout it's hard to justify.  A designer will help you most if your have lots of detail to provide them.  They have to spend lots of their time asking questions to try to get the detail of what you want.

Good Luck

Dave K.

http://www.sn2modeler.com

 

Reply 0
MikeHughes

@Patrick, @ Dave K re Rob Chant’s Track Plans

Dave, Rob’s site is a fabulous resource - thank you so much for pointing us at that.  He does great work.  Patrick, if you can’t find something on there already designed  that floats your boat, his services tab discusses his rates.  Sounds very reasonable to me.

There is one L shaped layout in there with a Wye in the corner that has me thinking about all the prototype photos I took over here in a photo journal I’ve been building about a Wye in New Westminster, BC.  Reminds me, I have a ton more photos to post.

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Rob Chant : a man in demand...

Dear MRHers,

Quote:

Patrick, if you can’t find something on there already designed  that floats your boat, his services tab discusses his rates.  Sounds very reasonable to me.

...and if you're a FB user, and are in the right-place at the right-time,
Rob C occasionally throws out a 

"...right, I've got a few spare moments to whip up a layout design,
next FB user who provides a complete coherent set of answers to the following 'givens a druthers' list of layout-parameter questions might be lucky..."

EG https://www.facebook.com/groups/728920213839816/posts/2546877422044077

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
Lou Adler

Looking for a Designer - My Shelf Layout

I have a 21" x 11.5' shelf layout with a dozen switches and 30 cars: 14 industry spots and 16 car yard capacity.   Takes 2-1/2 hours to switch all the industries.   Digitrax DCS 51 works great as power supply and  auxiliary throttle as I use a pair of UT4 throttles for visiting crews.  I would upload photos if I could figure out how to do it.

 

Barry - I really like your scenery, particularly around the tracks.   Would appreciate knowing how you did it.

Lou

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