Mlek

The ideal technology, which will benefit from the government's efforts to stimulate their economies out of the current crisis, is likely to absorb a large number of labor from the construction industry affected by the recession, provide a long-term economic boost when completed, and provide environmentally friendly benefits along with that.

Therefore, it is not surprising to see high-speed passenger railway projects, an industry that uses labor intensively, by business, and is able to enhance the economic situation in the areas it serves, and attract passengers to use it away from cars and planes, to see it prominent in the incentive programs of many from governments.

China has the most impressive construction program in the world, and countries such as Saudi Arabia and India are continuing to develop plans to build dedicated train tracks.

Even the United States, which has long lagged behind in terms of passenger volumes carried by rail, has drawn up ambitious plans for high-speed rail corridors as part of its stimulus deal.

Europe remains the continent that uses high-speed rail extensively, and some countries within the continent have ambitious expansion plans.

Earlier this year, France accelerated a project aimed at expanding its high-speed network by another 500 kilometres.

Germany also spends heavily on its railways, although these expenditures are not earmarked for high-speed railways.

The British government has requested a report by the end of this year on potential construction of dedicated high-speed lines.

Also, Spain, which next year will overtake Japan with the largest high-speed rail network in the world, is likely to speed up its program to stimulate its economy, according to Juan Matías Arcilla, director of international projects at Renf, an operating company.

Government owned trains.

The justification given for these programmes, one of the most often claimed advantages of high-speed rail, is that they revitalize the stagnant cities they serve.

Archila points as an example to the town of Valladolid, 160 km from Madrid. Its university, as well as its economy, prospered with the opening of a high-speed railway connecting it to Madrid within an hour. The professors now want to work more in Valladolid because they can keep their homes in Madrid. Archila says: In the medium term, the investment of the current years will contribute to improving the economy over the coming years. But the investments remain dependent on the money of wealthy governments.

David Azima, director of strategy and finance at SNCF, the French government-owned rail operator frankly says that his company, along with RFF, the company that owns French rail infrastructure, is owned by the government, They make investments to boost the economy.

Azima says: As we are two government-owned companies, thus benefiting from the credit rating of France's sovereign bonds, we do not have any direct restrictions on the capital expenditure programme. We are able to play a counter-cyclical role. #2 But SNCF will not be able to play such a role indefinitely, given the effects of the recession on the company's revenue. We will not continue to do this for several years, Azima says.

Such considerations have fueled some concerns that, even when new projects are planned, they could in the future be subject to budget cuts. "If we see a more serious economic situation next year, I don't know what the consequences could be," says Johannes Ludwig, executive director of the European Railways Council. Even if the programs continue to work, there are concerns that this could be at the expense of other parts of the rail system, which do not have that luster. The biggest problem for most European railways, says Ludwig, is the development of freight networks.

But there are far more general problems in depression-affected Central and Eastern Europe. Michael Clausecker, Director General of UNEVA, says: The European Rail Supply Industry Association says the hardest-hit Central European country will struggle to secure about 15 per cent of funding for its projects, with the European Union paying the rest.

Thomas Mayer, director of the infrastructure group at the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, says that Eastern European railways, which collect their revenues in local currency, find it quite difficult to raise the volume of financing, compared to railways in the eurozone countries. Yet even the railways of Western Europe are having difficulty securing private sector financing, which can be a circumvention of budgetary problems. The French government was forced to abandon some plans to attract private financing for the construction of its high-speed railways, due to the conditions of the capital markets. Under such circumstances, not a large number of observers believe that bridging the gap in railway standards between the two halves of the continent is a possibility soon.

Moderator: I broke this up into more digestible chunks. 

Reply 0
jimfitch

Wall of text.

It would be helpful if the above post could be broken up into paragraphs.  A wall of text is not user friendly for reading.  Thankyou.

.

Jim Fitch
northern VA

Reply 0
herronp

@Jim……

Honestly?  
 

Peter

Reply 0
Mlek

This is my personal effort

This is my personal effort and fatigue, and thanks for your responses

Reply 0
Selector

I don't see how to

I don't see how to participate in this discussion without it becoming overtly, and necessarily, political.

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Investment

Between the UP and BNSF combined, they had a capital investment in 2020 of about $5.8 billion of private investments, no taxpayer dollars involved.  Of course that was all into the freight network, which fuels more economic growth than passenger service.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
filip timmerman

As a EU cityzen:

I just notice that all is concentrated in just connecting big cities to High Speed lines while public transport in rural area's is declining or not even existing.

How to get to those 'big cities' to get on a HS train seems not part of the picture. And so you need to take your car to get there wasting time in traffic jam. Parking space is poor and not free. In most cities it's a nightmare !

An experience in France with the TGV (Train Grande Vitesse) is: now you arrive much faster delayed !

The more high tech the more complicated this world becomes and only money rules.

So build your own 'empire' and play trains !

Filip

Reply 0
ctxmf74

How to get to those 'big cities' ?

  I think they need to think in terms of population density,distance to be traveled, and speed needed.High speed trains between cities, commuter rail or light rail from the suburbs and bus from the rural areas. Anyone who lives farther out than the bus line will probably just have to drive to a parking lot closer to town. Technically not too hard to design but getting folks to build it much harder :> )  Most places seem to just be stacking in more houses, and cars  with no concern for the traffic or the water supply. ....DaveB

Reply 0
caniac

Carrying human beings by

Carrying human beings by heavy and high-speed rail is a waste of resources. The tare weight of the equipment weighs more than the manifest, thus the energy expended is mostly consumed to move the tare weight. Contrast this to rail freight, which is extraordinarily fuel efficient per ton-mile.

Yes, airlines fit the inefficiency model too. But that infrastructure is already built and functions reasonably well, with first-mile/last-mile issues already resolved.

Reply 0
LensCapOn

Posts like these tend to go

Posts like these tend to go south for all the reasons already listed. While sitting back and enjoying the show from a safe distance is a thing the arguments can get bitter and it is all far removed from the purpose of the group.

 

 

 

16043393.jpg 

 

Just imagine if someone posted a video of a "Trump Train" and how the comments would go...

Reply 0
Janet N

Apples to pea gravel comparison

Not even apples to oranges.   Population density of Europe is 181/sq km vs 36/sq km of US, massive government spending for nationalized rail systems vs privately owned rail systems that might lease trackage rights to run commuter rail, and massively larger distances and population dispersion in the the US versus Europe.  

Most of the substance internal to the OP is difficult to read, and doesn't seem to support the headline as far as I can tell.  Seems to be mostly a slightly-related collection of unrelated statements.  

In a nutshell, if you live within walking distance of a passenger rail hub, if your destination is within walking distance of a passenger rail hub, and if your travel schedule fits the published transportation schedule, rail travel might be useful.  Take any one of those suppositions out of the equation, and travelling by rail is at best a sub-optimal solution.  Assuming it's even possible to get from your origin to your destination by rail.  Typically, there are better, faster, more convenient, or less costly/mile alternatives already.

Janet N.

Reply 0
dark2star

"Germany is investing"

Hi,

in most points I do agree with the statement, it reflects more or less my point of view.

What I don't really agree with is the list of countries what they're currently doing. My perception is that a lot of that current investment will not result in new tracks being built. For one thing, countries like Germany do have a huge cost overhead for various consultancies and admin costs.

More pressing, though, is the issue that Germany claims record-breaking investment sums. Looking at a couple of the proposed projects, however, this is not investment in new, but rather a repair to something that has been neglected for more than 30 years.

In High school, my history teacher said that "during the cold war, German military required a large number of diesel locos being available (in case of war it would be easier to run a diesel loco rather than repairing electric wires). For that reason, many secondary main lines were not electrified. That way, about a thousand diesel locos were instantly available but were also useful while not needed for a war. (see the DB 218 class diesel loco)." With that in mind, many of those lines should have started electrification in the 90ies. The main line near where I live just finished electrification last winter.

From that perspective, the German government plans to invest huge do seem less spectacular - in fact there are a lot of projects that have been stalled for twenty years - even if the current investment allows for one of them being built, it still is only filling a gap that should have been filled a decade ago...

Austria is about to complete the new Brenner-Base-Tunnel. Germany has been talking about upgrading the line from Munich to Kufstein (more trains to that tunnel) for ages, but they still have not completed the formal planning process.

Before I get too agitated, please do consider the news reports with a grain of salt. Better even, with a truckload of salt... Only count what's completed, not what's intended.

Even then, a big investment in Germany will not benefit the economy much, as there are very limited resources to do track projects - in Germany it is two major track building companies. That are booked solid for years to come (okay, that's a guess).

Yes, please, I'd like to see the railway network upgraded and expanded. The not-really-existing bike network, too.

Have fun and stay healthy

PS: Any news on the California High-Speed project? That one seems to be in a similar spot - much money, much talking, still not completed?

Reply 0
jimfitch

@herronp

Was it not a reasonable request?  

.

Jim Fitch
northern VA

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Infrastructure

One thing that gets overlooked in many passenger rail discussions it’s the infrastructure at origins and destinations.  The first and last miles are a huge barrier to rail transit.  Not that it couldn’t be established but it’s not currently on par with airlines and would the volumes be self sustaining.  I know many Amtrak “stations” are merely a road crossing or a mere shelter.

it becomes a “ chicken and the egg” kinda thing,  there isn’t enough traffic to warrant amenities and without amenities it doesn’t attract traffic.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
Douglas Meyer

I have been to Europe a

I have been to Europe a number of times.  I will use my last two trips (17 and 18j as examples.  Out if a total of 9 trips. In France England Germany and Switzerland (to name only destinations or origin counties).
I had a 35 min departure delay from Köln and a 55 minute arrival delay in Paris (problem was in Germany and we lost our window so kept getting slowed down).  
i had an hour and a half Delay in Lyon.  
I had a 20 minute delay leaving Paris as well as a 15 minute delay on a different trip.And a 30 minute delay pass through Paris (i suggest avoiding Paris).  I had a 20 minute delay in Switzerland in route due to maintenance.  
 

Maybe I should have said what trips were on time… The Eurostar from London to Paris.  That is it.  Every other trip was 20 or more minutes late on arrival.  And often late on departure.  Leaving Paris for Avignon my train was 20 minutes late departing.  The train had been sitting in the station for at least an hour.  The station agents wouldn’t tell me that was going to be our train until a few minutes before departure si I had to hustle my father over to the train (he was 86) instead of taking out time…. 
Also the upkeep on the TGV is not what you may believe it is.  The track in France is not very good either.  Huge difference vs Germany and England.  I do not recommend an upper level set on the TGV between Paris and Avignon.

So the reality is not what the dream would make it out to be.  And that is on systems running with govern subsidies.  I cant image how a free market for profit system would work out.  And yes I have been on a for profit train in Europe (the exist) and they are the same thing..

-Doug M

Reply 0
Benny

...

Quote:

As a EU cityzen:

Wed, 2021-06-30 22:49 —  filip timmerman

I just notice that all is concentrated in just connecting big cities to High Speed lines while public transport in rural area's is declining or not even existing.

How to get to those 'big cities' to get on a HS train seems not part of the picture. And so you need to take your car to get there wasting time in traffic jam. Parking space is poor and not free. In most cities it's a nightmare !

An experience in France with the TGV (Train Grande Vitesse) is: now you arrive much faster delayed !

The more high tech the more complicated this world becomes and only money rules.

So build your own 'empire' and play trains !

Happy model railroading,

Filip

Your European collective programming must be faulty, because you are not extolling the correct woke message to these demotic amerikan heathens... 

But you are correct.  First you need your car to get to the station, and then when you get to your destination, you need your car to get to where you want to go.

The sheer size of a place like Phoenix simply multiplies the problem exponentially.

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
Benny

...

Quote:

Thu, 2021-07-01 09:47 —  dave1905

One thing that gets overlooked in many passenger rail discussions it’s the infrastructure at origins and destinations.  The first and last miles are a huge barrier to rail transit.  Not that it couldn’t be established but it’s not currently on par with airlines and would the volumes be self sustaining.  I know many Amtrak “stations” are merely a road crossing or a mere shelter.

it becomes a “ chicken and the egg” kinda thing,  there isn’t enough traffic to warrant amenities and without amenities it doesn’t attract traffic.

Dave Husman

No matter how nice the amenities are, the problem is as you so well identified, once again that first and last mile, which in the US is more like the first and last fifty miles  No matter how fast the middle link is, if I lose that time savings due to the bus or taxi on either end, I'm not going to look favorably on that middle link. 

This is more like a "Dinosaur and the Egg" kinda thing.  While we still have the egg, the dinosaur has gone extinct but we still have some people trying to figure out how to get dinosaurs out of the eggs once again instead of simply understanding that we're a chicken world now and everybody prefers their own personal little chicken to the great dinosaur octopod that was once considered one of the public's greatest social enemies. (RE: Pullman Riots, The Octopus, Etc)

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
Bernd

Hey LensCapOn

Where do I get the popcorn? I want to sit back and watch the show too. 

MORGA (Make Our Railroads Great Again)

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
Volker

Doug M: So the reality is not

Quote:

Doug M: So the reality is not what the dream would make it out to be.  And that is on systems running with govern subsidies.  I cant image how a free market for profit system would work out.

We live with these delays. OTOH 75% of the long distance trains arrive on time which is defined by Deutsche Bahn (DB, German Railway) as within 6 minutes after the advertised arrival time. 6 minutes still allow you to get your connecting trains.

Longer delays arrise from a number of causes like technical failures on trains or ROW. We have 2 to 3 suicides on track per day also which stop a train for hours. A long distance passenger train with an accident is followed by trains on the same route every 60 minutes with commuter and freight trains in-between. On cross-linked systems delays spread fast over part of the system. Connecting trains will be delayed too. To limit the spread connections are not always held until the delayed train arrives. But the next connection usually arrives within an hour.

Regarding the last mile: I don't see it as an valid argument against HSR as you seem to have accepted the problem when flying.

HSR makes sense when the train connection is as fast or faster door to door than a flight. If one prefers more comfort even a slower travel might be accepted. HSR coast to coast doesn't make sense.
Regards, Volker

Reply 0
caniac

First mile, last mile. As

First mile, last mile. As Dave, Benny and I have pointed out, that is the Achilles heel of any high-speed rail scheme in the US, as well as for many heavy-rail commuter schemes (see Sound Transit in Washington State). And yes, Benny is right, you'd need a car at the other end of your high-speed, tax-payer subsidized, gosh-gee-whiz, expensive-toy train ride to get to a meaningful destination. There's no time savings, only incredible cost,for what would amount to a national ego trip shouldered by taxpayers, most of whom would never ride the things because the proponents will not build them anyway through Flyover Country. The problem of first mile/last mile has been for the most part solved at U.S. airports.
Reply 0
LensCapOn

"Hey LensCapOn Thu,

" Hey LensCapOn

Thu, 2021-07-01 19:02 —  Bernd

Where do I get the popcorn? I want to sit back and watch the show too. "

Pop your own. With your modeling skills it should be easy! Add something like Cumin or Chilly Powder along with the salt for enhanced flavor.

humbs-up.jpg 

Reply 0
dark2star

Reply to Caniac

Hi,

Quote:

Caniac wrote: The problem of first mile/last mile has been for the most part solved at U.S. airports.

I'd like to disagree. In the U.S. - as in most of Europe - Airports are often far outside the population centers they serve. Also, Airports are hosting gigantic parking lots with some of them raising fees beyond the cost of a typical flight. Finally, don't forget the thousands of cars clogging the streets on their way to the airport. In fact I'd say that Airports have not solved the problem, but they are making money off it.

Yes, some train stations are just as badly located as Airports are. I do remember the Amtrak station in Buffalo,N.Y. Similarly, the German railroad has constructed a number of out-of-town stations recently - Frankfurt Airport anyone?

On the other hand, many stations on the regional train networks have small parking lots, very often there is a sign with the number of the local taxi company. People will take the car to the station, but there is not the gigantic amount of cars like there is at the airport.

Depending on your destination, there are underground, suburban, tram or bus services available. But especially in rural areas the bus services are quite erratic.

My best luck was usually with taking a bicycle along. Just cycle to your next station (which is possible in many parts of Europe). You'll find some issues when changing trains with a loaded bike (your suitcase has two very large wheels!). At the destination, again, the bike is your best friend. In this light it is very questionable how the train companies dislike bicycle services...

So, in direct reply: Bicycle + train service IS the perfect solution!

(one runs on bananas, the other runs on "green" energy)

Have fun and stay healthy

Reply 0
Volker

I agree mostly. The Frankfurt

I agree mostly. The Frankfurt Airport Station (FAS) is a bad example. It is one of the possible solutions to the last mile problem. The rapid transit system (S-Bahn) connects FAS with Frankfurt Main Station and Frankfurt's hinterland as well as Mainz, Wiesbaden, Koblenz and other cities. Long distance train (ICE, IC) connections allow to avoid short distance connecting flights from e.g. Duesseldorf, Cologne, Hannover airports to Frankfurt Airport.

Colone Airport can be reached by S-Bahn and regional express trains, Duesseldorf Airport by S-Bahn, regional express trains, ICE-, and IC-trains to two different stations, Hamburg Airport by S-Bahn. Other German international airports have rail connections too.

So FAS isn't the only airport station in Germany
Regards, Volker.

Reply 0
Benny

...

Quote:

I'd like to disagree. In the U.S. - as in most of Europe - Airports are often far outside the population centers they serve. Also, Airports are hosting gigantic parking lots with some of them raising fees beyond the cost of a typical flight. Finally, don't forget the thousands of cars clogging the streets on their way to the airport. In fact I'd say that Airports have not solved the problem, but they are making money off it.

You have the same exact identical problem with high speed train systems.  People do not walk to the high speed train station hubs, they drive.

Quote:

On the other hand, many stations on the regional train networks have small parking lots, very often there is a sign with the number of the local taxi company. People will take the car to the station, but there is not the gigantic amount of cars like there is at the airport.

That same local taxi number is at every airport.  Those first and last mile arguments you brought up against airports and now the "innovative" solution you bring up with trains are identical between the two systems.  Go to any airport, there's a long line of taxis out front.

Quote:

Depending on your destination, there are underground, suburban, tram or bus services available. But especially in rural areas the bus services are quite erratic.

In the US, bus service is essentially useless unless you're close to the major hubs; it takes two hours for the bus here to cover the same distance you can cover in twenty minutes with a personal car.  

Quote:

My best luck was usually with taking a bicycle along. Just cycle to your next station (which is possible in many parts of Europe). You'll find some issues when changing trains with a loaded bike (your suitcase has two very large wheels!). At the destination, again, the bike is your best friend. In this light it is very questionable how the train companies dislike bicycle services...

Right, a bicycle is perfectly reasonable substitution for a car; it has plenty of enclosed protective space to carry the luggage and keep it secure while you make your way home and stop at stores or other places for last minute arrival errands...oh, you say it doesn't? 

Our best luck as a species across this planet has been to rely on our own personal cars for local (500 mile radius) travel and airplanes for longer distances (1000 mile).  The area between is not bridged by train service, it comes down to a careful decision between driving or flying.

The dinosaur is extinct.  The eggs are now filled with cars.

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
knoxdani

FAS

I tend to view Frankfurt Airport as the international airport for all of Europe, and just take a train from where ever I am living to there before flying somewhere really far away (I'm from New Zealand originally). Right now that means taking the ICE from Vienna to Frankfurt and staying overnight at an airport hotel before I condemn myself to the dehuminising experience that is air travel.

It's funny though from the perspective of the last mile (or in my case kilometer...) problem there is no difference for me between flying and taking the train. Here in Vienna I take the S-bahn from my local station to either the Airport or Station, it is probably 20 mins quicker to get to the station. Likewise my experience of last mile travel in the US is a bad experience in both cases, particularly if like me you don't drive.

Reply 0
Reply