joef
A trackplan from a copyrighted Kalmbach publication was posted on another thread and it set off a detailed discussion of what is and is not fair use when posting copyrighted content. Here is the original thread: https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/41988 In general, when it's a drawing such as a track plan, posting the plan in its entirety is not fair use and you must get permission. For more details, see the discussion that follows below.

Joe Fugate​
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joef

Did Kalmbach give you permission?

You just posted the trackplan from a copyrighted Kalmbach publication on the MRH forum. Did Kalmbach give you permission to do this?

If the answer is no, then we will have to unpublish this thread until you receive in writing, permission from Kalmbach to post copyrighted content from their publication on the MRH forum. Be prepared for the answer from Kalmbach to be no to something from their publications to be posted on a foreign forum unless they’re feeling especially altruistic.

Sorry, but if you read our posting guidelines, posting copyrighted material without the publishers permission is a big no-no.

Quote:

Posting copyrighted material without the permission of the copyright owner

To report copyright infringement or inappropriate content to our administrators, please email  abuse@mrhmag.com and bring it to the attention of our moderators.

Joe Fugate​
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Reply 0
ctxmf74

trackplan from a copyrighted Kalmbach publication?

Just for future info. If someone built a layout from this plan then posted a drawing of their layout could Kalmbach still block their postings? .....DaveB

Reply 0
lars_PA

I did not get permission but

I did not get permission but argue that this falls under the fair use doctrine as the image is being used as a point for discussion and criticism as we are adding new information and insights on such a plan for small room sizes.  

However, if you don’t want to take heat, please delete, although a private explanation of why would be appreciated.

Reply 0
joef

Copyright protects the expression not the idea

Copyright protects the expression, not the idea. So if the OP was to adapt the Kalmbach plan into a drawing of their own, that’s perfectly fine. But it needs to be clear the OP did not just trace the Kalmbach plan, but they actually re-executed it and it’s by their own hand. That’s fine. When we publish a layout that Kalmbach has also done a layout story on, such as Ted York’s Cajon Pass Santa Fe, we used the Kalmbach plan as reference but we also used photos we took and executed our own layout track plan. We did not just wholesale copy the Kalmbach plan.

Joe Fugate​
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joef

Is this fair use?

Let’s determine if this is fair use.

In order to guide judges in making determinations of fair use, the drafters of the Copyright Act included four factors:

  1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether it is for commercial use or for nonprofit educational purposes.
    In evaluating the purpose and character of the use, courts favor non-profit educational uses over commercial ones. However, there are instances in which commercial uses would qualify as fair use and other instances where educational uses would not meet the criteria.

    Courts also favor productive uses that yield a "transformational" result. Thus, extensive quoting from a work to produce a critical analysis of that work is favored over "slavish copying" that merely reproduces a copyrighted work.
  2. The nature of the copyrighted work.
    This factor focuses on the work itself. The legislative history states that there is a definite difference between reproducing a short news note and reproducing a full musical score because of the nature of the work. Moreover, some works, such as standardized tests and workbooks, will never qualify for fair use because by their nature they are meant to be consumed. Uses of factual works such as scientific articles are more likely to fall within fair use.
     
  3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyright-protected work as a whole.
    This factor considers how much of the copyrighted work was used in comparison to the original work as a whole. Generally, the larger the amount used, the less likely a court will find the use to be a fair use. Amount and substantiality is also a qualitative test; that is, even though one takes only a small portion of a work, it still may be too much if what is taken is the "heart of the work."
     
  4. The effect of the use on the potential market for or value of the copyright-protected work.
    Courts use this factor to determine whether the use of a work is likely to result in an economic loss that the copyright holder is otherwise entitled to receive. It looks at whether the nature of the use competes with or diminishes the potential market for the use that the owner is already exploiting or can reasonably be expected soon to exploit. Even if the immediate loss is not substantial, courts have found that, should the loss become great if the practice were to become widespread, then this factor favors the copyright holder.

Point 1: The reason for posting the track plan is to critique it, so that's educational use, so that's okay. But commercial versus non-commercial is borderline. However, you have simply lifted the track plan straight from the publication, so that's a "slavish copy," which is frowned upon. MRH is a for profit business and we sell eyeballs to advertisers. If you take a competitors content and post it on MRH, you’re lifting another publishers work thats not free and posting it for free and allowing us to profit. That’s very iffy.

Our assessment: Borderline given that MRH profits from what is simply lifted content we did not produce.

Point 2: This is a factual work, so fair use could apply. However, track plans are commodities highly valued in the model railroading community and people even pay money to have a good one drawn for them. So a track plan could be argued to be more like a test and highly consumable, which the court says is not fair use.

Our assessment: Again borderline, lifting a highly valued model railroading consumable that people pay money for to get a good track plan makes this possibly not fair use. 

Point 3: A track plan is likely the core of the article in which it appeared, thus the "heart of the article."

Our assessment: Almost certainly not fair use since you've lifted the core of the article and posted it for free.

Point 4: While Kalmbach isn't losing a lot of money in this one instance, if posting the track plan from track planning articles (the core of said articles) on the internet for free becomes widespread, this could cost Kalmbach significantly in revenue since modelers get a highly prized hobby commodity for free.

Our assessment: Almost certainly fails the "if this practice becomes widespread" test. Not fair use.


Our final assessment: If in doubt, get permission. In this case, two of the four points are iffy and two of the four points are almost certainly NOT fair use. In short, posting the core of a copyrighted track plan article on our for-profit forum where we sell eyeballs to advertisers fails the fair use test.

Get Kalmbach's permission and we will allow posting their copyrighted track plan.

Sorry for the rabbit hole on this thread, but the last thing we want is to make a fellow publisher mad and consider us borderline unethical.

Joe Fugate​
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Reply 0
lars_PA

Joe You Should Also Add

17 U.S. Code § 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work,  including such use by reproduction in  copies or  phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes  such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching  (including multiple  copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—

Add 1, 2, 3, 4 as noted above

Reply 0
ctxmf74

add #5 ?

Free advertising for Kalmbach....DaveB

Reply 0
joef

We have contacted Kalmbach

We have contacted Kalmbach to get permission, so stay tuned. If they say yes, this is for one instance and is not to be taken as a blanket agreement posting track plans from track plan articles is okay going forward.

If they say no, then there you have it. Not something we will routinely allow.

Again, sorry for the major off topic rabbit hole, and we apologize to the OP if we embarrassed you, that's not our intent. But this is a learning moment, so we're taking the due diligence route to make sure we're not on thin ice here.

If Kalmbach gives us the thumbs up, then we will move all this off-topic fair use discussion to a new thread and restore this thread to its original direction. If Kalmbach says no, then this thread will stand as an example of how you need to be careful posting copyrighted material without permission and just assuming it's always fair use.

Stay tuned ... we've hit the pause button on this discussion for the time being.

Joe Fugate​
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lars_PA

The purpose and character of

Quote:

The purpose and character of the use, including whether it is for commercial use or for nonprofit educational purposes.
In evaluating the purpose and character of the use, courts favor non-profit educational uses over commercial ones. However, there are instances in which commercial uses would qualify as fair use and other instances where educational uses would not meet the criteria.

Courts also favor productive uses that yield a "transformational" result. Thus, extensive quoting from a work to produce a critical analysis of that work is favored over "slavish copying" that merely reproduces a copyrighted work

My only criticism here is the narrowness of scope you provided in your rationale.  Yes it is a copy (I guess I could draw my own to make it less slavish).  On the transformational side of things, the point is to have a discussion and criticism of the concept, adding new insight and understanding, of which it would be less effective without an example.  The transformational side of things should be considered in addition to the profit / non-profit side of things and is one of the reasons why parody can be considered fair use, even if you profit of it.

Quote:

The nature of the copyrighted work.
This factor focuses on the work itself. The legislative history states that there is a definite difference between reproducing a short news note and reproducing a full musical score because of the nature of the work. Moreover, some works, such as standardized tests and workbooks, will never qualify for fair use because by their nature they are meant to be consumed. Uses of factual works such as scientific articles are more likely to fall within fair use.
 

The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyright-protected work as a whole.
This factor considers how much of the copyrighted work was used in comparison to the original work as a whole. Generally, the larger the amount used, the less likely a court will find the use to be a fair use. Amount and substantiality is also a qualitative test; that is, even though one takes only a small portion of a work, it still may be too much if what is taken is the "heart of the work."

More question than comment here, but what do we define as the work?  Do we define it as one article or the whole publication.  For the former, it could lend itself more to the "heart of the work".  For the latter, it is one of eight(?) track plans in the entire publication and consumes half of a page of the the 70+ pages of articles?  And to add, there is no direct mention of it on the cover (although other articles are mentioned), which may suggest that the publisher is admitting that it is not the heart of the broader work.

Regarding point 4, while this could be a two-way street (the post is directing eyes to advertisers and directing to eyes to a for-sale publication), I understand the slippery slope side of things from your end.

Reply 0
lars_PA

Again, sorry for the major

Quote:

Again, sorry for the major off topic rabbit hole, and we apologize to the OP if we embarrassed you, that's not our intent. But this is a learning moment, so we're taking the due diligence route to make sure we're not on thin ice here.

No offense taken.  I very much thought about copyright when throwing this out there and am very willing to discuss the sides of fair use.  Please do use this as a learning experience of fair use. 

Reply 0
joef

@lars_PA Fair use must be clear or it's not fair use

Yes, we can see your points as well. The problem with fair use is it must be clearly fair use otherwise it's not fair use. This situation where you lift the heart of a track planning article, the track plan, a highly valued commodity in this hobby, and post it for free on a forum that depends on gaining eyeballs to make money ... well you've just slapped some highly prized foreign honey on the MRH wall and it will draw eager bees. So it's borderline at best. In borderline cases, getting permission is always advised. Sorry to derail your thread, and we apologize if we embarrassed you. If Kalmbach says yes, then you're in the clear and we will move all the fair use discussion to a new thread and press the play button again on your critique.

Joe Fugate​
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Chris Palermo patentwriter

...

The courts’ references to transformation mean that for fair use, the copy must be a transformation of the original work, not something else. For graphical works like track plans, discussion about them is irrelevant, the question is whether the original image has been changed and whether the publication of the changed work has social benefit. The main example is an internet search engine that crawls to a 1024x768 pixel original image, then produces a 300x100 thumbnail for use in search results. The thumbnail is a transformation of the work. Discussing it isn’t.

A track plan is capable of copyright registration as a discrete and complete graphical work of 2D art and can be considered the “work”. The original publication in a book does not affect this.

Thus, the analysis here is straightforward: the nature of the work is artistic; the entire work has been copied; the publication is in a commercial context; the publication could cause consumers not to purchase a copy via Kalmbach’s book or the track plan library behind its paywall. Therefore, not fair use.

A final factor to be aware of is confirmation bias. The person who wants to make or distribute the copy usually resolves the four fair use factors in their own favor, applying rationalizations along the way. You have to let go and view the factors objectively, and consider interpretations that disfavor you. Large content owners contract with licensing firms to use automated systems in place to crawl the web and find infringing uses, and claims usually cost $1000 to $10,000 to resolve, so caution makes sense.

At Large North America Director, 2024-2027 - National Model Railroad Association, Inc.
Reply 0
Douglas Meyer

The point of the OP seams to

The point of the OP seams to be a discussion of the shape of the benchwork.  Does it need yo be from this spicific layout design or was the Original Poster more interested in a general discussion on the basic shape of the layout?  If it was generic then a quick sketch of the basic shape should be relatively easy to creat and the post and thus avoid the fair use argument 

Personally I would love to see discussions about the basic shape of layouts

-Doug M

Reply 0
Chris Palermo patentwriter

...

Doug M is correct. The issue could be avoided by making an original sketch loosely based on the track plan or its underlying concept, and posting that.

At Large North America Director, 2024-2027 - National Model Railroad Association, Inc.
Reply 0
kleaverjr

How much be different from original to avoid Infringement?

So how much of the track plan be different for it not to be considered Copyright Infringement?  Even a hand sketch, using the criteria described above, would say any significant "copy", even if hand drawn, violates the Copyright of the Track plan, because it's still duplicating it, though maybe not as neat and sharp as the original.  

I will defer to the attorney on this, though I think I could make a compelling case in front of a Federal Court how this was "Fair Use" I can appreciate how Joe does not want MRH to have to deal with such a headache and is erring on the side of caution.  

Ken L>  

Reply 0
barr_ceo

How much different ...

Rule of thumb..... if you have to ask, it's not enough different.

Reply 0
joef

It's the expression of the idea, not the idea that's protected

Quote:

So how much of the track plan be different for it not to be considered Copyright Infringement? Even a hand sketch, using the criteria described above, would say any significant "copy", even if hand drawn, violates the Copyright of the Track plan, because it's still duplicating it, though maybe not as neat and sharp as the original.

Even if the OP hand draws the original track plan and it's clear the drawing is now in his own hand but it's schematically identical to the original plan complete with all the structures and town names, it's good. Copyright does not protect the track plan ideas, it only protects the drawing as executed by the artist.

Patents protect ideas, and that's not what we're talking about here. Copyright only protects the expression, which for drawings means you can re-execute the drawing and as long as it's clear you did the drawing by your own hand or on a computer and used a different look (it's an adaption not a copy), then you're fine.

Joe Fugate​
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Reply 0
p51

Fair use isn't what most think it means

Fair use, in regard to copyright law, is probably one of the most misunderstood legal concepts out there, as far as Internet use is regarded.For many people, it is a overreaching label that, if they are to be honest with themselves, simply means that they want to use someone else's work online without permission. 

I have a friend who is a copyright attorney and for a long time I woukd see drawings I did for a seller of WW2 stuff pop up in re-enactor newsletter and websites. When I'd write or email reminding them they had no permission to use my work, every single time they would incorrectly cite fair use..

Then, they'd get a call or letter from my friend on his letterhead. 

When posting online, just ask yourself this; how would you really feel if someone else posted your hard work without credit and attitude that they felt it was okay because they thought it was?

Not very happy, I'd bet.

I'm glad the reality has been posted in this thread as it's a lesson that constantly needs to be put out there.

Reply 0
kleaverjr

Not to get into the weeds...

...and this is more of a rhetorical question that I DO NOT WANT answered here, as this is a Model RR Forum, not a Legal Discussion group, but I do wonder, what is the actual Case Law on this, if any.  I don't recall any SCOTUS decision on point on this issue, particularly with the internet and discussion forums.

FWIW, 

Ken L

Reply 0
Chihuahua-Pacifico Chepe

To the point

I really appreciate Joe Fugate's mature approach and rational decision making on this thread put forth by the OP. Not sure i would've handled it with the same grace and kindness. P51 essentially nailed most everyone's premise that they could/can just lift something off the 'net and call it "fair use" since they basically felt it wasn't something intended to make a profit off of. That still doesn't make the initial process by any individual in a case like this valid, the answer has been repeatedly a resounding no. I know I've felt like doing the very same thing but have had to stop and remind myself how inappropriate it is no matter how good the intentions were.

 

 

"Chepe" Lopez-Mateos

Reply 0
Greenstar

Fair Use

You could say then that Disney was in violation of these same copyright laws when they wrote The Lion King in 1994, as it has Several similarities to the 1965 anime series, Kimba the White Lion, including the villains being lions with some sort of scar or claw mark on one of their eyes, their henchmen being Hyenas.  The main characters having a bird and some sort of Primate for an advisor of sorts, even the dead parents appearing in the sky and the stampede scenes.  It would look like some of the points here support the argument that Disney did in fact violate copyright laws.  So reading this has been incredible for gaining some insight on the rules of copyrights.   

Officially checked by General Greenstar, leader of the White Lion Railways, and the White Lion himself.

Reply 0
joef

Copyright does not protect the ideas

Quote:

You could say then that Disney was in violation of these same copyright laws when they wrote The Lion King in 1994, as it has several similarities to the 1965 anime series, Kimba the White Lion ...

Just remember, copyright does not protect the ideas, only way things are expressed.

Copyright laws protect fictional characters provided the characters are sufficiently unique and distinctive. Legal protection for fictional characters is separate from the legal protection extended to the underlying creative work like the book or movie. Some characters also are well known enough to receive trademark protection too. LION KING CONTROVERSY Tezuka's family and Tezuka Productions (producers of Kimba the White Lion) have never pursued litigation against The Walt Disney Company for copyright infringement. Yoshihiro Shimizu, the company's director, stated that many of their employees saw resemblances between the two properties, but "any similarities in their plots are based in the facts of nature and therefore are two different works". In his book, Makoto Tezuka states that the controversy started in America and people inflated the issue because of their opposition to Disney's business practices. He also states that he refuses to participate in this denunciation of Disney and that he does not want to see his father's works being turned into a weapon for those people. Tezuka acknowledges that Kimba and The Lion King are two different stories with different themes, but if the the Lion King was about a white lion who spoke with humans, then he would not be able to pardon the similarities. So as long as the litigant who owns the Kimba White Lion property is okay with The Lion King, then the whole issue is moot. I suspect one reason is Tezuka freely admits Disney’s works influenced them, so in a sense Disney may have been influenced by work they influenced!

Joe Fugate​
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YoHo

The big issue with copyright

The big issue with copyright online really is around sites like youtube and overaggressive (and often hilariously inaccurate) DMCA take down notices on incidental use of music or video. Use that is straightforward fair use. 

And the issue is more one of bullying.

 

This thread is cut and dry. It's a work of art with a copyright on it. You don't have the right to repost that unless you've explicitly been given that right.

 

NOW, you could probably have cropped out the blob alone and posted that image. In that case you fundamentally altered the image. 

 

Using the image for review or Criticism could be valid, but I wouldn't want to play that game on a "competitor's site. It's also odd, because you wouldn't be criticizing the work of art, you would be criticizing the design expressed. So you don't get fair use of the image.

 

Reply 0
joef

Okay, it's official - we now have permission

Here's the letter we just received from MR Editor Carl Swanson at Kalmbach.

Quote:

Please consider this my go-ahead to use the track plan with credit to MR and “used by permission” slapped on it as a warning to others to ask before they post.

You are right, of course. Intellectual property requires the permission of the copyright holder before it can be posted on the internet in any form. We have to do the same thing for any pictures or articles that are not in public domain or that we don’t already have the rights to for internet use.

Thank you for the great job you do watching over your site – as my boss David Popp noted, you always give us a fair shake and we certainly appreciate it.

Carl Swanson

Joe Fugate​
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