herronp

.......when you are doing your bench work?  I understand how to determine the height-distance thing but getting my grades to be a CONSISTENT say 3% is very hit or miss when it comes to curved grades.  A straight grade is easy but when the tracks curve it gets hard.  Looking for tips.  I’m using 1/2” plywood with a layer of 1/2” Homasote on top as my roadbed which is about 4” wide for single track.  I have an open grid base and use 1 x 3 risers with 1 x 2 cross pieces (a tee shape) and use temporary clamps so I can adjust each riser up and down as needed to maintain the grade.  I use a digital level set to % to measure the grade.  I find this method very inexact and time consuming and extremely difficult to end up with a consistent grade. I do vary the start and finish % of the grade for a smooth transition.  There has to be an easier way but damned if I can think of it!

Thanking you in advance for any insight.............

Peter

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Levels

I was going to suggest a digital level, but if you don't like that, a old school spirit level. get a 24" level and then use drill bits taped to the level on the downhill end to get a consistent rise.  If your curves are tight, use a smaller diameter drill bit and move the drill bit closer to the uphill end, so the level is effectively shorter.

Set the level on the base grade and put the drill bit under the downhill end, you can move it back and forth, closer or farther from the uphill end to "fine tune" the level to the desired grade.  Tape the drill bit at that spot.  Then just move the level up the grade leveling as you go, you can even go in "half stations", half the length of the level to check it frequently and measure the grade on a shorter cord on the curves.

Another option is instead of using a "cleat" on top of the riser, use a small angle 3/4x3/4 or 1x1 inch, screwed into the riser on the downhill side just below the top and then a screw up into the roadbed to just pull it down to where it touches the top of the riser.  The advantage there is that the angle iron will bend to match the slope of the roadbed and the roadbed will rest on the top of the riser at an angle.  With a cleat, you have a big flat surface and if you tighten the screws through the cleat, it tries to pull the roadbed flat to the top of the riser and cleat, trying to put a flat spot in the grade.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
ctxmf74

Grade setting

If your benchwork grid  is level you can use it as a base and measure up to set the grade at each cross member. Figure out how high the bottom of the hill should be above the grid, then the top of hill , then pro rate the grade at the various risers. You can get the length of curve for pro rating by measuring along the roadbed with a cloth tape. or tack a thin batten along the center line and mark where it crosses the risers then untack it and measure the distances to calculate the height for each riser. Once the risers are installed at the calculated heights lay the roadbed on top and sight it for fairness and check the grade by seeing how much rise you get in the length of a 24 inch or whatever level. The grade should be constant if you calc'ed it right.  The transition grades into and out of the hill grade should be extended half way onto the grade in and the grade out not just put all in the intended grade length as that would steepen the grade beyond it's intended slope. Vertical transition grades( vertical curves) can be set with a batten much like we set them as curve easements on horizontal curves.The bottom line is the whole thing should pass the eyeball test no matter how you arrive at the measurements......DaveB

Reply 0
Selector

You can get apps to show the

You can get apps to show the gradient and a spirit level 'bubble' digitally as an app.  For a smart phone.

I would fashion the easements carefully at each end, and then use a 3' or 4' builders framing level and let the edge of the level be your guide for consistency.  If you want a grade with a specific rise/run, simply do the math.  Measure the run between the nether elevation and the higher, and you know how high you need to go.  Make sure units are the same, and do the simple division.  Then, measure it out on the benchwork and fashion it using the sub-roadbed of your choice.  One half inch ply, exterior grade to keep costs down, should make nice cookie cutter sub-roadbed, and you can bend the ends sufficiently easily, anchored firmly at the very ends, to fashion the easements.  I would support the length of the grade-proper every 12" with a 1X2 riser.

Reply 0
peter-f

I used a Meter-long stick

and propped up the end by 2cm for a 2% grade, 3cm for the 3%.  A spirit level on top would indicate "level" withe the prop on the downhill end.

Around curves, don't worry too much.. the resistance of a train increases on curves, so you really want to decrease the slope a bit there!

And, yes, same construction technique as yours (sans homosote) ... it took me hours. I wasn't satisfied for days.  And I later had one that needed rework.. ugh, the effort to revisit that - all for 1/4" clearance!

 

I documented the benchwork before tracks with index cards marked with radii and slopes... now a pile of photos for reference. Add a turnout? Oh, this big!

- regards

Peter

Reply 0
peter-f

A longtime Model Railroading friend makes last departure

I visited my LHS the other day to hear the owner had died after fighting Covid for about a month.  Patrons were encouraged for a while, as Jack seemed to be starting a  recovery, then, not.

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/mycentraljersey/obituary.aspx?n=john-g-de-rosset&pid=197656117&fhid=17119

May the family be consoled.

- regards

Peter

Reply 0
jimfitch

What Dave said.  Build your

What Dave said.  Build your benchork level.  Then you can measure the distance between cross members and therefore risers.  You calculate the grade and set each riser higher or lower and that controls the grade.

For vertical easements, I just go in incremental grade changes between risers until I reach the max grade and then maintain it.

Also as Dave mentions, check by eyeball.  I also take a nice straight board and lay it on the subriadbed do check for irregularities like dips or humps and even them out.

.

Jim Fitch
northern VA

Reply 0
herronp

Peter F, are you sure you’re not working on..........

...........my layout when I’m not home, LOL?

I  just spent 3 days to gain about an inch clearance in a hidden over under track arrangement raising the lower track (beginning of grade) to reduce the grade from 4.2 to 2.8!  It meant cutting out the upper track’s plywood and Homasote and adding a piece of .080 styrene over the 4” gap.  As O scale locomotives are pretty heavy I added thin oak stringers to the top of the styrene on either side of the track to keep it from sagging.  I feel your pain.

Building a O scale layout in a 21’ x 20’ space required steepish 3% grades and tight radii curves to make it work.  All my 36” curves are hidden with 42” minimum on the visible.  Except for the area described above, everything else worked fine.  I use small steam and geared locomotives and all but 1 2-6-6-2 tank engine handled the 36” radius without problems.  After hours of trial and error, filing and insulating the tank engine works fine but that’s a story for another day!

Thanks for the tips everyone. 
 

Peter

Reply 0
sunacres

Check your spirit level...

This problem is way too familiar to me. I generally use Dave Husman's method with spacers at one end of a 24" level, but when constructing a junction with diverging grades along a 20 foot wall that never came to the calculated end points, I finally did the thing I should have done before I started: check that the level is reasonably accurate! 

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/middle-school-model-railroad-a-tale-of-two-tools-12214750

Jeff Allen

Jeff Allen

My MRH Blog Index

Reply 0
herronp

@Jeff Allen, I got you beat, I think..........

............. as I had done my initial grade work with the digital level and all seemed well at a grade of 2 which is a lot less than I thought they would be. The next day when I looked at my work it seemed very steep. I did a rough length height calculation and it appeared to exceed 5%!  I double checked my level and it said 2 and I noticed a little 0 at the right top of the 2. When I looked at the level I saw the top button was for degrees or percentage!  Idiot that I am I thought they were the same. When I clicked it to percent the grade jumped up to just over 5!  I thought it looked too steep. As with you I learned my lesson. LOL. 

Peter

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herronp

@Petet F

551529E.jpeg 

728FF5C.jpeg 

Reply 0
peter-f

Peter... re the photos: Ouch!

Mine was resolved with a girder bridge... no subroadbed there... but then I ran (or attempted!) a crane underneath.  Still no space for multilevel passenger coaches.

- regards

Peter

Reply 0
eastwind

Getting the layout gridwork

Getting the layout gridwork top level everywhere will take a lot of time-consuming tweaking and a lot of measurements with your level. But if you skip that step, you pay for it when laying track with more tweaking to try to get the grade perfect. There's no free lunch.

Michael Rose, and perhaps others, set their risers directly on top of the grid, with a separate piece along side that is used to hold it in place, attaching to the side of the riser and the side of the grid. This allows them to make a riser whose height exactly matches the rise they want from the grid. Having the height measuring points directly over the grid instead of to the side makes it easier to measure everything out ahead of time, either in a CAD program, a railway planning program, or just on paper. All you have to do is make sure the bottom of the riser is cut relatively perfectly to 90 degrees and the riser top is attached at 90 degrees, and this can be done in your carpentry area. If the riser is perfect there won't be any out-of-level side-to-side issues.

Making the riser as wide as the roadbed uses more material for risers, but it eliminates the need for a top crosspiece, and makes construction simpler and easier to keep the top level side-to-side. It eliminates a source of error or variance in the construction.

 

You can call me EW. Here's my blog index

Reply 0
f134kilmil

Consistent Grades

I use Woodland Scenics risers glued to styrofoam insulation. Ensure the base for the styrofoam is level & the risers will do the work for you, including curves.

I use the risers rather than the complete grade set as it's much cheaper and less waste. Adding another layer of styrofoam at the upper end of the riser to continue the grade works well. Using a long level (or even a long measuring stick) over the joint ensures continuity.

Steve Miller

Fredericksburg, VA

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jimcubie1

Use a planning program at like 3pi

Using a program like 3pi let’s you plan your grades perfectly and consistently.  Then using a reference point you can lay those points out exactly where you planned them.  If you I want a grade support at X +12 it will tell you at 12 exactly how far above your reference grade the track should be.  (Assume X is the reference point.). Actually you establish reference points and triangulate to where ever you want. There is a learning curve, but I have never regretted taking the time to learn it.

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f134kilmil

Consistent Grades

I use Woodland Scenics risers. Ensure your base is level & thwe risers will do the work for you, including curves.

The risers are cheaper than a complete grade set & there's less waste if you don't use the full package.

My base is 2-inch styrofoam insulation & 3% grades. Another piece of the 2-inch foam works at the end to continue the grade with the risers.

Steve Miller

Fredericksburg, VA

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