Hi Jim!

A General, eh?

Boy... sounds like you're continuing to march back in time!

The below is simply for your information in case you don't know...

Bachmann offers a completely retooled version of their "Jupiter" type 4-4-0. I have five of them, 4 with factory installed "Sound Value" DCC/Sound, and one "DCC ready" (conventional, but with a pin connector for a decoder).

Good running examples of these little engines run superb. All of mine are "tie counters".  Since this model has been released, there are several road names/liveries that have been offered, both DCC/Sound and conventional DC. If you'd like to take a look at what they look like, here's a link to Bachmann's current offerings of their retooled 4-4-0:

https://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=258_276_978&zenid=u38g7j0r5sn6natnsmmgcdaj87

Of course, the "street prices" are less than the MSRP at Bachmann's page. To give you an idea of what's available on the Bay, here's a search link for Bachmann 4-4-0's. (NOTE: Pay attention to the listings because the "old" 4-4-0's and the "New Tooling" 4-4-0's are two totally different engines! The older ones are oversized, cheaper made, have tender drives, and do not run anywhere near as good as the "New Tooled" 4-4-0.)

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2499334.m570.l1313&_nkw=Bachmann+4-4-0&_sacat=19128

I mention the "New Tooling" Bachmann 4-4-0 because it is quite superior to the General in terms of scale size, appearance, and performance from the git-go AND they can be obtained with DCC/Sound ALREADY INSTALLED. (Huge time saver and hassle factor reduction.)

Enjoy your little foray into the past!

Andre

Are the new bachmann 4-4-0s ...

... any better than their spectrum On30 models?  

The drive lines on all of their geared locos I own (a shay and 2 climaxes) all failed after about 10 minutes of operation and the Porter, Forney and Mogul are not great either.  I got the re-gearing kits but it looks like a job and I’m not sure I’m even going to bother with On30.  I might sell the works including a bunch of ME Code 70 flex and turnouts if any one is looking. 
 

Bachmann New Tooling 4-4-0

I've had mine several years, now, and have operated most of them for many hours. Still slow n' smooth with no issues. Admittedly, I haven't pulled them out and piddled with them on my diesel era layout in a few months.

My other TOC19 friends that have them are getting good service out of them, too.

Andre

4-4-0

I have a couple Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0's, and AH 4-4-0 and several of the earlier Bachman/Pocher "old time" 4-4-0's and a Mantua 4-4-0, but I can use all of them on my layout.  I think it would be cool to try running an "All American" operating session where all the road power is 4-4-0's.

Normally there are a few

Normally there are a few Mantua Generals up for bid or sale on eBay. In fact, several are listed there now. Although they all look similar, there were some considerable differences in the way that these models were made and ran during the more than fifty years in which they were produced. The earliest batches from the 1950s through the 1960s were made with very sturdy frames and mechanisms and had well-formed open spoke drivers, but oversized flanges on all the wheels. Sold as kits under the Mantua label, they could be made to run well if assembled and broken-in with care, although their open frame motors tended to get very hot under continuous running. In the decade that followed, Mantua sold off its model train line under the Tyco brand which moved production to Hong Kong. As with other Tyco models, the mechanisms of the Generals were simplified and some plastic parts substituted for metal, probably as an economy measure. Though drivers were now fitted with smaller flanges, they were cast as solid rounds with no space between links. Again, these models could be made to run well enough with work, by they were often rough when first bought. The next stage came when the line reverted back to a reorganized Mantua firm in 1977, and this led to some minor retooling in the 1990s, such as the removal of the sign boards on the boiler. More significantly, the old open frame motors were replaced with better can motors in the mid ‘90s. As Generals of this final era were sold ready to run (in the red boxes), there was improved quality control. So models of this period into the era of Model Power's takeover of Mantua (2001 to 2014) are generally the best runners. An important caveat, however, is that gears and other mechanical parts are not always interchangeable between all these eras

What made Generals unique is that they represented locomotives of the 1850-1860 era. By contrast the retooled Bachmann 4-4-0 are based on a much later, 1872 V&T prototype (despite being featured in 1869 liveries). This latter was also the inspiration for the Rivarossi 4-4-0s (which was sized closer to 00 scale). Of course, Mantua copied a much changed post Civil War restoration of the General, not the original 1855 Rodgers version. Still, these are hardly interchangeable models, particularly with regard to their size and over-all outline. Anyone interested in reconditioning a General into a great running model (including DCC and sound installation) should check the files of the groups.io Civil War Rail Roads forum and especially the articles there and elsewhere online by the late Al Mueller who was a master at rebuilding these engines.

Frank

Thanks for the great info!

Guys,

Thank you for you really good replies to my post. My new layout will be able to be operated with one locomotive -- if I am operating alone. It will need no more than four locos if I have guest operators.

So, I will be able to pick-a-year to operate due to low need of locomotives. This will allow me to prepare locos anywhere from 1880 to 1930 which brackets my times of interest.

Thanks again y'all,

Jim Six

Cary 4-4-0 boiler conversion

Jim,

Another variation on the theme was once available from Cary Locomotive Works. They produced a boiler and detail kit to modernize the older Tyco/Mantua General loco. There was also a detail kit available. Bowser bought the Cary line and produced these for a few years but they no longer produce any steam locos.

Eric

1880 to 1930...

That would also give the ability to represent VERY different looking eras. The rolling stock and the engines will all be quite different over the decades and the variety could prove to be a positive in regards to long term modeling/layout satisfaction

As for car evolution in the North American rail scene, I read the answer quoted below on one of the FB TOC19 groups I frequent. It was an answer to a new TOC19 fan's question about the average length was of boxcars was from the 1860's to the 1890's:

"Add 5 feet for every decade- but don't treat it as law. 1860s 25 feet, 1870s 30 feet, 1880s 34 feet, 1890s 36 feet."

As for the 1900s, that's when the 40' cars began to make inroads, but 36' cars were still in heavy use. Cars shorter than 36' were being replaced through attrition/etc.

Have fun, Jim!

Andre

...

There are two Cary Pittsburg kits, one to fit the Mantua-Tyco frame and one to fit the AHM frame.

In either event, they are somewhat superseded by the very nice Bachmann/Spectrum Modern 4-4-0 Richmond.

Some waddling may be present.

Thanks guys for your messages

Thanks guys for your messages and info then contained. 

I think that I will build a couple of locomotives targeting the 1880s. I will also build a caboose for that time. This will allow me to operate in the 1880s and see just how much I like it.

CCC&StL is a possible candidate. It can easily be modeled from the Tyco 4-6-0 that I already have.

Another candidate might be LS&MS 107, but I am not sure what I's use for the boiler. It is different from the Tyco 4-6-0. Any ideas folks? 

Little engines used to sell

Gorgeous 4-4-0 castings in 1 1/2” scale!

Jim, If your focus is  the

Jim,

If your focus is  the period after 1880, you might take a look at the late Harold Minkwitz's web site on combining a Roundhouse chassis with an IHC (or AHM) Rivarossi superstructure at: http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/1905/4-4-0_merge/ . Harold used a 4-4-0 chassis, but the bash would work equally well with a 2-6-0. Check it soon, as I believe the site will soon be taken down. John Ott has done some similar work to merge these models. See his site at http://www.ottgalleries.com/rivarossi.html . Both of them were trying to create locomotives built a bit earlier than you, but different details wold produce later versions. There's also a lot of useful modeling information for turn of the 19th century railroading on the groups.io site Early Rail, a site you might want to follow at  https://groups.io/g/EarlyRail/.

It's amazing how over the years there has never been an HO model--kit or ready-to-run--of a classic 1880s 4-4-0, despite the fact that these locomotives dominated North American railroading then and well into the next century.  Yet, again and again people have shown enough interest to try to make something suitable. The number of second-hand Generals and Rivarossi 4-4-0s still sold long after the end of their production era for parts alone to support such projects ought to demonstrate the interest in such models. There must be some hidden reason manufacturers have so consistently shunned them!

Frank
 

....

Jim, the rather archaic Aristocraft 4-6-0 would perhaps give you the chassis you're after.  Playing in this field, though, you'd have to be your own machinist to make it all work.

Mike, Frank, and Benny

Thanks guys for your replies. My modeling interest is really between 1890 and 1930. This is 40 years of railroading to be modeled. I will start work on the new layout this coming summer and while not really small, it will be simpler that what I have done in the past. I want to be able to operate by myself with one or two locomotives. This means that I can pick a year between 1890 and 1930 and put appropriate locomotives and rolling stock on the layout for operation.

With such limited needs for operation, I should be able to pick most any year in my 40-year time frame and have enough locos and rolling stock. My operation interest is simply to operate a local freight to switch the businesses in my one-town layout. Through freights will simply be to create interference and complicate operation of my local freight. Same for any passenger trains.

Jim

...

Jim,

Then you might use 1-2 trains for each era/ten year bracket, one to bring the freight in, one to bring new freight in and old freight out, and then the first engine to come back and take all the fright out to swap between eras. You could make a gradual swap of horses and buggies for motor cars between sessions depending on era.  Perhaps a couple buildings are also in duplicate.  And the most important part is the whole thing is just "Anywhere" enough that with these changes it simply feels like "Home" for whatever is running at the time.

You have a peculiar case of "Too many trains, not enough time."  I don't think any of us ever win that race, best have fun running whatever feels right at the time. 

General

Bachmann at one time had the General in new tooling. DCC onboard with motor in the boiler. Not sure it had sound. Do a search.

I have belonged to the Bachmann forums for sometime.

I have a couple old time tender drive locos and cars including the 1870 UP photographer's car with yellow paper siding long out of production. A real classic.

Company bought years ago but they no longer make the car. Bitter Creek.

Rich

If you're still interested.....

Jim:

Just saw your post, had a brain flash, and pulled this out of a box where it's been sitting since the early 70's. Did a very cursory lube, and it does run. The only two problems I see are that it takes quite a bit of throttle to get it going (I suspect the motor magnet has weakened over time), and the whistle assembly is missing. It's a Mantua, with see-through driver spokes and an open-frame motor. Needs some TLC/cleaning/etc, but basically sound.

I remember getting this as a gift back in the mid-60's. I had asked my Dad for, oh, something like a streamlined Hudson. He took one look at the prices for that sort of stuff and I wound up with this instead. I appreciated the thought and effort, but I never did like or even run the thing very much. I have no emotional or sentimental attachment to it.

So, if you (or anyone else, for that matter) is interested, please let me know. Since it was a gift to me, it's not for sale or trade, rather it's a "pay it forward" arrangement. The terms are that I'll pay for the shipping and you make whatever donation you feel appropriate to a charity of your choice. My personal two "pet" charities are the Wounded Warrior Project and the D.A.V., but you do what you think best.

-Charlie B

Motor for Mantua General

Before Mantua was sold out, I bought the MC-94 upgrade motor with mounting bracket from Mantua. The OP might search ebay and the Internet for the motor. Fortunately I still have the catalogs and parts list.

Rich

Benny

Benny,

Don't forget that during the 1890-1910 period that I am "currently" fascinated with that there were many local passenger trains! They were pulled with 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 locomotives.

LOL     

Jim

Rich

Can you tell me more about that MC-94 repower kit? Any photos or diagrams?

Jim

Bachmann 4-4-0, 4-6-0boiler

The Bachmann boiler might work for the Tyco 4-6-0.  The Tyco/Mantua boiler is almost S scale.  I wonder if it wasn't actually designed as OO instead of HO.

Dave

No doubt, the Tyco 4-6-0 boiler is a bit large!   

Jim

Roll your own

..... literally.

If you are up for a challenge, here's how to make your own boiler out of styrene.

Trying to reach Jim Six

Jim, I got your email and tried responding via this forum, and requested a copy of my response also be sent to me. I never received that copy, so I assumed you never got my response either. So I tried responding directly to your email and it bounced back after a couple of hours. Could you please check to see if your email address for your account here is,correct?