railandsail

Like many folks I am including a Walther's Medusa Cement structure on my layout. Originally it was just going to sit over in one of the back corners of the layout behind the brick factory. It was going to be serviced by a single siding track branching off the outer of two mainline tracks that circle the perimeter of the room. I had found a way to connect the other end of that cement siding back into another track that is also connected to that same mainline track, ...albeit in a more indirect manner.
(mainline tracks hi-lited, forget those other circular lines,..something else)

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Then my new idea for a dedicated switcher engine, (and storage track), to handle cars for this cement structure

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(By the way, I have other plans to utilize this same switcher engine)

Brian

1) First Ideas: Help Designing Dbl-Deck Plan in Dedicated Shed
2) Next Idea: Another Interesting Trackplan to Consider
3) Final Plan: Trans-Continental Connector

Reply 0
railandsail

Correct me if I'm wrong, but

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that full cement cars could be delivered to this plant from either end of where the cement siding connects with the mainline,...and from trains running in either direction on that mainline. Of course the use of that end of the siding that includes the extra turnouts would likely require the use of some sort of aux switcher??

 

 

Reply 1
ctxmf74

The switch engine?

 I doubt a cement silo would want to pay to keep a dedicated switch engine. They'd probably just have the railroad drop off and pick up cars on a schedule. If they needed to move a car between service they might use a winch and cable or shove it with a loader or tractor? ......DaveB

Reply 2
railandsail

Other Siding

BTW this hi-lited siding runs all the way down to the other end of the layout, then curves broadly around into the center peninsula. (Those other 2 mainline tracks proceed up a ramp onto the stone viaduct/bridge)

mage(86).png 

This siding along the wall is one of 2 major tracks feeding the industries on the central peninsula.

 

 

Reply 1
railandsail

@DaveB

I thought about that,...what if the cement plant owners also owned the brick factory,...and they could make use of that switcher as well. (cement and bricks?)
 

I'm also thinking that switcher could be utilized to push coal cars, and gather up coke cars, down at the other end of that long siding?

Are there, or could there be some sort of joint ownership/ partnerships for switchers?

 

 

Reply 1
Greg Baker Mountaingoatgreg

Switching Operations

Unless the Cement Company is a common carrier they could not leave their own property or switch any businesses other then their own. They also have to have protection from entering the common system, usually a derail or switch locked that they do not have the keys. 

If the brick plant, cement plant, coal and coke ovens were all on inter connected track and you did not have to get on another railroads track, then you could justify a dedicated switcher. Many large industries have used second hand locomotives for this type of work, while most modern operation opt for a Trackmobile. 

As for spotting the cement cars, most places I have worked have a grade. You spot at one end and either using gravity, cables, or equipment they move the cars to where they unload. They then unload the car and move it to the empties area. A crew would spot the cars at the same spot and pickup the empty at the same spot. These does not mean that an arrangement like this would not work, they just would have to push or pull through the building to spot the loads. 

Another option for the stub track, some plants also take in other materials such as limestone or Fly Ash. This track could be served by another auger or method to unload these cars and add a bit of a challenge to the job assigned to spotting cars. 

Reply 1
junkfish

Trackmobile

A plant local to me uses a trackmobile to switch the cement cars.  The Youngstown Belt handles the aggregates delivered to the facilities. 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/City+Concrete/@41.1215081,-80.678623,434m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8833e59c8b53c84f:0x510534a9990e8632!8m2!3d41.1228066!4d-80.6816771

 

Reply 1
railandsail

Trackmobile

I don't know how to access that google map link you posted?

Interestingly I purchased a couple of trackmobiles over the past year. Eventually I'd like to get them modified to flashing light versions like the one I've posted a link to on this forum.  https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/adding-lights-to-a-bli-trackmobile-12200739

I'm also going to tweak a few old dockside steamers to convey the old style vs new style small switchers.

I wasn't so much concerned about the prototype nature of the ownership and operation of such a switcher. I was just looking to have one more switching operation on my layout,....operations that have never held a great interest to me, but may in the future.

 

 

Reply 1
ACR_Forever

Access that link?

Cut and paste.

Reply 1
CAR_FLOATER

Like most Walthers kits....

This is a woefully inadequate structure meant to represent a much larger industry. This building represents but one undersized part of even the smallest cement mill. Even if you only want it to serve as a cement company distribution silo, then it's actually on the scale of being too big. I say this to make you aware that what Greg says is right - it's too small and not placed correctly to have it's own switcher. But hey, "it's your railroad"

Reply 1
Chris VanderHeide cv_acr

Placement

Placement on the siding is fine... it should be in the middle so cars can be pulled past for loading, and it appears more or less dead centre. However, your spot capacity is only about three cars (1 in the shed, 2 out to the side) which is no where near rating a switcher to move them. They'd use a cable winch.

Reply 1
railandsail

Center Placement & Size of Industry

Regrettable many model railroaders don't have the space on their layouts to properly represent large industries,...so many of us get along with a representation as presented by the cornerstone structures,....the Medusa cement structure is likely one of those.

I did try (am trying) to locate the plant centrally over the track spur such that at least 2 (maybe 3) cars could be waiting to unload, then one inside the shed, then one outside the shed having finished unloading. With that switcher and its track, there might also be 2 empties waiting over there,... (or room for 2 empties). Perhaps this silo facility property was limited in size for construction of a bigger plant, but the owners felt that could be augmented by quicker operations,...thus the need for a switcher, even if an older used engine??

And perhaps these same owners are also owners of the brick plant right across the mainline tracks. A switcher engine could come in handy for both facilities?.

BTW that switcher engine could move between the two plants by 2 different routes,...one utilizing a zig-zag route across the the mainlines, and one route via backside tracks thru the peninsula industrial area.

Reply 1
railandsail

Switcher Engine Storage & Use?

This exercise brings up another question. Where do many railroad modelers provide for their switcher engine storage,...(if they make use of such engines)?
I don't seem to recall a lot of details or discussions of this?
 

Just found this very interesting discussion,.....
Switching areas without dedicated switcher      https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/switching-areas-without-dedicated-switcher-12215013

 

...and another short, but interesting discussion,      https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/operations-interchanges-and-transfer-runs-12189449

 

 

Reply 1
Ken Rice

Plant switcher storage

The only industry I'm familiar with that had it's own switcher is the flour mill in Ayer, MA ( https://goo.gl/maps/pQ7gwbdGcpn1w1727).  Originally New England Milling Co, they had an NW2 I think it was, reporting marks NEMCO 1000, which occasionally got stored in the unloading shed but mostly lived it's entire live sitting outside either behind the silos or next to the parking lot.

A photo of it parked by the parking lot with a derail set in front of it: http://photos.nerail.org/s/?p=184871

The mill is on a loop, the switcher was used to move blocks of loads and empties around the loop up until maybe 10 years ago when they started getting unit grain trains, which now get pulled through the loop by their road power half a train at a time.  Not sure what happened to NEMCO 1000.

To go a little further off on a tangent, they always had a scraper and a broom on the switcher.  The scraper was to scrape the biscuits off the hood - flour would spill onto it from the truck loading chutes sometimes, and if it was raining, well, biscuits.

Reply 1
ChiloquinRuss

A couple of comments, first

A couple of comments, first off I like the use of that space with a large eye catching industry.  I have a concern on placing it entirely on a curve because I believe the sidewall clearances for that structure are designed for straight through access not on a curve.  Double check the placement and alignment with coupled cars on that curve, look for equipment hangover on the inside of the curve and end of car hangover on the outside of the curve.  Last comment the only industries that I recall from my travels that had dedicated switchers were Foster Farms in CA and Coors Beer in CO.  Looking good, and I agree with the above posters, it's your railroad!    Russ

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1807374

https://ziegenhals.org/gallery2/v/lee/Colorado2011/IMG_8910.JPG.html

http://trainmtn.org/tmrr/index.shtml  Worlds largest outdoor hobby railroad 1/8th scale 37 miles of track on 2,200 acres
Reply 1
railandsail

Medusa Cement

I've always liked that structure, particularly with all the roof details. Over the years I've seen a lot of variations on the use of it at various train shows & club layouts. That one I have pictured is a rather used one with the truck doors on the wrong end (for my use). I also have another used one from that same fellow that I will have to inspect. And I have new one if all else fails.
 

I was trying to get a straight portion in that siding track, but I don't have room in that corner for it. I do believe I can just make the doors accommodate the cars. The radi right now is a combo of 24"& 26".

 

 

Reply 1
Greg Baker Mountaingoatgreg

Switcher Storage

In modern times they usually have a spot to tie up the engine that is easily accessible to the crew, fuel and servicing. They often have a stub track or lead that they use exclusively for this power and when they are done they duck into this track for the railroad to come and pick up the cars. The area where they service the engine sometimes is paved or has absorbent matting. There is usually some sort of structure to store sand, brake shoes, air hoses, and other parts to keep things running. Fancier locations I have seen have a small pit to do running gear inspections and I have seen where larger complexes that own their own cars will use these tracks to make repairs. The servicing is sometimes contracted out to a local railroad, short line, or contractor to keep things running. I have also seen some pretty interesting modifications to this captured switchers such as tinted windows, handing wall A/C, hot plates, stereo systems. Etc. 

Reply 1
Russ Bellinis

It is to small to be a cement plant.

It is much more like a ready mix dealer that would load cement trucks from the silos.  I think the ready mix places I've seen actually have a track where the cement hoppers drop their loads into a pit with a conveyor to take the cement up to load the silo from the top.  The problem with your plant is it isn't big enough to be a cement manufacturing plant, but as a dealer it doesn't have a place for trucks to load out.  

The Cemex Plant in Victorville, Ca is huge.  It has multiple spurs at each end with empties at one end and loads at the other end.  The cars are moved under the silos by a tractor like a large front loader with a coupler instead of a shovel.  On the other side of the silo from where the cars are loaded, is another covered spot where trucks are loaded.  Typically the U. P. had 50-60 covered hoppers spotted at the Cemex plant.  I think Cemex loaded about 20-30 per day, which the U.P. would pick up each night and set out another 20-30 empties for the next day's load out. 

The Cemex Plant is not even the entire facility.  The actual plant where the cement is made is located about 5 miles out in the desert adjacent to the gypsum mine.  The Cement is made at the plant by the mine and comes to the back side of the Victorville plant in open hopper filled with what they called "pellets".  The peellets were about the size of baseballs, and were dumped out the bottom of the hoppers into a conveyer to transferred them to the top of the grinder where the pellets were ground to fine power.  Coming out of the grinder, they went into the silo where the cement cound then be loaded into the rail cars or into cement trucks. for dealers.

I even went on a service call once to a construction site at the Prado Dam in Corona, Ca. to repair a refrigerated trailer.  At the construction site next to the dam what they had was called a "batch plant".  It was where I found out that some of the products mixed with cement to make some types of concrete has to be kept refrigerated!  In fact talking to the guys mixing the concrete I first found out that there are a bunch of different mixes depending on what the concrete was being used for and how strong they wanted it!  Needless to say the concrete that we would make a patio out of is different than the concrete mix used for highways, and that is a different mix from what is used to make a dam.

The Medusa plant should be a dealer, or a batch plant, and should be on a straight track with another sheltered opening on the other side where trucks are loaded.  You also need a parking lot for a dozen or so cement mixer trucks.  A batch plant might only have a few trucks and keep them going in a circlular patteren loading concrete, taking it ot the construction site and dumping the load and then returning to the batch plant to pick up another load.  In the case of a batch plant, cars were often parked away from the construction site and workers ferried in vans to the construction site.

It might be an ideal industry for a corner with the silos on a straight track beyond the corner.  The switcher might belong to the railroad which would bring a half dozen or so cars in and pull them through simulating unloading them and then move onto staging where they would go to loaqd out at a cement manufacturing site.  The parking lot for the Cement trucks as well as cars for the workers and drivers could be back in the corner.  A covered load out area would be directly behind the silos. 

Reply 1
Pennsy_Nut

Russ is right!

I live in Midlothian TX where we have 3 cement plants. All 3 are huge. No where near as small as what you are attempting to do. And from what i can see, each one has capacity of 100 cars or more.

Morgan Bilbo, DCS50, UR93, UT4D, SPROG IIv4, JMRI. PRR 1952.

Reply 1
jeffshultz

Looks like a bit larger idea of this place

Eugene, Oregon: 

It's a manufacturing facility for Oldcastle Infrastructure (https://oldcastleinfrastructure.com/) they make things like concrete vaults. 

orange70.jpg
Jeff Shultz - MRH Technical Assistant
DCC Features Matrix/My blog index
Modeling a fictional GWI shortline combining three separate areas into one freelance-ish railroad.

Reply 1
ctxmf74

Cement industries

are not just one type. A cement plant is huge and makes cement from raw materials. A redimix plant or batch plant use sand and gravel  and cement to make concrete so needs sand and gravel along with cement storage. A cement distributor could have just cement silos similar to Brian's model.The size and number of silos would depend on the size of area served and the local demand, also on the price of land where it is located, in a city they might have less capacity due to land cost but more turnover of product due to demand.For the railroad this would mean less cars per visit but more visits per week......DaveB

Reply 1
Ken Rice

Trackmobile pads

Interesting place Jeff.  Seems to have capacity to unload about a dozen cars at a time.  And they have a track mobile.  But perhaps the most interesting detail is the concrete pads for the track mobile to get on and off the track.

Reply 1
jeffshultz

I hadn't noticed those pads...

But you are right, those are spaced out perfectly for getting the trackmobile on and off the tracks. 

My basic thought in seeing it as I drove by was, "Oh goody, an excuse to have cement hoppers as through traffic!" since my layout depicts, roughly, the same railroad, if several dozen miles north of this location. 

orange70.jpg
Jeff Shultz - MRH Technical Assistant
DCC Features Matrix/My blog index
Modeling a fictional GWI shortline combining three separate areas into one freelance-ish railroad.

Reply 1
railandsail

Misleading Designation/Name

Perhaps somewhere along in this discussion the designation as a 'plant' got injected, even by myself at one point. The Walther's structure is NOT a cement plant, and the reason I used this description in my opening post, " I am including a Walther's Medusa Cement structure". I did NOT refer to it as a plant.

I do know that cement manufacturing is a lot more involved, and requires a much bigger facility than this Walther's structure. This is a cement distribution facility for already manufactured cement product, and as such it is sized accordingly/correctly in many instances.

There are truck loading doors on the original kit, and on the one I have here,...they are just glued on the opposite end from where I want them. That will need to be changed.

It might be great for some to have all the delivery trucks and employee cars, etc, etc. BUT as modelers we have to put a limit on what we can include. My limit is the silo structure with some of its topside details, and the siding track(s) that keep it working as a part of the railroad theme,....not where and how that cement gets utilized.

 

 

Reply 1
ChiloquinRuss

Clearance

I played around a little bit with your curve and what I perceive to be a doorway clearance issue.  Something to play with I think.   Russ  

overhang.JPG 

http://trainmtn.org/tmrr/index.shtml  Worlds largest outdoor hobby railroad 1/8th scale 37 miles of track on 2,200 acres
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