Alt

Uses way fewer switches, is more flexible and much simpler.

Crew size

Several things going on here.

If you are flat switching, you have to be able to accelerate and stop the cut rapidly.  You can't do that with 100 car cuts, so they would break the track into smaller cuts of 25-45 cars or so to switch it.

In a yard with AD tracks the AD tracks are the length of a train,  the class tracks are 1/3 to 1/2 that length.  You couldn't swing a "whole train" in one move if you wanted to.  In a yard without AD tracks, the class tracks are probably going to be shorter than a "train" so the trains are going to double in and out anyway.

Passing signals, communication, is exactly as your friend described, very slow.  Each brakeman had to to relay the signal back to the engineer, he had to see the signal, then repeat it, then the engineer had to act on it, then the equipment has to react.  Throw in the fact that the cut normally has no air on it so its only the engine brakes controlling the move, its dicey on a long cut or a long joint.

I like that design Dave

It's simpler, and smaller.  It doesn't have an "escape route" for any motive power try from the Northbound Trains that are trying to return to the Power Yard should the Yard Crew be moving a Southbound Train from the Classification Tracks to an A/D Track.  I am presuming that shouldn't be too much a concern.  If a Road Crew has to wait a few minutes for the Yard Crew to no longer be in the way, so be it.  Would that be up to the Yard Master, and before Radio's how would the Yard Master Communicate with either the Road Crew or the Yard Crew to give orders who can move when?  

This was, in part, what I was trying to figure out in the other thread which morphed into the discussion about how the NYCS and P&A interchanged cars with each other.  But what started it all, was should a yard with designate A/D tracks have multiple paths for Road Motive Power to move while Yard Crews do their work on the A/D Tracks.

Sorry your answers, create more questions.  I drive my doctors nuts as they give me answers and then I have more follow up questions as I want to understand the what and why of what they just said to me.  

Thanks.

Ken L

Conflicts

An engine move is relatively quick, crews can talk to each other and in the 1940's and 1950's there were intercom and loud speaker systems in the yards so the yardmaster could talk to the crews.

Even with your design, if the yard crew is shoving AD1 and the power is coming out of AD 2 or 3, the power's going to have to wait.

And here is the Southern End (sans Power Yard)

2 crossovers

I added 2 crossovers.  You now can get from any class or AD track to the main.

Forgot that line...

Thanks Dave,

That line is in my hand drawing, just over looked it when drawing it in paint.  

Hopefully this simplified arrangement (for both ends) will do the job.  It sure will make it easier to fit in the space I need it to fit in.  

Ken L

Moving Multiple Cuts or Whole Train on the Layout?

< < <

I plan on having trains 25-45 cars long, but that is representing a train 2x-3x it's actual size.  Should I have the yard crews moving cuts no more than 15 cars, or should I have them move the entire train only to make up for time that the model loses in comparison to the prototype when classifying cars?  I'm asking anyone's and everyone's input here so I can make a decision following Rule #1, just wanted to know what others think.  I want to find the right balance between following the Prototype while still making things manageable and enjoyable for the people actually working this yard! 

Thanks all.
Ken L. 

Now there is an issue with Local Passenger Train...

OK,

By simplifying things as I have decided to do by having the NYCS interchange cars with the P&A via a Transfer Job between the two yards (Erie & South Erie), eliminating the WYE and reorienting South Erie Yard to in a N-S direction instead of E-W, I need some ideas on how to deal with the Local Passenger Trains that originate and terminate at South Erie.  

In the previous versions of the Layout Design, the facilities other than the station itself for any passenger cars was represented in staging.  Now the Staging Yard is too far away as the end of staging that was on the former west end (now north end) side of the South Erie yard is the same distance as between towns, too far away to be considered close to the yard and the engine facilities.  

The first Local departs South Erie at 6 AM for Pittsburgh PA.  It's companion, the Northbound Local from Pittsburgh is scheduled to arrive into South Erie at 10 AM

The second Local departs South Erie at 4PM for Pittsburgh with the Northbound Local scheduled to arrive into South Erie at 8PM.

After the passengers depart the train at South Erie, the cars need to go somewhere.  Would a two track siding towards the one end of the Freight Yard be sufficient?  What would need to be done with the Coaches in between runs.  Obviously the single baggage car from one end to the other, but that is a simple run-around move.  There is no diner or sleeper cars to worry about. 

Thanks all.

Ken L

 

Local

Why?

They at the very least need to get off the Mainline

As the Station (at the moment) is on the Main.  So a single track siding would be enough then? 

Ken L. 

Station

Once again had to assume there was more than just a main track, since don't have any drawings of what facilities are there, and the previous drawings showed something more than a main at the passenger station.  I would think if you put a couple station tracks and maybe a short track for the Post Office it would be enough.  I am assuming that a "local" might have a baggage/RPO or a combine and a couple coaches.

What happened to the rest of the facilities you drew earlier?

Those tracks were eliminated...

..since the that entire area was wiped off the map, literally.  Everything on that side of the WYE is now gone, and the NYC 1st Class trains heading from Buffalo to Pittsburgh (i.e. Limited's and M&E trains) originate on the North (formerly West) end of the Freight Yard.  These trains originally didn't pass the Freight Yard, now they do. 

I should also mention, as I have been redrawing the Locomotive Service Facility, the idea of having the Coaling Tower (based on the Tichy 400 Ton Coal Tower) service not only the two tracks entering/leaving the Roundhouse, but the third track "chute" could service the Mainline Track as well.  The idea being, before the NYCS started eliminating the use of Steam Locomotives, the NYCS Limited's & M&E trains would need to resupply their Coal and Water Supply at South Erie before proceeding Southbound.  To minimize delay, the Station was placed near the tower so this resupply would occur while Passenger's embarked/disembarked.  

Ken L 

Map

Can't comment unless I know how stuff is arranged.

I am able to fit one station track....

Here is what I have drawn thus far:

 

So the Station track can hold one train.  But it either:

A) needs to go somewhere to make room for the Limited's that would drop off the few passengers that are transferring to the Local as the Limited's will not make any other station stops.  

OR

b)  The Local is parked there, and the Station track is long enough to allow passengers access to the MAIN Track and the Limited's stop at the Station on the MAIN Track.  


That is my idea so far.  If there are huge red flags with such an arrangement, please say so.  Thanks.

Ken L. 
 

MACRO

Where is this in relationship to anything?  Its like you are discussing building a skyscraper, asking about the design and you show a picture of a brick.

Going with how you had originally saw things..

Since I have eliminated the WYE at South Erie, and the cars being interchanged with the NYCS and P&A is going to be between South Erie Yard and Erie Yard, going with how you had originally envisioned things.  

As for the Passenger Trains, they either Originate in Buffalo or Pittsburgh and head towards the other city.  The Northbound Limited's will NOT stop at South Erie because passengers who board at Pittsburgh, are heading for either Erie or Buffalo, so that train stops only at Erie (in Staging).  The Southbound Buffalo to Pittsburgh Train WILL stop at South Erie, in case there are passengers who board in Buffalo and want to stop at a station prior to Pittsburgh.  Passengers in Pittsburgh who want to stop at South Erie can take the Local.  

For the Local Passenger Trains (there will be physically two sets of Passenger Cars.  The AM Northbound becomes the PM Southbound, and vice versa) And once the Local arrives at the Station at South Erie, it will stay there, with one of the Yard Crews moving the one Baggage Car from the one end to the opposite end as South Erie is so small, having a Post Office served by rail would not be practical.  Maybe in the 1930s and 1940, but not in 1953.  I just received a copy of the book, REA/Railway Express an Overview by V.S. Roseman, and i hope it provides some insight at to how spread out REA offices were.  REA was today's FedEx and UPS, and they are located at several locations, but not in every town.  So would South Erie (being less than 15 miles away from Erie, PA) would the REA bother having an office at South Erie??  

So here is the System Map of the discussed area.  

Terminate

Why to P&A local trains terminate at S Erie?

The MP did something similar back in the 1960's when it was trying to cause the passenger service on one line to fail.  They stopped the trains outside of downtown with no way to connect to any other trains.  Completely killing the passenger service in about 6 months.  Is that the P&A's strategy?

South Erie is the Northern Terminus of the P&A

The P&A has no further stations north of South Erie.  I don't see how the P&A Local could go any further.

What benefit to the NYCS would there be for them to have to handle the coaches and baggage car of a P&A train?  The Buffalo-Pittsburgh Train provides the benefit of reaching Pittsburgh faster than via the P&LE.  And for passengers coming from Pittsburgh, to reach Buffalo. 

Again, I could be totally misunderstanding the Logic and Reasoning the prototype would use.  This is what seems logical to me, but that doesn't translate into what the Prototype did.  

Ken L. 

Can't get there from here

I live in Franklin.

I want to go to Buffalo.

The NYC through trains don't stop at Franklin.  The P&A local does.

I take the P&A local to S Erie.  The P&A doesn't go further.  The NYC trains don't stop at S Erie.

How do I get to Buffalo?  There is NO connection for the 20 miles from S Erie to Erie.

Since you keep wanting to give dozens of NYC trains trackage rights over the P&A, why can't the P&A passenger trains have trackage rights into the depot at Erie?

They make a station stop at S Erie, they run to Erie, staging, you turn the train, they come back out later.  They work just like a NYC through train, as far as turning, they just make all the stops on the P&A.

Erie has a Union Station....

so this makes sense, was served by NYC, PRR, and possibly NKP, so it stands to reason with trackage rights another tenant railroad could serve as well.  

PS the Union Station is home to a wonderful brew pub, as well as Logistics Plus which manages logistics for GE Transportation.

Peace Bill

Switching Multiple Cuts or Whole Train

It depends. As a new yard master on a large model railroad I faced that choice. Let me set the scene. This location had both an eastbound yard on one side of the main and a westbound yard on the other. The westbound yard had a single arrival track. If it was blocked an arriving westbound could be received in one of two eastbound arrival/departure tracks causing a future blockage of the main when switching it to the westbound yard. Or it could arrive via the westbound switching lead into one of the w/b classification tracks blocking the lead as it arrived. Neither option was very efficient.

The first few sessions I tried to be more realistic and take blocks off the arriving trains. But I must also add that the railroad's owner/trainmaster/chief of everything took great joy in slamming that yard with freight traffic just before the morning eastbound passenger rush would have to take the main through the yard. The first couple of sessions were very frustrating. Then I learned what he was doing and started to just pull the entire first arrival into the switching lead before I even looked at the car cards to plan my switching of the train.

That was my first lesson (on that layout) to do whatever it took to keep things moving.

Don Trettel