Bench Work

Kalmbach who produces MR mag put out a book on benchwork a long time ago. Might be worth picking up.

3 kinds of bench work. Table top--a frame with a sheet of plywood on top. usually a 4x8 if it is HO.

Open grid which is probably what you have seen. Mostly built with 1x4s and is what supports most flat top RRs.

L-girder--this is why I recommended you check out the book above. A you-tube video will probably have a good explanation. Build some legs and then the longest pieces and the cross pieces are both made of L-girders which are made from 1x2s or 1x4s and 1x2s. The advantage comes from how it is put together. Once the legs and the long pieces cut to the length of a section you want to build let's say each section is going to be 8' long are put together. Then the cross pieces are laid on top of that and screwed on. The Cross pieces are much easier to move when built this way if one of them is in the way of a switch machine. This is assuming you haven't started scenery yet. All cross pieces are screwed on from underneath the long pieces.

Disadvantage is cost. You are going to spend almost twice as much for lumber as you would for open grid style.

Advantage of both styles is it is way easier to make elevation changes. Draw out your roadbed on a sheet of plywood, cut it out using a jig saw and lay it in place. You will need connecting pieces for any joints and make them at least a foot long. Screw them together with screws short enough not to poke out the other side of your roadbed. Use what we call risers to gain elevation.

Get some quality lumber, some of it is so bad you wonder who is going to buy it. One advantage of L-girder is making an L-girder can take out a slight warp and prevent others.

Hope this helps,  Jack

PS, I used L girder for a few years and quit because of the cost and some folks claim it is easier to build with. I found it more labor intensive.

i would pay attention....

to turnout location vis-à-vis structure.  I had a few locations where benchwork structure prevented me from installing Bluepoint switch machines...

Sounds like a lot of fun ahead

I suggest you try to let go of that wish and plan to build just the way you've described but with the expectation that you'll tear it out and do it all over again. The very essence of this hobby is learning from experience - that's not something to shy away from, and you'll relax and enjoy the process more if you decide that in advance and plow ahead unhindered by angst over the myriad decisions you'll be making. 

Nice big room, money not an issue, woo-hoo, have a ball!

Jeff Allen 

My Amateur Experience

Starting small and gradually enlarging is a good idea. An along-the wall is my preference as it reduces the fill-in-the-blank areas with something.

1. Never put anything where you can't easily reach it. That means you will need to have aisleways or duckunders/liftouts for an "island". At my age (79) the duckunders as well as working beneath the layout is a problem, and liftouts require some solid construction and alignment.

2. I'm in On30, so weight of the trains, scenery, & sheets of styrofoam are not a problem so long as everything is properly braced to prevent sagging. I used 1 x 3 PVC boards for the L-girder & support legs. It's about 30% more expensive than high-quality lumber but is much lighter & cleaner to cut/drill, and does not expand or contract with temperature changes. Wallboard screws make the assembly easy. At my local Home Depot, they are found in the lumber dept. They are steel; I hate Phillips-head screws (I manage to strip the heads of about 80%) but with a power screwdriver they can be inserted/removed easily.

3. How many trains you can run simultaneously can be an issue. Keeping an eye on more than one might tax your capabilities. Don't ask how I know this! Can you see them all? Can you reach them to stop a cornfield meet or cope with a derailment while the other trains are running? Setting up "independent loops" so they can run without any interference with each other would work.

4. I am running "dead rail" (battery-operated) with radio control (Rail-Pro). It means I don't need to worry about track insulating gaps,  wiring, or track/wheel cleaning. A disadvantage is endurance of the  batteries (about an hour, which is about all my arthritic legs can take), and a derailed engine will continue running until it encounters something solid: scenery, a structure, the floor.

Good luck! This forum is an excellent place to learn and share. It's easier to ask a dumb question than correct a dumb mistake.

I would not use 4 x 8.

Unless it is in the middel of the room so that you can walk all the way around it, you will find the back side out of reach.  I would suggest you use the "TOMA" method that Joe suggested.  Build one module at a time.  Take your    4x8 sheet and cut it in half lengthwise giving you 2 2x4 sections, or build an open frame or "L" girder 8 feet long x2 feet wide.  Install it against one wall.  Plan your entire layout and start with your first 8 feet.  You can get a 4x8 of cheap plywood or chip board or even mdf and cut it into 2 4x4 pieces and put return loops on each one.  You can put one at each end for continuous running.  That will allow you a 22-23 inch radius which is good for most rolling stock except long passenger cars and big steam engines.  Put a low barier on 2 sides, the side at the end and the side toward the center of the room to keep trains from falling to the floor if they derail in the curve.  If you layout is going to have elevation changes, make the legs of the 2 turn back sections adjustable so that they can be raised or lowered as needed to match the elevation changes.  The alternative is to just have some extra lumber to make different legs if the layout changes elevation and you need to adjust the height of the 4x4 sections to match.

You can finish the 8 foot section that will be part of your completed railroad with your track, switch machines, and scenery, and using the 2 4x4 return loops you can have continuous running.  The first 8 feet can be broken down into 2 2'x4' sections to make them easier to move into or out of the room if you wish.  You can lay your track out, install switches and switch machines and any switches you want for mainline, sidings, spurs, etc.  Finish scenery on that first 8 feet.  Use the 2 4x4's one at each end to allow continuous running, and then once the first 8 feet is done, build bench for the next 4 feet, 6 feet, or 8 feet as you wish.  Then you just repeat until your layout is finished.  As you are working on the individual sections, you can experiment, make changes, you may even start with a flat top and decide to rip it out and make an open grid or "L" girder if you change your mind along the way.

You can build a little at a time, decide if what you built is what you want or change it as you go.  This way you don't "bite off more than you can chew" at the start, but you are working toward a finsished layout.  You can also do bench work for a small section, then lay track, then do some scenery, or just run a train.  You won't get discouraged by not being able to get the layout finished quickly.

layout height

Don't forget to establish the layout height.  I set mine at 56" so that I can sit in a chair when wiring and installing turnout machines.  I also recessed the front board about 2" so that I could put the electrical connections within easy reach.

Good luck.

There are a lot of good nodes here on most of your decisions.

Ken

  "I've seen a bunch of

Large flat sheets such as plywood work well for areas that are flat like rail yards city scenes, etc.  Open top benchworks better for areas with hills and valleys as they can be formed with screen wire and plaster or other shape in place methods. Experienced modelers use either or both depending on what they are trying to build. First thing to decide is what kind of scenery will you build then the support needed for it will become more apparent. The contours of the finished surface are all that shows in the end so the benchwork can be anything that supports the top well. The choice of benchwork method and materials might come down to what kind of tools you have on hand, what experience you have working with various materials, and perhaps cost and availability of materials in you area. As you proceed any questions you have can be answered in more detail , just start a thread or layout blog and you'll get plenty of advice, probably some will be from folks doing a layout similiar to what you are doing which will help avoid those pitfalls :> ) .....DaveB

I agree about not using 4x8. 

I agree about not using 4x8.  By it's dimensions, it limits curve radii and therefore what you can run on such tight curves as fit on the 4x8 - typically 18 and 22 inch sectional track curves.  If you at least go a few inches wider, you can fit more generous curves which will work better with longer rolling stock.

By far open-grid is not limited to flat-top RR.  Not by a long shot.  Open grid can be used for flat top area's, namely staging yards or regular yards topped with Homasote it's true.

But open grid can also have mainline with terrain rising or falling below the track grade using risers, just like you might do with L-girder, which is a bit more advanced in construction process; either one will work so if you are not comfortable building L-girder, open grid will work just fine.

Howdy

Look around at different track plan to see what options there are.  There are lots of books of track plans out there, wouldn't hurt to buy one or two to get some ideas.  The problem with a 4x8 sheet of plywood is it  limits the radius of the curves.  You don't say what scale you are using, but if its HO you will be limited to 22" or less.  That will limit what engines you can run. 

Plus a 4x8 needs a walkway all around it.  That means it actually has a footprint of about 8 ft by 12 ft.  If you put a loop of track around a 4x8 you get a run of about 12 ft .  If you take that same 8x12 room and put an "around the walls" type layout, where the layout is a narrower shelf around all four walls, you get about 30-32 ft run.  Same basic space and almost 3x the run.

If you want to build a 4x8 as a starter to get your feet wet, that's a good idea and plan that after you design the "final" layout plan you might want to tear it down and reuse the lumber and track, but not the design.

If you can find any modelers in the area, after the COVOD restrictions lift, try to contact them and see what they are doing. Operations Special Interest Group (OpSig) and National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) may be good resources for finding other modelers.  

Take some time and do some research to figure out what you like.  Its better to take several months and do some investigating and thinkin' and end up with something you'll be happy with .

Walk before you Run

4x8 is “old train table” thinking.  Made the same mistake when I first got back into the hobby because that was what I had growing up.  

I would start with a section along the wall no more than 26 inches wide.  This will allow you to get something running in a short amount of time and the ability to expand.

That said “along the walls” is the best route to go in my opinion.  You can of course have peninsulas.  Good rules to go by is the entire benchwork is easily accessible and to avoid being crowded. (Aisle should be at least 3-feet wide)

As in a previous post, I would checkout some Model Railroader books, (Kalmbach publishing), on benchwork design and construction.  I also sense maybe you are new to modern model railroad layout design and operations.  So I would look at Lance Mindheim books on model railroading as well as other publications covering design and building of medium to large size layouts.

Keep us posted!

Joe

Replies to all

Wow the response to this post has been amazing.  There are a handful of forums out here and this one I felt had the nicest folks in it who sincerely wish to help each other, so here I am. 

I WON’T be going with the simple 4x8 starter table but will be using all your recommendations for L-Girder or Open Bench.  I think Open Bench is also referred to as Butt-Joint, is that correct?  Coincidently I ordered and received, same day as yesterdays replies came in, How to Model Railroad Benchwork by Linn Westcott.  So I have my highlighter out and am taking some good notes based on your corresponding recommendations.

I’m pretty darn handy so none of the construction plans/info in the book are beyond my skill set.

Jackh - You will need connecting pieces for any joints and make them at least a foot long. Screw them together with screws short enough not to poke out the other side of your roadbed. Use what we call risers to gain elevation

Are you saying the vertical, 1x2 or 1x4’s that would stick up to support the roadbed I just cut out? Almost like an upside down “U” if it’s going to be a wide bit of rail (multi-rail section)? Or just a simple pedestal with simple horizontal topper on top, to lay and attach the roadbed?

Rich S – Gotcha, and with the L-G I see I can reposition the girders if needed.

Sunacres (Jeff) – As I’ve gotten older I’ve pretty much come to the realization to not take life seriously so, with that said, nope I won’t let my head explode if I have to “redo” something.  The room size, yep, I was originally thinking, “What can I do with it” Maybe a pool table, or nice couch and TV, or other man cave-y type thing.  Then I though, I already have a living room in the house, and I don’t have a ton of friends, don’t drink any more, and won’t play pool with anyone other than maybe 3 or 4 times a year.  Thus awesome long term fun with a nice monster sized HO train setup.

F134kilmil Steve – 1. I say it now at 57, I can duck under but 79, hummm will I regret it? I’m more apprehensive about a liftout or folding up section. I may stick to around the walls with a peninsula out in the middle-ish. 2. I’m going to look at the PVC boards you’re talking about but unless I’m “wowed”  I’ll use wood. 3. What does the term “cornfield meet” mean?

Russ Bellinis – Nope, no 4x8 planned now based on your and other advise.  What does TOMA mean?What would a disadvantage be to having sections vary between your recommended 24” wide (along a wall) vs maybe 30 or 36?  I can still easily reach into the section at that width to do work. I like the concept of 4x4’s for loop sections.  And, yes, segmenting the project so as to reach small goals or milestones along the way.

Cp5170 Ken – That was something I did wrong 25+ years ago, the 4x8 was too tall.  So 56” is a good height for viewing as well as working.  The advantage with years ago is I didn’t have to bend over to work on anything but kids, now grandkids,,,, then/now would not be able to see the thing unless held by pappy or some other adult.

Ctxmf74 DaveB – All good.  You mention starting a thread or layout blog.  Is this post considered a thread?  I was going to keep all my questions here over the days/months in this one spot.  What is the blog you’re talking about, would it be better there vs. here?  I’m not overly familiar with this forum yet.

Jimfitch -  Great photos that help a lot!  A picture is worth a bazillion words! So am I correct in saying that your photos display Butt-Joint (open grid)? That is what I’m thinking of will work best for me.  I can always sink a section or partial section to create deeper depressions. What are you doing with the square rubber floormats?

Dave1905 – I bought 4 different MR books with track plans to get a bunch of ideas. I am NOT in a hurry and have patience to go slow and methodical.  The room builder has sheetrock scheduled for the end of January.  In the meantime I’ll be designing, getting stuff together and working on small building and structure creation for placement later.  There are no modelers near me as no one is virtually near me, (by design )

Musgrovejb -Joe I see there are a few software programs around to help with the design, are any of those worthwhile? Is there one that is better than the other regardless of cost?  Just to ask again,,, what would be the downside of 30-36” instead of 26” if I can physically reach into 30ish inches without a problem?   Yes, new to all the awesome and amazing looking digital and LED lighting incorporation into the project.  It’s a bit down the ‘tracks’ but after looking over what Digitrax has on the market now,,, this is going to be very very much fun!

Thanks everyone, I look forward to hearing from you all.

Lone Wolf

With nobody around you, that also will affect your choice of track plan and operation.

You may want to design your layout for operation by one, maybe two people.  That means you can model a branch that only runs one or two trains a day, or you can have multiple loops or double track to operate one or more trains continuously, depending on your preferences.  What that translates to is if you model a single track line you don't have to worry about passing sidings as much, controls can be simpler, yards and engine facilities can be smaller, etc.  Conversely it could be worth it to have a bigger staging yard, so you can have multiple trains queued to run if running is your thing.

TOMA is:The One Module At a time aproach to building a layout.

I would use what I call a modified butt joint.  2 ways to do it.  Screws do not hold well in the end grain of wood. 

1st way to do it is to buy a bunch of steel angle brackets.  If your frame is 1x2 use 1/2 inch x #8 or #10 screws and use the angle brackets to set your 90 degree corners on the ends and any cross braces.  

2nd method, get a 2x2 and cut to the width of your frame work.  Example: if using 1x2 cut blocks 1 3/4" long for the corners.  Glue and screw the 2x2 blocks into each place that you have a corner running 1 3/4 inch long #8 or #10 screws from the 1x2 into the wood block.  The block sets your @90 degree corner, and you are not trying to screw into an end grain. 

Try to get straight lumber for your 1x2 stock.  At the modular club I belong to, we had so much trouble finding straight pine or fir at the big box store (read impossible) that we now recommend using Poplar.  It is probably the least expensive hardwood that you can buy and is typically straighter than the soft wood. 

TOMA

The third way

Russ, you left out my favorite way of fastening a butt joint - pocket screws.

https://www.kregtool.com/CLP_what-makes-a-pocket-hole-joint-strong.html

Faster then adding a corner block, much stronger than screwing into end grain, and you get to use a fun jig.

Open grid and pocket screws

@ Fizbin,

I add my vote to the open grid like Jim Fitch's excellent photo example, and the pocket screws for attaching.  Easy to make changes.  I use the Kreg system on my open grid.

But first, I would strongly recommend that you take some time and go thru the Layout Design Special Interest Group's Primer.  This is a group of experienced modelers who have put together an excellent resource for a novice, beginning with "Why" you build a layout, what it is, and how to do it.

Good luck and keep posting your questions.

Happy Holidays,

Fizbin

Are you saying the vertical, 1x2 or 1x4’s that would stick up to support the roadbed I just cut out? Almost like an upside down “U” if it’s going to be a wide bit of rail (multi-rail section)? Or just a simple pedestal with simple horizontal topper on top, to lay and attach the roadbed?

You need a connecting piece wherever 2 sections of roadbed come together.

The uprights that are used to give elevation changes to the roadbed we call risers. That term temporarily left the memory discs when I was writing out my earlier reply. A riser can be attached to any horizontal piece of benchwork and should be close enough to each other to prevent the roadbed from sagging in-between them. A lot of that depends on what you are using for roadbed and how thick it is. I use 1/2" plywood. Others use 3/4".

Some use spline. For an explanation on spline roadbed I suggest you use the search box in the upper right corner of any MRH page.

I/we all here are probably assuming you are having AC added to your layout room. You know what they say about assuming stuff. Anyway having AC is a great layout saver. Sad story on not having it which is funny now. About 30 yrs ago we moved to MN from southern CA. I put together a small N scale 2x4 layout just to keep my hand in. Built it in the winter and let it sit on top of my dresser which was at eye level for me. Had about a 3 month period where I didn't even look at it. The track was on a sheet of plywood overlaid with a sheet of homosote. IF you know anything about homosote it and water or humidity don't mix all that well and the track had moved enough to resemble a very large pretzel once things warmed up.

Topic change here.

The idea of using a blog or a thread to keep us all informed. Joe announced sometime in the last month? that MRH is going to be getting a major software change I believe around Feb sometime. Blogs will be disappearing and everything will be a thread, Including existing blogs which will be converted.

Layout design software is available from simple ie free stuff to very in-depth, Cad Rail and or 3rd Planit I think it is called. Both of the last run over $100 each and maybe a lot higher. It's been awhile since I looked at either of them .Again the search box can get you around 1/2 dz layout planers. A lot of it just depends on how much of a plan you want before you start. For myself I finialy reached a point where I plan much better in 3 dimensions using track components and some already built up buildings or making a mockup of a building.

Jack

Good ideas from all.

I especially like what Jim Fitch showed in his photos. Looks like a traditional layout. Personally, I would rather use pink foam than homasote. But that's just me. L girder is a bit more work, but can be utilized if your lumber isn't straight and true. And it's also a good idea to think about TOMA or something similar. IF: you think you will ever have to move. (It's called: The best laid plans of mice and men!) Just a couple of ideas for you - fizbin. And why didn't you sign your name? This is a friendly place.

@Fizbin

Hey Fizbin,

24-26 inches wide is the standard for shelf type layouts, (against the wall), but by no means a hard rule.  The most important thing is you can “comfortably” reach all parts of the layout. (Working on the layout and operations)

Remember both layout height and aisle width should also be considered in regards the choosing the width of your layout.  (What can easily be reached at waist height may be a challenge at chest height)

In regards to programs, I used Atlas’ model railroad free layout design software for my layout design.  All I wanted was to create a 2D track plan.  The most important thing being making sure the “idea in my head” was realistic for the space I had.  
 

There are more feature rich design programs available.  However, I am not a big fan of paying for something that might get used once or twice.  
 

joe

Hey Dave, It'll probably be

Hey Dave, It'll probably be just me and maybe a family member or two, so I don't envision having a bunch of different folks running trains.  I understand that part of the hobby and where it looks interesting, technical and a fun challenge, I'm more into the art and scenery aspect,,, at least for now.  You never know though.

Russ, All good, a quick thought though, if I decide to change something later, will I regret using wood glue?  Yes on the poplar, good call. When I was looking closely at those images on page 1 here I could tell that they were either fine pine or maybe even poplar.  They looked super straight and well cut,,, also there was a price tag on each one.  Bulk pine from HD doesn't have a price sticker on each stick,,, at least around here.

Joe, good reasoning on the < 30" width.  Where as I don't plan on ever needing to move the table pieces once constructed, your logic on post construction height and servicing makes sense.  I'll do the searches you recommended and be sure to do them in the morning so as not to dozz off,,, as can happen in the evenings.

Ken, that... is a cool little drill bit to have!  totally on my cool things to buy list!

Dave, that is a good link,,, now I have even more to read, yeee haaaww!

Jack, gotcha on the risers.  AC, at first I was thinking you meant AC as in power,,, and I was thinking daahh of course I'm going to AC in the room.  Then after further (not reading like a guy, as my wife says) I see you meant AC as in HVAC.  Yes a couple of big mini splits, as being in the Hill Country here in Central Texas, it is super hot but the humidity is not that bad. Last week it was 8%.  Summers are about 20%-30% on average. Decades ago we lived in Ohio and the basement had a dehumidifier going 365,,, draining right into a floor drain.  Track planning software, I've already started my search on the ones you mentioned.

Morgan, thanks for the info, somewhere else I read about foam as well.  I used to use that in the way back days.  I still have my styro melting wire/tool thing.  Name wise, I feel more comfortable with just "Fizbin".  It's nothing personal.

Joe, gotcha on not being a hard rule but good to know.  I think I am going to lower the viewing area a bit so kids and such can see it better than adults, so I may vary the width, some spots will be per recommendations here and a few wider,,, this will keep away from the straight lines.  I like curved lines a bunch.

Thanks again to all, you're nice folks and I'll get some images of the room in the next week or two to show you what I have to work within. 

Sorry about the jargon. A

Sorry about the jargon. A cornfield meet is a collision, as opposed to a normal meet where one train takes a siding unti the other has passed.

Cornfield

No need to apologize,   I'll ask if I don't know, which I've learned in my years to not go around chest thumping like a smarty pants know it all.  It never hurts to ask questions. The TOMA thing was another i had no idea on.

Yes I do, do a search for most things.  There have been way more questions that I have had than I ask here and have been able to find most of my answers on my own.  At the same time it's fun to just relax and interact with you all.

Track Planning Software

CadRail and 3rdPlanIt have already been mentioned as commercial track planning software. Both are highly regarded, although I have no direct experience with them. Two other programs you should look at are SCARM, which used to be free but is now $39. There is also a limited free version. An excellent free program is XTrackCad. It has a huge library of track components, in all scales. As powerful as it is, it is relatively easy to use. You can even add track elevations to your plan, and it’ll calculate grades, including helixes. As a bonus, it has a train simulator that allows you to run trains on your plan, before you commit to a design. And when you start to build, you can print out an accurate 1:1 track diagram to help with placement of track.

The developers, though all volunteers, are extremely helpful, and responsive to suggestions and bug reports. Once told of a bug, they’ll often ost a fix within a day or so. And there’s an active groups.io discussion group for the program as well. You should definitely give it a try.

MRH Running Extra

I just bought the annual subscription to MRH RE and very much enjoy reading through the articles.  There's some very inspirational imagery as well.  To tell you how goofy I am, reading like a guy my wife says.  I noticed that Joe Fugate was one of the folks that replied to me on this forum and is the Publisher and more... Another plus, taking an interest and helping out a newbie!  Thanks Joe and of course the rest of you all!

Ron, Great info on the software recommendations.  And "hey" to you folks down-under!

I received a bunch of surprise books from publishers like Kalmbach, also a 2021 Walthers Catalog.  It's funny to compare what's in it and the prices against the 1998 Catalog I dug up.

In between building my Benchwork, which I have an idea in my head now and will be transferring it to paper and the software mentioned above soon, I want to start working on a few pieces of scenerystructures which can be added to the display later. What airbrush should I get?  I used canned propellant before but with the huge amount of work (fun) that will be coming up,I'd like to get a compressor as well.  What would you all say is the better quality of all that is out there?